Balance mod

[Daishi]

My personal mod. It's centered on balance.

Magnetron unavailable until battle lab.
Boomer build time doubled. Now he's gonna need a decent naval BO (multiple shipyards) to dominate on naval.
Boomer missile damage halved. Boomer rush =/= end of the world :)
Robot Tank cost decreased to 400.
Guardian GI ROF decreased. GGIIFV ROF left alone.
Tesla Tank range increased.
Spies are now immune to mind control.
Demolition truck armor doubled.
Rhino Tank and Tesla Tank BTM reduced to 1.3
Dolphin and squid build time doubled to keep Allied from raping everyone late naval.


Currently, I’m trying to make it super balanced. I think I may have successfully balanced all the factions. I'm yet to go multiplayer though, I need to finalize a few changes. I think I may have gone too far by making the Apocalypse MC immune, but it seems like the only way to balance the Soviet late game against Yuri's.

[Bouncing Ball]

"Tesla Tank range increased."
not too much I hope..

"Spies are now immune to mind control."
So Yuri has no means detecting them anymore?


"Demolition truck armor doubled."
That's too much!

[Daishi]

"Tesla Tank range increased."
not too much I hope..
Hope not. I've gone through a lot of configurations for it, and I stopped when it equalled the rhino's range. It's still got weak armor and is expensive.
"Spies are now immune to mind control."
So Yuri has no means detecting them anymore?
Except for the Psychic Radar and his common sense, yeah.
"Demolition truck armor doubled."
That's too much!
It really isn't. Now it takes TWO Harriers, or twice as long with a single rhino tank to kill it.

[wthigon]

Except for the Psychic Radar and his common sense, yeah.



Skirmish A.I. doesn't use it correctly. Maybe you can make the Virus detect the spies??

[Fenring]

Brutes anyone?
Either way, a few changes like this aren't going to help in the way of balance. You need to add new units to really balance things out.

[Bouncing Ball]

Except for the Psychic Radar.

Now now, that's not where a slave-looking spy will be bothered.. You make stealing money a bit too easy!

[truefeel]

Brutes anyone?
Either way, a few changes like this aren't going to help in the way of balance. You need to add new units to really balance things out.


only with yuri's navy. The rest can be tweaked up

It's infact more easy to base yourself on a balance mod of RA2, when making a mod for YR. However, it will take long before YR will be balanced.

[Daishi]

Skirmish A.I. doesn't use it correctly. Maybe you can make the Virus detect the spies??

This mod was designed with online multiplayer in mind, not the AI. But you have a point.

Now now, that's not where a slave-looking spy will be bothered.. You make stealing money a bit too easy!

You may be right. But the Allies do have trouble regaining their economy when playing properly against Yuri, this is supposed to help even things out. The spy is very useful against the Soviets or Allies, why not give it a chance against Yuri?

I'll put it up here tomorrow afternoon so we can try it out. We'll see if Yuri is really that disadvantaged now.

[Statalyzer]

Apoc being mind-control immune is too much I think. Maybe make the Seige Chopper immune instead, even when on the ground? Also need to watch if Yuri is now too weak in the water and too easily outbuilt by dolphin/sub spamming.

Also, GGI BFs need to be toned down. Make the BF have to accelerate and not get such a big range boost.

Finally, Rhinos modifer being at 1.3 was definitely a good idea to make the early game more balanced, but that's not a reduction.

[truefeel]

I think it was better to remove the buildtimemodifiers and then just tweak down the rhino tank a little.

[Daishi]

Apoc being mind-control immune is too much I think. Maybe make the Seige Chopper immune instead, even when on the ground? Also need to watch if Yuri is now too weak in the water and too easily outbuilt by dolphin/sub spamming.
I just wondered which one of these units would make a better Yuri counter. You're probably right, I'll change it back.

Also, GGI BFs need to be toned down. That was the nature of my decision to tone down the GGI's ROF but not the GGIIFV (because its so important for the Allies)

wthigon pointed out to me that I modded the wrong rulesmd.ini :rolleyes: I'll patch my game and remake the mod. No change in release date.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edit:
v1 complete changelog :hyper:
ALLIED
GGI Missile Launcher ROF decreased
Grizzly Tank BTM decreased.
Robot Tank BTM removed
Spies cannot be mind controlled.


SOVIET
Siege Chopper immune to mind-control
Siege Chopper land armor increased
Tesla Tank weapon range and elite weapon range increased dramatically
Demo Truck armor doubled

YURI
Lasher Tank BTM decreased
Magnetron not available until Battlelab.

NAVY
Dolphin Build time doubled
Squid Build Time doubled
Boomer explosion damage halved.

Thanks for your feedback. Installation is simple, just put it in your RA2 folder and rename it rulesmd.ini. Remove it when you're sick of not being able to connect to anyone. ;)

[Daishi]

In case u missed it... (and u did)

BUMP

[wthigon]

psst.... Spy can still be mind-controlled... >_>

You forgot to add this to him... ImmuneToPsionics=yes

[Daishi]

Fixed ;)

[Daishi]

REPORT:
All right. The first thing that must be done is SOME change, either in deploy time, area, power, or damage, to the Psychic Dominator, without making it too weak. At first I wanted to remove the structural damage effect completely, but that proved easily to be too drastic a change, it doesn't exactly break turtlers. The mutator can stay.

I've got one more change in mind to strengthen the Soviet late game, I'm going to buff up the Apocalypse to have 1.5x the armor and be immune to mind control. Suddenly, they're not going to be useless anymore, and the Sovs are all going to have a decent chance against mirage spammers and good Yuri mixes, by mixing apocs with rhinos. (after all, the Apoc was supposed to be war in a can) I'm worried that this change may become too much, but it seems to be a good idea, it warrants some testing.

Finally, I will remove the Siege Chopper changes because they had no effect.

Iraq seems to be at a slight disadvantage against the other soviets, but its negligible. There's good reason to pick Libya or Russia now. What's really awesome is that we can expect to see decent mixes involving the apocalypse, especially against Yuri. He can no longer spam masterminds without a good supply of lashers and Brutes to back him up.

Will release the new version this afternoon in an edit.

