Are the Allies equal to Yuri...

[Daishi]

...at the battle lab level?

Just out of curiousity. It was inspired because I realized how to balance the Soviet late game vs. Yuri in the project I still have to complete. (thanks Dr. Feel) I now have to know why the Allies cannot hope to beat an experienced Yuri late game with GGIBF spams.

[truefeel]

Depends on how far the game has progressed and wether SWs are involved or not. If you managed as allieds to mass prism tanks and some GGI BFs and a handfull mirages, then you won. However: If you reached battle lab, you still need to produce those things. then it comes down on how far the yuri player is. What you need to do is to kill as much slaves as possible with a few GI IFVs and if possible some buildings very very early on to slow down his unit production and his teching up, giving you time to tech up and make enough units. If you don't do this, you'll loose, wether you reach battle lab or not.

[Bouncing Ball]

I'd say Yuri will beat the allies by far. His defence is much easier in the early fase as he got to B L level and his money goes a lot faster in small moneymaps in the B L level. What is your target to get out GGIBF's? with the time and money you need to build those he creates simple yuriclones..

[SgtRicko]

I'd say the Allies have the edge, thanks to the Chronoshpere and prism tanks being rather economical.

[EliteGi]

Improve the robot tank greatly and you'd be set. If a RT is better than a grizzly (and cheaper... it DOES require power AND RT control center afterall), the allies will actually have a chance vs Yuri.

[SgtRicko]

Improve the robot tank greatly and you'd be set. If a RT is better than a grizzly (and cheaper... it DOES require power AND RT control center afterall), the allies will actually have a chance vs Yuri.

You haven't tried using British snipers against Yuri very much, have you???

[Bouncing Ball]

I'd say the Allies have the edge, thanks to the Chronoshpere and prism tanks being rather economical.

Allright, how many masterminds do you need to kill an army of 20 prismtanks?
And where will you transport your tanks to????

[SgtRicko]

Allright, how many masterminds do you need to kill an army of 20 prismtanks?
And where will you transport your tanks to????

Prism tanks have superior range and speed compared to the mastermind. You'd be able to effectively micro them safely away from the masterminds (can't say the same about the magnetron though). And as for choosing where to chronoshift to, it's easy really, especially if it's against a human opponent who most likely won't have too much defenses up.

[EliteGi]

You haven't tried using British snipers against Yuri very much, have you???
Britain is my preferred allie country, so of course I have. Snipers just aren't an answer to the mastermind/magnetron/gattling tank mix. Robot tanks (if they were beefed up to be actually worth the money) would be an awesome unit vs yuri as yuri doesn't have much anti-armor (without mind control) except the lasher and brute.

Really, it's very hard to take out a decent Yuri player using prisms as he can just keep picking them up and the gattlins easily shoot them out of the sky due to the prisms crappy armour (remember, the magnetron has a two cell range advantage over the prism). If you get GGI BF's, he simply picks them up with the magnetron and captures them with the masterminds. But you can put up a much better fight with BF's and prisms (and mirages spread around the place if there are trees - they rip through gattlins and magnetrons) than you can with grizzly's.

The easiest way to balance yuri, imho, would be to sort the boomer out, improve the robot tank and decrease the mastermind's range (and/or decrease the range of magnetron). And then you are left with the superweapons...

[SgtRicko]

The easiest way to balance yuri, imho, would be to sort the boomer out, improve the robot tank and decrease the mastermind's range (and/or decrease the range of magnetron). And then you are left with the superweapons...

I mostly agree, except for that SW's part. I'd say that Yuri's Supers are fine as is, they really don't need changing too much.

[Daishi]

Robot Tank upgrade sounds good. Hope it'll be all right now that I've nerfed the GGI and Mirage Tank

[EliteGi]

I mostly agree, except for that SW's part. I'd say that Yuri's Supers are fine as is, they really don't need changing too much.
Well there's the trick of transforming slaves into brutes and sending them straight to the grinder, which gives a LOT of money if there are several miners there (say for example there are 5 slave miners, 5 slaves each so 25 slaves, each turned into brutes @ 500 each and sold at half price, so 25*250 = 6250 every time the SW recharges. Maybe have it turn the victims into initiates instead of brutes, meaning it would be less than half the cash when put into the grinders.