[truefeel]

Do not exegerate with the magnetron. Yes, it's the main cause why yuri is overpowered, but look it also the other way: without it or without it until battle lab makes yuri UNDERpowered. IMO, you should decrease it's range on vehicles with a few cells and getting it back on radar level.

As for the other statements, it's kinda good, except the buildtimes of the basic tanks. I keep at my opinion that the buildtimemultipliers should be removed and then making the rhino a little bit weaker on some or other thing (like a higher ROF or something like that).

What you can do with the psychi dominator, is to delay the animations as good as possible, giving people the chance of firing up the force shield.

What I would do is making the Tesla Tank again a bit weaker. I would cut off 25% armour of the current demo truck and making the damage that it does more heavier. Don't think that more damage is always better though. If it gets killed near your forces/base, it's a bigger problem for you. Though it would make wonderfull battles.

what I would do with the apocalypse is to make it faster and more range+ fire on the move, maybe also some more armour.The idea is to have a better version of the rhino considering price/numbers. Only my ideas i give ;).

Daishi, wanna test the mod with me later on ?

[Daishi]

Yeah, they're gonna need the mag back... Good call, might warrant a BTM or price increase instead, though. Also, I'm thinking of bringing the slave refinery HP down a little (make them an easier target, but not too easy.)

The demo truck is fine as it is. The problem was (and still is) it's WAAY too easy to intercept and blow it up with a high chance of survival. Plus we don't need chrono/curtain trucks(now that you'll see more of them) to be any more hopelessly destructive. We just need to let them explode a tiny bit closer to the enemy, and there's the slight damage increase. And, now you need to hit them with 2 planes, which may be a bit difficult if your enemy makes a good defense with SWs on, meaning vs. Libya, there'll be brand new builds to employ as the Allies.

Why would you make the Tesla tank weaker? I don't see what the problem is.

Also, although i disagree on the tanks bit, I'm wondering if Yuri really needs the extra lashers for balance like the Allies did.

[truefeel]

It's generally for allieds vs. soviets. Here's how I think: I think on 3 main tech levels:

-war factory tech level: basic tanks fight

-radar tech level: basic tanks + more advanced units

-battle lab level: generally advanced and the most advanced units + basic tanks you kept from early game

This is very possible as it is already with the allieds and yuri. With the soviets, that isn't as much, but still alot.

Yuri does need lashers, btw. Why I'm saying that the buildtimes should be removed is b/c we need to even the sides at all 3 kinds of tech levels stated above. The best way IMO is to do it like I said. you could of course also do it different,but you should keep the 3 basic tanks balanced in any case.

You should nerve the tesla tank a bit down if you think, and that was what you stated, that Iraq is now a bit behind.

An other idea about the demo truck is that you could make it faster AND removing the announcement sound and then nerving the armour down and more damage. So it would then be like this: you would need 2 harriers or 1 eagle to get it's health into the red (and then you can kill it with one shot from any unit or so) . But the catch is that you can dodge their missiles, b/c it's faster. Of course if your opponent notices it, you can better guard it with your army and on the last moment retreat your army and go in with the demo truck to damage your opponent heavily. Of course tricky, depends on much TC is used on both sides.

[Daishi]

An other idea about the demo truck is that you could make it faster AND removing the announcement sound and then nerving the armour down and more damage. So it would then be like this: you would need 2 harriers or 1 eagle to get it's health into the red (and then you can kill it with one shot from any unit or so) . But the catch is that you can dodge their missiles, b/c it's faster. Of course if your opponent notices it, you can better guard it with your army and on the last moment retreat your army and go in with the demo truck to damage your opponent heavily. Of course tricky, depends on much TC is used on both sides.

Have to continue to test the demo truck before i make more changes to it. It seems to working fine if you don't go sending them alone, because it forces the enemy planes over your flak.[/edit]

Yuri does need lashers, btw. Why I'm saying that the buildtimes should be removed is b/c we need to even the sides at all 3 kinds of tech levels stated above. The best way IMO is to do it like I said. you could of course also do it different,but you should keep the 3 basic tanks balanced in any case.


Understand though, the only reason I kept the BTMs alive was to keep the current early-game strategies alive by keeping stuff, particularly the GGIIFV from being outphased by full tankspams. I don't want the early game to be quite that straightforward for everyone, especially when they always have the Soviet advantage for that. Now Grizzlies are worth building and rhinoes aren't outmatched in the field, that's enough.

[truefeel]

Well yeh, that's good then. Like I said, if you balance the 3 tanks on an other way, it's ok:) . Though my manner would had worked also;) .

And strategies don't change if you remove the btms, btw. In RA2, the basic tanks don't have any btms and it's more or less the same concerning building tanks until radar/battle lab :).

[Fenring]

If you don't mind my asking, what's "BTM" stand for?
While you're at it, make it so the Lasher Tank isn't a Grizzly Tank with a new image. Fix a few oversights here and there, and make sure you incorporate the YR UMP fixes/changes as well. Lots of good stuff in there.

[Daishi]

If you don't mind my asking, what's "BTM" stand for?
BuildTimeMultiplier=Allows you to change the time it takes to build.
While you're at it, make it so the Lasher Tank isn't a Grizzly Tank with a new image.
Why? This is a balance mod, nothing else.
Fix a few oversights here and there, and make sure you incorporate the YR UMP fixes/changes as well. Lots of good stuff in there.
You mean 1.002? K.

[truefeel]

Well, fenring has a point with the lasher tank. You don't have to change it into something completely new, only so that it is a bit different from the other tanks. The name is lasher light tank. IMO, you could do something with that name: make that it has less armour and firepower, but faster and cheaper then the grizly battle tank. That way, you keep more or less the unit itself and you make a distinct difference at the same time with the grizly.

[Daishi]

JYMrulesv3 changelog
------------------------------------
Slave Miner and Slave Refinery armor reduced to 1500. (to put Yuri on the defensive a little bit)
Lasher Tank Armor reduced by 50 (you asked for it)
Lasher tank Price reduced by 100 (same as above)
Magnetron price boosted to 1200 (to match the prism)
Grizzly Tank, Lasher Tank BTM decreased to x1.3 (to balance the early game and bring Yuri into the field quickly against the Soviets.)
Spies can no longer be mind-controlled (To help the Allied economy out early on vs. Yuri)
Brutes can now detect spies. (thought I was holdin' out on ya, huh?)
Apocalypse tank has 1.5x the armor and can no longer be mind-controlled (all cower in fear at the new Soviet late game mixes!!!)
Demolition Truck armor doubled (5 shots from a rhino to kill it!)
Dolphins and squids take twice as long to build, (to prevent spamming and to weaken the Allies a bit.)
Dolphin price boosted to 600 from 500 (to further weaken the Allied navy so that the Soviets stand a chance.)
Deployed GGIs fire only half as fast (This is just to weaken GGIBFs a tad. GGIIFVs still retain the same ROF.)
Tesla Tank bolt and elite bolt range increased (hasn't been tested much, but may end up being a good mirage counter)
Non-elite Boomer Missile damage halved (takes two shots to kill infantry, even) Now you need to mass Boomers to do any serious land damage. (bye bye boomer rush)
UMP 1.002 fixes implemented ( ;) )
V3 launch sped up ever-so-slightly (just for the hell of it)


---------------------------------

Yes, I know I haven't fixed the Psychic Dominator yet, I'll find out how then do it. Also I'm seriously considering removing the basic-tank BTMs altogether. If there are any technical issues with this mod, feel free to tell me. I'll be on YR for competitive testing someday after this Friday.

[SgtRicko]

Hate to say Daishi, but MC-immune Apocs are not only illogical, but kinda devastating vs, Yuri since he won't be able to stop 'em so easily anymore.

[truefeel]

Magnetron price boosted to 1200 (to match the prism)
Grizzly Tank, Lasher Tank BTM decreased to x1.3 (to balance the early game and bring Yuri into the field quickly against the Soviets.)
Apocalypse tank has 1.5x the armor and can no longer be mind-controlled Demolition Truck armor doubled (5 shots from a rhino to kill it!)


I picked out those 3 b/c I don't think that was a good idea or have doubts about it;

1.Magnetron are overpowered b/c what they: with only 2 or 3 they can do already alot. Increasing the price will not help much, decreasing the range they have against vehicles does.
2.Don't forget that you need to test this also vs. the soviets. It might be possible now to outtank a soviet player now pure on tanks. If that's the case, bring down the BTM of the rhino also. That brings me back to my idea of completely removing the BTMs: that's alot easier then playing around with the BTMs and you would only need to weaken slightly the rhino. But ok, difficult goes also well, I guess;) .
3.Making it mind control immune is IMO going a bit too far; how's yuri going to counter that ? sure magnetrons can lift them, but which unit is going to kill it then ? you need many lashers to kill it then,but yuri can't mass them, b/c he needs to build alot of types of units. Don't exegerate with the armour also; it's main problem was range, speed and not having the ability to fire on the move. I'd say that 1,1 times it's armour would had been enough.

[Daishi]

1.Magnetron are overpowered b/c what they: with only 2 or 3 they can do already alot. Increasing the price will not help much, decreasing the range they have against vehicles does.
Was afraid to change it because of the new apoc. Now that I'm removing the Apoc's mc-immunity, i think i can change it fine.
2.Don't forget that you need to test this also vs. the soviets. It might be possible now to outtank a soviet player now pure on tanks. If that's the case, bring down the BTM of the rhino also. That brings me back to my idea of completely removing the BTMs: that's alot easier then playing around with the BTMs and you would only need to weaken slightly the rhino. But ok, difficult goes also well, I guess;) .
Faced a few brutals yesterday with Russia, and it turns out that the Sovs is still slightly ahead of the Allies in the field. It might be a good idea to remove the Soviet BTM, though, the AI doesn't exactly make GGIIFV backup units.
3.Making it mind control immune is IMO going a bit too far; how's yuri going to counter that ? sure magnetrons can lift them, but which unit is going to kill it then ? you need many lashers to kill it then,but yuri can't mass them, b/c he needs to build alot of types of units. Don't exegerate with the armour also; it's main problem was range, speed and not having the ability to fire on the move. I'd say that 1,1 times it's armour would had been enough.
After some testing yesterday, I can only agree with you that mind-control immune apocs are ridiculous. Yuri's defenses, units, and everything else get ripped to pieces. If the AI massed brutes, it would be possible, but 3/4 of the Soviets now have zero problems wiping out large groups of infantry. Hopefully we can keep the armor increase to help out the Soviet late game against the Allies.

The slight increase in the TT's range has also become overpowered rather well, because they rape mirages, grizzlies, bases, infantry, everything, staying a good distance from Yuri forces as they zap them from a wierd range unshared by any other unit. I never realized the Tank Bolt did so much damage, I hope to find a happy medium at range=5, Elite Range=7. (originally range=4, ERange=6, currently range=6, ERange=8.)

Love the new Boomer though. :D

Will send up a new version by today.

[nuker7735]

Just a suggestion to help the demos get in a little easier, but not too much. Try putting Special_2 armor on the demos and see if it has the same effect it has on missiles. (keeps missiles from exploding eachother in a group when shot) If you actually try this, hit me back if it works.

[truefeel]

Faced a few brutals yesterday with Russia, and it turns out that the Sovs is still slightly ahead of the Allies in the field. It might be a good idea to remove the Soviet BTM, though, the AI doesn't exactly make GGIIFV backup units.

You can't test such things on AI; what you need to do is organise some matches with the mod and be observer. That's the best way to do.

After some testing yesterday, I can only agree with you that mind-control immune apocs are ridiculous. Yuri's defenses, units, and everything else get ripped to pieces. If the AI massed brutes, it would be possible, but 3/4 of the Soviets now have zero problems wiping out large groups of infantry. Hopefully we can keep the armor increase to help out the Soviet late game against the Allies.


Armour was never a real problem for the apoc; the range, speed and mobility was. That's why the apoc was easy replacable by the rhino. I agree, it needs to get better. But that's why I said to make it a bit faster, having it 1 cell more range and make it fire on the move. Then you have something that can replace the rhino in most of the times
Glad you have seen that it was redicolous though. Trust me, Balancing yuri is not easy in any way. So take your time on it and try things out ;) . Here's what you could In My Opinion: instead of making the soviets stronger, you could makle yuri less strong. One thing is with the magnetron, decreasing it's range on vehicles with 2-3 cells. Then you still could making the mastermind less strong. And last but not least: remove the fire while moving option on the gatt tank.