[Daishi]

We're not gonna kill it because its not necessarily a balance issue. Yuri's ability to get extra cash by stooping down to new levels is a feature, not a defect. Plus it would take forever to make a Infantry->Initiate animation

[truefeel]

Allright, how many masterminds do you need to kill an army of 20 prismtanks?
And where will you transport your tanks to????

You use mirages on masterminds. prism tanks are for everything else (except slave miners).
Chronosphere is very usefull, but not the way you think. You don't use it chrono your units, but the yuri units to spots where they'll get killed or where they are atleast trapped.

Robot Tank upgrade sounds good. Hope it'll be all right now that I've nerfed the GGI and Mirage Tank

Robo tanks are not worth to build on none-naval maps. simply b/c they have very weak armour (180 armour, compared to the 300 armour of a the grizly) and don't fire on the move.

Guys, remember that we aren't talking about countering one single unit. It's about mixes of units. I'll give ya a typical yuri-allieds game described here:

begin game: scouting is in the advantage of allieds, IF you micro perfectly. brutes are slow and 2 GIs can kill one brute at a time. Dogs are fast enough to get around brutes and kill possible engies. when WF is up, a yuri will pressure with one gatt tank. A good allied player will make 2-3 IFVs and for each IFV one GI. At this point, you need do very much damage to make up for the costs (your economy will be very low at that moment). This by pressure: try to kill his WF if it is possible. This will be most likely very difficult, as he will make tank bunkers. But try it if there's a spot open to get in.Then if that is done or it isn't possible to do, go killing his slaves with those GI IFVs. The yuri player will make this very difficult, as he will of course make units to stop you from doing this. Do hit 'n run and keep your GI IFVs alive.

Midgame: keep doing the things above stated until it becomes too difficult to keep killing slaves. by onw, you should have your economy restored again (make after the GI IFVs only 2-3 miners).If you managed to break his economy that low (which will be very unlikely), so that he isn't able to recuperate in time, you could make a few grizlies, trying to end the game right away. But that's very unlikely, b/c the yuri player will be in most case able to minimize the losses of slaves. At this time, you'll have it as allied player the most difficult time, b/c he will pressure. Just camp behind pillboxes. Keep your army on a few GI/GGI IFVs and do not go offensive, except on one single thing: make 4 harriers (or 3 eagles). Use those on the yuri battle lab, when he has that. Tech up to battle lab.

Late game: Keep killing his battle lab with your harriers/eagles as long as possible. You need to deny him as long as possible high tech units. make, when you have your own battle lab, 7-9 mirages. then after that a GGI BF. Then make many, many prism tanks. If he masses floating disks, make some more GGI BFs. Be carefull with your BFs that they don't get MCed. use mirages on masterminds, BFs on floating disks and prism tanks on everything else. He'll most likely will build a psychic dominator. Be sure you get a chronosphere first. When your chronosphere is ready, chrono some units of your opponent on top if the psychic dominator, killing both the units and the psychic dominator.
Killing an advantaged yuri army is not easy. You'll need to have a very good TC in order to get rid of that army, especially when he uses slave miners as fodder. try to kill the slave miner first or even better: ignore it and fire directly on the yuri units.

[hogo98]

Teams can be equal if you know how to use them. For instance people say Yuri is over powered but its very simple to beat yuri you just have to think tactically or just mass your opponent.

[Daishi]

Teams can be equal if you know how to use them. For instance people say Yuri is over powered but its very simple to beat yuri you just have to think tactically or just mass your opponent.

Unless the Yuri player has a clue what he's doing.

[hogo98]

Well yeah but if the soviet player knows whats he should do then we can get on and each team is fair to be honest i allow Yuri in my games i don't see why people can not seem to beat him or play against the team because they say its cheating i think if you cant beat not or fight Yuri down play YR play RA2.

[YuriAndroklov]

How about this, Yuri send some boomers to the allied base, and when the battle is going he creep some masterminds into your base follow by a 10 or more lasher tanks.:|.

[Daishi]

I allow Yuri in all my games too, because virtually no one knows how to use him properly, and constant Allied/Sov battles get repetitive as years go by. I embrace Yuri, although I do try to balance him.

The thing is, the Soviets have zero counters for gatt + mag + mastermind + lasher combo with perfect micro. Yuri CAN be outmassed, of course, but it takes a hell of a lot more than it does to take out the Allies or Soviets, and if you manage to fail in your magnificent onslaught, which is more than likely, they'll have a few of your units to grind. You have to be really tricky, which is hard in RA2/YR; any solid strategy will just end up with you behind when he breaks out da combo.

I think I may have balanced Allied vs. Yuri, but now I've managed to make the Soviets weak. I may end up using the apocalypse to balance the late game anyway. We want to avoid hopeless situations, so there HAS to be an effective counter for everything.

Alright, not to go off-topic, but is there currently ANY decent use for the Apocalypse?

[Teron]

Chrono-IC striketeam in case you happen to get your hands on Allied technology and have a Prism Tank aversion?

[Daishi]

:rolleyes: I guess that's a no...

[Statalyzer]

I mostly agree, except for that SW's part. I'd say that Yuri's Supers are fine as is, they really don't need changing too much.

Yuri has the best superweapons in the game. Dominator is like the Weather Storm or Nuclear Missile, PLUS it can take over units, PLUS the force shield/iron curtain cannot react to it. The Mutator gives Yuri infinite cash.

If you managed to break his economy that low (which will be very unlikely), so that he isn't able to recuperate in time, you could make a few grizlies, trying to end the game right away. But that's very unlikely, b/c the yuri player will be in most case able to minimize the losses of slaves. At this time, you'll have it as allied player the most difficult time, b/c he will pressure. Just camp behind pillboxes. Keep your army on a few GI/GGI IFVs and do not go offensive, except on one single thing: make 4 harriers (or 3 eagles). Use those on the yuri battle lab, when he has that. Tech up to battle lab.

Even that is tough to do. A few Lashers and Gatts with a single Mag can beat your IFVs or just rush past pillboxes and destroy your war factory. The Gatts also serve to protect his battle lab, since they are easily the best AA weapon in the game - against a good player it will be very tough to destroy the battle lab without losing your entire air force, although if you can multitask well you might be able to have your planes circle around his AA, which he might not move if he's trying to defend elsewhere.

Not saying your strategy is bad, just pointing out to the doubters that Yuri really is imbalanced. Even a good player such as truefeel, with a generally sound strategy, has a very uphill battle against a good player who has used Yuri a few times. Yuri's side really is just more powerful than the other armies in online play. It gets even worse when you play teams, as Yuri mixes with Soviets and Allies very well.

i think if you cant beat not or fight Yuri down play YR play RA2.

I agree in principle, playing RA2 is good not just to avoid Yuri, but because the Allied-Soviet lategame/earlygame balance is better. However, YR also has advantages over RA2, because it has more maps, you can play 3v3 games, and you can pick starting locations so that you don't have teammates be diagonally across from each other.

[truefeel]

yeh, I know it's difficult b/c of the imbalances, so will be every other strategy vs. yuri. You just need to hope that the yuri player makes mistakes.
RA2 is also more competitive. IMO, in YR you can go easily in the top 200 with 0 losses. In RA2, that's very very difficult, b/c there are far more better players there.

[YuriAndroklov]

yeh, I know it's difficult b/c of the imbalances, so will be every other strategy vs. yuri. You just need to hope that the yuri player makes mistakes.
RA2 is also more competitive. IMO, in YR you can go easily in the top 200 with 0 losses. In RA2, that's very very difficult, b/c there are far more better players there.

T_T. My most is only 800.

[Statalyzer]

RA2 is also more competitive. IMO, in YR you can go easily in the top 200 with 0 losses. In RA2, that's very very difficult, b/c there are far more better players there.

If the fact that most of the best players refused to be ranked competitively on the YR ladder doesn't show an imbalance, I don't know what does.