An other idea for Cuba: make it so that when one terrorist blows up, that the other ones don't get damaged. give them also a tiny bit more armour. That way, you could still kill them by anti-infantry, but then you need to look out for them.

[Daishi]

An other idea for Cuba: make it so that when one terrorist blows up, that the other ones don't get damaged. give them also a tiny bit more armour. That way, you could still kill them by anti-infantry, but then you need to look out for them.

How?

JYMrulesv4 changelog
------------------------------------
Slave Miner and Slave Refinery armor reduced to 1500.
Lasher Tank Armor reduced by 50
Lasher tank Price reduced by 100
Magnetron price boosted to 1200
Grizzly Tank, Lasher Tank BTM decreased to x1.3
Spies can no longer be mind-controlled
Brutes can now detect spies.
Apocalypse tank has 1.5x the armor
Demolition Truck armor doubled
Dolphins and squids take twice as long to build.
Dolphin price boosted to 600 from 500
Deployed GGIs fire only half as fast (GGIIFVs still retain the same ROF.)
Tesla Tank bolt and elite bolt range increased.
Non-elite Boomer Missile damage halved (takes two shots to kill infantry, even) Now you need to mass Boomers to do any serious land damage.
UMP 1.002 fixes implemented ( ;) )
V3 launch sped up ever-so-slightly

*NEW CHANGES*
Fire-while-moving option removed from Gattling Tank. (Make anti-infantry a little bit harder for Yuri mix)
Apoc MC-immunity removed. (To help Yuri out)
Tesla Tank range evened out. (It was OP, been decreased from 6/8 to 5/7)

[truefeel]

We've done some testing. lashers vs rhinoes is going to the right direction, although lashers still get pwned by rhinoes (and that will be fixed).

Also, daishi, we forgot about the BTM; we worked in terms of equality in money, but with the BTMs, it would be different in real games. We'll talk 'bout that tommorow.

[Statalyzer]

Brutes detecting spies? If there's anything a buffed-up mindless drone of strength shouldn't be able to do, it's seeing through stealth or deception.

And did you mean that spies are no longer automatically detected and mind controlled, or are they truly psy-immune even if the player sees the spy and orders a unit to MC it.

If Lashers only cost $600, then there should be only 2 Rhinos for every 3 Lashers, which ought to be fair assuming the BTMs are fair also.

Also, why the reducing of the GGI? First it's range, then it's ROF, are reduced, basically meaning there is no longer any reason for the Allied player to use GGIs as foot soldiers.

[Daishi]

Brutes detecting spies? If there's anything a buffed-up mindless drone of strength shouldn't be able to do, it's seeing through stealth or deception.

And did you mean that spies are no longer automatically detected and mind controlled, or are they truly psy-immune even if the player sees the spy and orders a unit to MC it.That even if they detect it... damn you're right. Maybe I should reconsider that whole deal, its not like its much of a balance helper.

If Lashers only cost $600, then there should be only 2 Rhinos for every 3 Lashers, which ought to be fair assuming the BTMs are fair also. Yeah, truefeel, do the math. :p
Also, why the reducing of the GGI? First it's range, then it's ROF, are reduced, basically meaning there is no longer any reason for the Allied player to use GGIs as foot soldiers.It was my way of nerfing the GGIBF. Besides, its not THAT serious a change for the Allied strategy.

[truefeel]

If Lashers only cost $600, then there should be only 2 Rhinos for every 3 Lashers, which ought to be fair assuming the BTMs are fair also.

We are working on it;) . I got already a test in mind for it.

EDIT: I did the test (it was easy to do, just be one game yuri, the other game soviet). And the results are not good. I made with each side for exactly 3 minutes tanks with 1 war factory. Within those 3 minutes, I could make 15 lasher tanks for yuri and 13 rhino tanks for the soviet. So the ratio in real games is not the more balanced 2/3, but 13/15 !
The best solution is to remove the BTMs of all those basic. Else you keep getting stuck with bad ratio

[Fenring]

How?
TypeImmune=yes.

Grizzly Tank, Lasher Tank BTM decreased to x1.3
You probably already discussed it but kick the stupid build modifiers. They don't need to be there.

Apocalypse tank has 1.5x the armor
Seems... overpowering.

Demolition Truck armor doubled
What about speed? What good is a heavily armored truck if it never reaches its destination? You ought to think about lowering the armor a bit, increasing speed and slapping on MC immunity. You know, make Libya an actual viable force for MP and not just a gag country. Same with Terrorists though Cuba is far more useful than Libya.

Deployed GGIs fire only half as fast (GGIIFVs still retain the same ROF.)
Find the BF modifiers. Bunk the range and ROF. This way, you don't see a 16-cell GGIBF or 28-cell Sniper. :|

Non-elite Boomer Missile damage halved (takes two shots to kill infantry, even) Now you need to mass Boomers to do any serious land damage.
A bit too counterproductive unless you've added a lot to Yuri's navy to put this in check. If you haven't, Boomers have effectively become useless.

Fire-while-moving option removed from Gattling Tank. (Make anti-infantry a little bit harder for Yuri mix)
More fun to slap it on the IFV/Track instead. ;p

[hogo98]

This sounds good finally a small mod i wish a lot of people would play it online though.

[truefeel]

More fun to slap it on the IFV/Track instead. ;p

That goes too far what the IFV concerns. Ever thought about it what would happen if you did made that IFVs can fire while moving and you put a sniper in it for instance ?

What about speed? What good is a heavily armored truck if it never reaches its destination? You ought to think about lowering the armor a bit, increasing speed and slapping on MC immunity. You know, make Libya an actual viable force for MP and not just a gag country. Same with Terrorists though Cuba is far more useful than Libya.


Yeh agreed, I already suggested making it do more damage and be faster instead. Yes, I also opt for a MC-immune demo truck.

You probably already discussed it but kick the stupid build modifiers. They don't need to be there.

Also agreed on that. Tank spawning in YR is easy. In RA2, it was actually less b/c that you had to think more about your economy. It also made grizlies and rhinoes more balanced (not totally, but still).

[Daishi]

We are working on it;) . I got already a test in mind for it.

EDIT: I did the test (it was easy to do, just be one game yuri, the other game soviet). And the results are not good. I made with each side for exactly 3 minutes tanks with 1 war factory. Within those 3 minutes, I could make 15 lasher tanks for yuri and 13 rhino tanks for the soviet. So the ratio in real games is not the more balanced 2/3, but 13/15 !
Wtf? the two units have the same BTM, 1.3, I just checked! :\

But if you people want, we'll try removing all the BTMs and seeing how it goes, if the game becomes too damn centered on main tanks, forget about it.

[truefeel]

BTM on one unit is different then on an other one. Sorry dude, I tested this properly. It's the best to remove all the buildtimes; that's the most fastest and most efective method.

And it will not be centered on the basic tanks, I can assure you. Allieds are better off with mirages+BFs then pure grizlies. yuri is better off with making other units aswell next to the lasher tank then purely lashers. Soviets will be better off with the apoc tank, if you beaf it up with a bit speed and a bit range and fire on move, then rhinoes.

That the soviets will not use purely rhinoes anymore, is a change btw. And a good change.

[NODorGDI5]

(Sorry to just jump into the conversation like this...)

Just a suggestion to help the demos get in a little easier, but not too much. Try putting Special_2 armor on the demos and see if it has the same effect it has on missiles. (keeps missiles from exploding eachother in a group when shot) If you actually try this, hit me back if it works.

Hey listen. You got me thinking about the explosions. I don't actually have YR installed, but I've played it a lot (for lack of a better term) and figured that if you where to do that (give them Special_2 armor), you would have to go through the entire Warheads section and, 1. change all (there's a few exceptions) the "verses=" lines so that the weapons would be equally effective against Special_2 armor as they are against light armor, and 2. make the "verses=" line on the demo truck's weapon do no damage to Special_2 armor at all. Ok, now due to the fact that I'm messing with this armor that is shared by the spawned rockets in the game, it may create some errors when you have a Chrono Legionnaire fire at a rocket when it's about to launch. There also may be some problems with the fact that in some cases, rockets will effectively, have the same armor as a light vehicle. But the percent difference is only about 10% (except for the case with Yuri's flying disk, because it will now do 25% more damage to the demo truck and 25% less to the V3 and Dred. Rockets as before.).

I downloaded the version of rulesmd.ini that Daishi posted, and made all of the above changes. So now, there will be no friendly (or in the case of Libian vs Libian) no damage to the demo trucks from there own death weapon... I'd also like to note that the reason I mentioned the light armor type, is because that is what the demo trucks had before. (And if you think about it, the rockets would have about the same armor.)

Daishi, if you want to use this glitchy change, you obviously can. I just had a moment of inspired inspiration (from nuker) so I decided to go for it... If there's any offence (sp?) taken, sorry...

Edit: Removing attachment to save space.

[truefeel]

Hmmm, anyone demo truck floating ?:chin:

[Fenring]

That goes too far what the IFV concerns. Ever thought about it what would happen if you did made that IFVs can fire while moving and you put a sniper in it for instance ?
I realize this but a Sniper IFV only has a few cells of extra range so even with fire on the move, it's not as effective as it seems. Not to mention, it really adds some use to IFVs outside of AA and some early game tactics. They're more viable late game now.

Also agreed on that. Tank spawning in YR is easy. In RA2, it was actually less b/c that you had to think more about your economy. It also made grizlies and rhinoes more balanced (not totally, but still).
Tank spamming was just as easy in RA2... only thing was that the Soviets had to wait a few extra seconds.

Wtf? the two units have the same BTM, 1.3, I just checked! :\

But if you people want, we'll try removing all the BTMs and seeing how it goes, if the game becomes too damn centered on main tanks, forget about it.
The game is based around main tanks no matter what. Build modifiers won't change that.

That the soviets will not use purely rhinoes anymore, is a change btw. And a good change.
Somehow I doubt this. Rhinos are still more cost effective in most situations... at least to me they are.

[truefeel]

I realize this but a Sniper IFV only has a few cells of extra range so even with fire on the move, it's not as effective as it seems. Not to mention, it really adds some use to IFVs outside of AA and some early game tactics. They're more viable late game now.


It's a distinct advantage over the other basic AA units; it goes too far. Btw, the flak track and IFV were already without the fire on the move. It is a balance patch, and IMO it's better to change 1 thing instead of 2.

Tank spamming was just as easy in RA2... only thing was that the Soviets had to wait a few extra seconds.

It is less. You need to have a better economy. RA2 is also more focussed on TC. In YR, it was easy for soviet vs. allieds or vs. soviet: just make loads of tanks and attack. In RA2, it was also like that vs. allieds BUT decent allied players would win if the soviet player solely concentrated on making tanks.

The game is based around main tanks no matter what. Build modifiers won't change that.

I dispute that. Maybe it's for soviet, but certainly not for allieds late game or yuri complete game. If the BTMs are removed and the basic tanks are balanced, soviets cannot win anymore on pure tanks without good TC. That means either having better TC or searching for different tactics with other units also.

Somehow I doubt this. Rhinos are still more cost effective in most situations... at least to me they are.

That is now in regular YR. If Daishi makes the apoc better concerning speed, range and fire on move, apocs can at the very least better then the rhinoes in soviet war. For the rest, it depends how the mod will evolute.

[Fenring]

It's a distinct advantage over the other basic AA units; it goes too far. Btw, the flak track and IFV were already without the fire on the move. It is a balance patch, and IMO it's better to change 1 thing instead of 2.
I've thrown it into the mix in RA2 and while it SEEMS overbearing, it really isn't. Then again, I added more counters in RA2 but either way, there's plenty to counter beefed up IFV attacks. Besides, fire on the move for the basic AA makes sense so they can dodge plane shots and fire back at the same time... also, Daishi, hint hint. ;p

It is less. You need to have a better economy. RA2 is also more focussed on TC. In YR, it was easy for soviet vs. allieds or vs. soviet: just make loads of tanks and attack. In RA2, it was also like that vs. allieds BUT decent allied players would win if the soviet player solely concentrated on making tanks.
You're probably right. I don't play RA2 online all THAT often and I do tend to have a bigger mix of units than most players. :irked: OMG PRISM SPAM LOL! :rolleyes:

I dispute that. Maybe it's for soviet, but certainly not for allieds late game or yuri complete game.
You'd be surprised how handy a basic tank will be in the late game. Maybe you're not but the point remains that basic tanks are useful during the entire game for one reason or another.