[truefeel]

There are 2 reasons:

1. The (bigger, b/c RA2 aint really balanced either) balance

2.Th amount of players: in RA2, there are more players. More players attract even more players.

[YuriAndroklov]

It seems like the Alien that is In CNC 3 would be some sort of like Yuri by its special technology and Inbalance.:p.

[Daishi]

Nope. The three sides are pretty well balanced, although GDI is definitely easier to play effectively. The Scrin (Aliens) are good though because they get to mix their huge airforce with their ground units to make it so that you have to prepare for everything every game.

[YuriAndroklov]

Nope. The three sides are pretty well balanced, although GDI is definitely easier to play effectively. The Scrin (Aliens) are good though because they get to mix their huge airforce with their ground units to make it so that you have to prepare for everything every game.

Lol, the aliens sure seems strong and interesting with weird attacks, like the one that speed green waves and destroy a house.:dismay:.

[Mercenary]

allies can be very dangerous with battle lab, prism tanks are magnetrons worst enemy and mirages will take out masterminds with ease.
Just watch out for super weapons, as most people know allied sw's are not that great.

[Daishi]

Chronosphere is easily the best secondary superweapon. This is because it can be used offensively as well in support of your own army.

[truefeel]

It isn't. Iron Curtain is b/c of the fast reload time and those 30 seconds rhinoes are invulnerable you can do heavy damage. If you can use it 2 times, you've won in most times.

with chronosphere, you have 2 options:

-Or you chrono units to his base. It can do damage, but if you pressure him by attacking and attacking, he will be forced to use his units he was about to use in battle and not to chrono.

-OR he can chrono a maximum of 9 units into a place were they get destroyed or get stuck. However, that's only at the very heighst 9 units (probably far less if you keep moving your tanks), while ICed units will kill more then 9 units if you use it right.

[yuri777]

I agree with dashi. With chronosphere you can also teleport enmy tanks into the water.

[apple23]

I dont know quite which is the best one... it is really a close match.
They both have thier strength and weaknesses. The Chrnonsphere can be used to teleport your own units into the middle of his base, which is in most cases undefended(or wherever his defenses are weak), or you can use it against the player and put them in a place where they are trapped or destroyed. This can only destroy up to 9 units and maybe a building or two.
The Iron curtain , while it can make your units invincible, that is it's only use. And with only 30 seconds, you will probably not dish out enough damage to make up for the 9 rhinoes you will almost certianly loose(8100$).

I would also like to inform you all (not that it matters a whole lot) that this thread was origionated several monts ago.

[Dracaveli]

I'm sure about which early stage Super weap is the best....I side with the Chronospehre, mainly because you can chrono your units on top of his units destroying them.

also the chronosphere is your best bet against an enemy who has 2-4 airforce commands..since the Iron curtain requires you to be in a certain range for it to be effective.....giving all those planes, by the time you reach it...you might have no rhinos or apocs left....since there is virtually no vaule (given that scenario) when using an Iron curtain on a bunch of flak tracks, he can just keep the planes on the ground...their primary weapon even x6 isn't really effective


The Iron curtain has one advantage over the Chronosphere, making any defensive building quite the "wonder weapon"


many say since yuri can grind ex-slaves turn'd brutes makes his mutator the best, but frankly we all have lost before with 10,000+ credits....

[truefeel]

Iron Curtain is best, just take my word for it. You can do more damage with 9 Iron Curtained vehicles then 9 chrono'd prism tanks or 9 "chrono-killed" units. On top of that, it takes 2 minutes less to load.

And if you make so much planes in such a short time, you'll get rushed b/c lack of money=lack of tanks. If you do it later on, the opponent can mass AA units, flak tracks are excellent at killing aircraft due splash damage. 4-5 flak tracks are enough to kill like 10 planes.

[Dracaveli]

you may be right, I tend to view things now from an AI perspective, since thats my opponent from here on out...but I agree and disagree with flaks killing Airplanes...they can kill them easily only in air....I still say the range requirement of the Iron curtain makes it second to the chronosphere...this may explain why factory RA2/Yuri has it at 2 mins behind charge time

[truefeel]

The range equipment is not a big deal if there's no lag. I tend to use iron curtain in the middle of a battle. Then the opponent their units cannot run away. And no army means no protection for buildings mean GG.
The 2 minutes is misjudgement in balance.

they can kill them easily only in air

On ground, I have other very cheap methods, like a sneaky terror drone.