That is now in regular YR. If Daishi makes the apoc better concerning speed, range and fire on move, apocs can at the very least better then the rhinoes in soviet war. For the rest, it depends how the mod will evolute.
Even with some additions to Apocalypse Tanks, they're cost is much higher so it slows your tank production a fair amount unless you have tons of war factories and even then, Rhino spam is a better option. You know better than I do that timing is everything.

[truefeel]

I've thrown it into the mix in RA2 and while it SEEMS overbearing, it really isn't. Then again, I added more counters in RA2 but either way, there's plenty to counter beefed up IFV attacks. Besides, fire on the move for the basic AA makes sense so they can dodge plane shots and fire back at the same time... also, Daishi, hint hint. ;p


I still have big doubts about it, but I sure wanna try it:) . If it doesn't go well, we can change it back later.

You'd be surprised how handy a basic tank will be in the late game. Maybe you're not but the point remains that basic tanks are useful during the entire game for one reason or another.

Not as handy as for instance a BF and mirages or magnetrons/masterminds/flaoting disks. Agreed: a handfull basic tanks is always handy, but they lost there title of being most usefull at late game (except soviets now).

Even with some additions to Apocalypse Tanks, they're cost is much higher so it slows your tank production a fair amount unless you have tons of war factories and even then, Rhino spam is a better option. You know better than I do that timing is everything

Long time ago I tested things with apocs and rhinoes. In big numbers with ratio 18 apocs/35 rhinoes, apocs are already better then rhinoes, if you don't count the weakneses of the apocs: being outsplitted. So that means on open ground the apoc actually wins of the rhino, but on grounds with alot of objects the rhino wins b/c of better speed and fire on the move. Make those 2 things better on the apoc and apoc should kill rhinoes most of the time. This is totally nothing to do with timing. Timing is about making attacks on the right moment or making the right move with your units. If people would still stay make rhinoes, when the apoc is better most of the times, then that would be b/c of habit.

Of course, then there's still the other sides. Making apocs usefull will need alot testing. What I would like to see is that the BF got slower and then apoc might get use against that unit also. We'll see. All up to Daishi.

[Daishi]

All right, here's my to-do list.
-Inprove the Lasher armor.
-Remove Spy MC-immunity. (It's not helping balance in the least)
-Weaken Initiates in buildings
-Slow down the dominator animation.
-Fix the Spy Satelite bug by renewing the 1.001 code definition, and make sure bug isn't present with any other unit.
-Fix Gattler not tilting when hit by terror drone
-Remove Gattling Tank ability to fire the move or grant it to the Flak Track. (it would be a huge balance risk to put it on the IFV)
-Give apocs their original armor back and implement turret property and weapon range changes to beef up the Soviet late game.
-Restore the GGI and find another way to weaken the GGIBF.
-Test naval late game between 3 factions.

Please keep discussing, and balance it out all you wish, responsibility is hereby transferred to Dr. Feel until I get back. See you in two months. I have some really serious things to do. :wave:

[Fenring]

I still have big doubts about it, but I sure wanna try it:) . If it doesn't go well, we can change it back later.
Indeed. It's just a handy addition, especially if you lower the BF's power overall.

Not as handy as for instance a BF and mirages or magnetrons/masterminds/flaoting disks. Agreed: a handfull basic tanks is always handy, but they lost there title of being most usefull at late game (except soviets now).
No arguments there.

Of course, then there's still the other sides. Making apocs usefull will need alot testing. What I would like to see is that the BF got slower and then apoc might get use against that unit also. We'll see. All up to Daishi.
You already have GGI-BFs and Mirage Tanks. The Allies should have few, if any, concerns about Apocalypse Tanks. And Yuri still has the MasterMind for a good Apoc counter.

-Inprove the Lasher armor.
Then it's not a light tank again. The Lasher Tank will be fine if you leave its cost at $600 and dump the build modifier.

-Remove Spy MC-immunity. (It's not helping balance in the least)
You've given Yuri the BEST anti-spy in the game. Spies need to be MC immune to be somewhat useful against Yuri. Attack Dogs actually have to chase the spy down and can fail but a Psychic Tower/Clone/MM can just MC from a good distance away and it's done.

-Weaken Initiates in buildings
They're fine running around. DRASTICALLY lower their garrison power, though. It's at 63, while the Allies and Soviets are at 30.

-Slow down the dominator animation.
Find Rate in the art file and take it down a few pegs.

-Fix the Spy Satelite bug by renewing the 1.001 code definition, and make sure bug isn't present with any other unit.
What bug?

-Fix Gattler not tilting when hit by terror drone
IsTilter=yes

-Remove Gattling Tank ability to fire the move or grant it to the Flak Track. (it would be a huge balance risk to put it on the IFV)
Not as much as you'd think.

-Give apocs their original armor back and implement turret property and weapon range changes to beef up the Soviet late game.
What about the Siege Chopper?

-Restore the GGI and find another way to weaken the GGIBF.
You can't weaken the GGIBF without weaking the original unit or anything else that goes into the BF. I suggest finding all of the OepnTopped bonuses and setting them to 1.0 to eliminate ANY BF bonuses. It may seem detracting but the ability to fire out of the transport makes up for this.

[truefeel]

Then it's not a light tank again. The Lasher Tank will be fine if you leave its cost at $600 and dump the build modifier.

It's not. We tested it with ratio 2rhinoes/3lashers. Lashers always get pwned. Lashers also get a tiny bit armour more: 10 or 20.

You already have GGI-BFs and Mirage Tanks. The Allies should have few, if any, concerns about Apocalypse Tanks. And Yuri still has the MasterMind for a good Apoc counter.