And as far I know RA2 and YR, planes only do damage when they are in the air :p.

[Dracaveli]

The scenario was 2-4 aircraft command's....vs iron curtain

just bringing your units into activation range becomes a problem, trying to do AA flak curtain script would be pointless because the allied commander should keep his planes on ground and let the flak waste the curtain, they may kill a couple that depends on their initial veterancy.

Again given the scenario of Iron Curtain vs a air-holic.....which Westwood limited to four per structure :chin:

[truefeel]

It would already have to be an unlimited fast build blabla mod map, b/c your scenario ain't gonna work on westwood maps, even not maps like deadmans ridge.

[Avapodnaught]

I know u can get more than nine terror drones into an iron curtain, that be hilarious, afterwards u just tear whats left apart, lol, chronosphere only better if it is built first, and used before they can launch the iron curtian... of course a combo of the two is overwhelming... teleporting invulnerable drones, and base owning prisms...
Chronosphere can only transport enemy units away for good if there is water or cliffs (hopefully not where ur base is or headed) and u probably get less then nine units at a time with water, and if they move, less and less, iron curtain doesn't have that problem with tanks , they do their damage well...

[Dracaveli]

In a 4+ free for all game the chronosphere is top dog, since it can be used to severly cripple two enemies at once.....It would already have to be an unlimited fast build blabla mod map, b/c your scenario ain't gonna work on westwood maps, even not maps like deadmans ridge.

It would be one airforce command structure just enlarged and supporting 12 planes....you wouldnt have to worry about spending an extra 1000 on the airforce command itself...so you can get 6-7 planes fairly quickly....Korea of course would then be the one to worry about

[truefeel]

It's not the costs of the airforce, but the planes. on official maps, you'll get out of money and you will get rushed.
And what are you talking about ? a modded airforce command centre ? we are still in normal YR, where you to build more afcc's to get more planes. speaking of irrelevance...

[Dracaveli]

well the only differnce between my statement and official yuri/ra2 is $1000 every fouth plane...

if you have enough credits this wouldnt be a problem, and I'm pretty sure credits isnt an Issue, since you are to build 8+ rhino's or drones along with an Iron curtain along with a battle lab etc......the allied player could spend this amount of money on airplanes..


advance tech strats for the sovs are double edge since its not certain your enemy will seek that same route, lower tech units as westwood intended it are the counter balance to higher tech actions as "pre empt"....while the chronosphere itself can be a high tech offensive strat without the need of additional cost to make use of it.

[truefeel]

if you have enough credits this wouldnt be a problem, and I'm pretty sure credits isnt an Issue, since you are to build 8+ rhino's or drones along with an Iron curtain along with a battle lab etc......the allied player could spend this amount of money on airplanes..


Except that that all happens on the same time. building 12 planes costs time, much more time then my tanks (which all all that mattersin the end). And before you started with building them, I'll have already 10+ tanks. On top of that, soviet economy is better then allied economy. So soviet economy can hhandle that earlier.
And eh, you can't build a battle lab and iron curtain on the same time:nuts:.

advance tech strats for the sovs are double edge since its not certain your enemy will seek that same route, lower tech units as westwood intended it are the counter balance to higher tech actions as "pre empt"....while the chronosphere itself can be a high tech offensive strat without the need of additional cost to make use of it.

there will be no advanced tech strats. if he sees you have not enough tanks you'll get rushed, which happens exactly if you spend your money on planes. Rhinoes are already better then plastic tanks.

while the chronosphere itself can be a high tech offensive strat without the need of additional cost to make use of it.

So is the Iron Curtain, and I can tell u: it's more offensive and at the same time more defensive then the chronosphere. That is if you'll ever get to launch a chronosphere... .By the time you have completed the construction of the chronosphere, the iron curtain is probably already ready and 9 units are heading for you to your base ready to smack out alot. Units or buildings.