Like I said, we'll see how it goes. There's a good possibility things will go different vs. yuri.Vs. Allieds, I'd like to see using apocs mixed with other units.

-Give apocs their original armor back and implement turret property and weapon range changes to beef up the Soviet late game.

Don't forget to add a bit speed. I know you think apocs are ment to be slow, but adding a bit more speed so that is a bit faster then the BF, will not hurt.

btw, which and where (weapon or vehicle ?) is the tag for making a unit firing while moving used ?

BIG EDIT:
Please keep discussing, and balance it out all you wish, responsibility is hereby transferred to Dr. Feel until I get back. See you in two months. I have some really serious things to do. :wave:

If you don't mind, I keep updating the patch in the meanwhile. If you do mind, just send me a PM

here's what I done so far, based on the latest patch available:

CHANGES

-Apoc speed changed to 5 (was 4)
-Apoc Rate Of Turn decreased to 4 (was 5)
-Apoc can now fire on move
-Apocs armour back decreased to 900 (still 100 more then in regular YR)
àThe new apoc is awesome and far better. Now it’s very usefull and better then rhino in most cases, it 's also now good vs. battle fortresses, as that ones speed is decreased.

-Grizzly tank BuildTimeModifier removed (was 1.3)
-Grizly tank armour slightly increased to 311 (was 300)

-Rhino tank BuildTimeModifier removed (was 1.3)

-Lasher tank BuildTimeModifier removed (was 1.3)
-Lasher tank Armour slightly increased again to 267 (was 250)

-Battle Fortress speed slightly decreased to 3 (was 4)
-Battle Fortress now accelerates.
-Battle Fortress armour slightly decreased to 550 (was 600)
à those changes made what the BF should be: a support unit only. It’s now too slow to do hit ‘n run anymore; it is still a good unit though. But now using only Battle Fortresses is suicide. It makes also deso bombing much much easier, b/c a flak track can easily outrun now the range of a BF with a seal inside.

-Flak Track can now fire while moving

-IFV can now fire while moving

KNOWN BUGS

-SWs cannot be disabled (I’ll see if I can fix that myself)
-Spysat has missing cameo and is invisible (I think that is b/c daishi implanted the UMP and forgot to include the artmd.ini file, will be solved)

I still need to figure some things out. One I tried desperately to find, but was not able to, was to reduce the damage done by the radation emitted by the desolator to light vehicles. I changed the percent at the RadEruptionWarhead, but that didn't worked apperently. Fenring, you're an old skookl moddah, tell me how to do this :).

[nuker7735]

Hey listen. You got me thinking about the explosions. I don't actually have YR installed, but I've played it a lot (for lack of a better term) and figured that if you where to do that (give them Special_2 armor), you would have to go through the entire Warheads section and, 1. change all (there's a few exceptions) the "verses=" lines so that the weapons would be equally effective against Special_2 armor as they are against light armor, and 2. make the "verses=" line on the demo truck's weapon do no damage to Special_2 armor at all. Ok, now due to the fact that I'm messing with this armor that is shared by the spawned rockets in the game, it may create some errors when you have a Chrono Legionnaire fire at a rocket when it's about to launch. There also may be some problems with the fact that in some cases, rockets will effectively, have the same armor as a light vehicle. But the percent difference is only about 10% (except for the case with Yuri's flying disk, because it will now do 25% more damage to the demo truck and 25% less to the V3 and Dred. Rockets as before.).

I remember a friend once telling me that the special_2 armor was hardcoded or something for the purpose it is used for. I tested it and it is not hardcoded and your right about all the weird changes to armor and verses... was a good idea tho. We could use the Special_1 armor and it will be ALOT less glichy... the only unit that uses the Special_1 armor is the terror drone.

Also, to balance it out just a little, i would suggest putting the BTM on the rhino up to 1.1 and leave the rest at 1.0

[truefeel]

I need some peeps to help me testing it, some one wanting to do ?

[Fenring]

It's not. We tested it with ratio 2rhinoes/3lashers. Lashers always get pwned. Lashers also get a tiny bit armour more: 10 or 20.
With a price reduction, you should be able to churn out more Lashers and have a slightly larger advantage. It should be 4 Lashers to 2 Rhinos in this case... at least, that's my theory. :p

-Grizly tank armour slightly increased to 311 (was 300)
Why such a funky number? Go with 325 or 330. Seems a little better and makes it a bit more than a Lasher but still not overpowering.

-Lasher tank Armour slightly increased again to 267 (was 250)
Same with the above. I'd go 265 or 270.

-SWs cannot be disabled (I’ll see if I can fix that myself)
UMP fix actually. You need to update the game mode files.
DisableableFromShell=no is set on all superweapons.

I still need to figure some things out. One I tried desperately to find, but was not able to, was to reduce the damage done by the radation emitted by the desolator to light vehicles. I changed the percent at the RadEruptionWarhead, but that didn't worked apperently. Fenring, you're an old skookl moddah, tell me how to do this :).
Radiation uses RadSite.

[truefeel]

With a price reduction, you should be able to churn out more Lashers and have a slightly larger advantage. It should be 4 Lashers to 2 Rhinos in this case... at least, that's my theory. :p

That's IMO going too far. Such was never in RA2 or YR. 2/3 is more acceptable. It would be weird that 4 tanks cannot beat 2 tanks:eek: .

Why such a funky number? Go with 325 or 330. Seems a little better and makes it a bit more than a Lasher but still not overpowering.


I calculated with an electronic calculator. I justed typed over what was on that.I like correct numbers if you know what I mean:p . Btw, it isn't on locked. I still need to test other things like fire power and such and it can happen that I will change it again.

UMP fix actually. You need to update the game mode files.
DisableableFromShell=no is set on all superweapons.


Yeh, I already thought it was that. Thx for clearing the doubts:) .

Radiation uses RadSite.

cool, I'll check on that. thanks.

[Statalyzer]

Slowing down the Dominator animation won't help I don't think. My YR isn't working so I can't test it out right now, but I'm pretty sure you cannot click any orders during the animation, which is what makes it imbalanced.

It was my way of nerfing the GGIBF. Besides, its not THAT serious a change for the Allied strategy.

You're right, it isn't, but there's no reason to make the GGI worthless as a ground unit. Every once in awhile, it was useful, and the Allies should still have that option if they want.

Make the BF have to accelerate! It was the same speed as the Apoc, but the Apoc fell 1 cell behind while getting to top speed while BFs just zoom off at top speed immediately.

[truefeel]

I'll quote myself

-Battle Fortress speed slightly decreased to 3 (was 4)
-Battle Fortress now accelerates.
-Battle Fortress armour slightly decreased to 550 (was 600)
à those changes made what the BF should be: a support unit only. It’s now too slow to do hit ‘n run anymore; it is still a good unit though. But now using only Battle Fortresses is suicide. It makes also deso bombing much much easier, b/c a flak track can easily outrun now the range of a BF with a seal inside.

This a part of my changes to the mod (as long as daishi agrees with it of course); check previous page for the other ones.

Slowing down the Dominator animation won't help I don't think. My YR isn't working so I can't test it out right now, but I'm pretty sure you cannot click any orders during the animation, which is what makes it imbalanced.

I've seen and tried it with a mod. It helps and it makes it possible to fire up your force shield. Maybe it is possible to delay the starting of the animation, so it takes as long as the weather storm. Is such possible, Fenring (yeh, I gonna need ya alot :p)?

[truefeel]

Soz for double post;

Fenring, I tested with the radsite; I reduced the damage done to light vehicles from 50% to 25%. Though when I did tested it ingame, there was no difference between before and after the change: the vehicle (a mirage) gets still as quick destroyed.

Don't forget: it's the radation emitted by the desolator.

[Cylon Crusader]

My personal mod. It's centered on balance.

Magnetron unavailable until battle lab.
Boomer build time doubled. Now he's gonna need a decent naval BO (multiple shipyards) to dominate on naval.
Boomer missile damage halved. Boomer rush =/= end of the world :)
Robot Tank cost decreased to 400.
Guardian GI ROF decreased. GGIIFV ROF left alone.
Tesla Tank range increased.
Spies are now immune to mind control.
Demolition truck armor doubled.
Rhino Tank and Tesla Tank BTM reduced to 1.3
Dolphin and squid build time doubled to keep Allied from raping everyone late naval.


Currently, I’m trying to make it super balanced. I think I may have successfully balanced all the factions. I'm yet to go multiplayer though, I need to finalize a few changes. I think I may have gone too far by making the Apocalypse MC immune, but it seems like the only way to balance the Soviet late game against Yuri's.




Tesla tank armour increased plz.

[truefeel]

Armour is good, nothing wrong with that. There will other things though changed at the tesla tank; expect a BIG update this week.

[Daishi]

Lot of arguments to cover! I'll respond to a few.

You're right, it isn't, but there's no reason to make the GGI worthless as a ground unit. Every once in awhile, it was useful, and the Allies should still have that option if they want.
How is it suddenly useless, now? It still rips light vehicles and passing tanks to shreds without a problem.

Tesla tank armour increased plz.
It's actually very good with the range increase.

You've given Yuri the BEST anti-spy in the game. Spies need to be MC immune to be somewhat useful against Yuri. Attack Dogs actually have to chase the spy down and can fail but a Psychic Tower/Clone/MM can just MC from a good distance away and it's done.
Turns out the Allies don't really NEED to use the spy against Yuri. Sure, it helps against the Sovs and Allies, but as Bouncing Ball said early on, if anything at all, you'll probably be going for their unguarded field refineries.

I'm content with most of truefeel's proposed changes, but I don't see why we can't keep the apocs 1200 armor. The Allies have Mirages/GGIBFs and Yuri has MCs to knock apocs out without a hitch. (have you seen how long a Soviet Battle Lab lasts in most games? not too long)

The only change you really needed to make for the BF was the maximum speed. Combined with the weakened GGI, it should be easy to catch with a few rhinos, mirages, or even apocs. And we all know Yuri won't have a problem.

We've got a lot to cover in testing. Once again, thanks for putting thought into the mod, mostly to Fenring and truefeel. :)

[truefeel]

I'm content with most of truefeel's proposed changes, but I don't see why we can't keep the apocs 1200 armor. The Allies have Mirages/GGIBFs and Yuri has MCs to knock apocs out without a hitch. (have you seen how long a Soviet Battle Lab lasts in most games? not too long)

That's not true. Hit 'n run with mirages were the dead of apocs; the apoc just couldn't keep up. And the mastermind will be countered on a different way. I have a large list here with new changes, which I will do today.

[Daishi]

Truefeel, Fenring, you'll be around Friday? We can test naval and see if mirages and apocs really are balanced.

[Statalyzer]

How is it suddenly useless, now? It still rips light vehicles and passing tanks to shreds without a problem.

It rips tanks to shreds with only HALF it's old rate of fire?

[Daishi]

yep. it can still beat an empty IFV and any main tank 1v1 iirc

[Statalyzer]

yep. it can still beat an empty IFV and any main tank 1v1 iirc

That's not enough to make using it as a ground force worthwhile.

[Daishi]

Bite your tongue. It only means you have to make twice as many.

It's still very destructive against all early game rushes for a $400 mobile turret. You want force, make GGIIFVs. They're called Guardians for a reason, you know.

[truefeel]

Truefeel, Fenring, you'll be around Friday? We can test naval and see if mirages and apocs really are balanced.


Something like apocs and mirages are NOT comparable. The mirage is a solely anti-tank, which should be the counter of the apoc. the counter to mirages should be desos/tesla tanks/terrorists/demo trucks. Apocs are the fire power when mirages are getting damage and their disguise falls.

I'm updating the patch, it will be alot different then last time so be aware of that;) .

EDIT: UPDATED LIST (changes are marked in bold):

CHANGES

-Apoc speed changed to 5 (was 4)
-Apoc Rate Of Turn decreased to 4 (was 5)
-Apoc can now fire on move
-Apocs armour back decreased to 900 (still 100 more then in regular YR)
àThe new apoc is awesome and far better. Now it’s very usefull and better then rhino.

-Grizzly tank BuildTimeModifier removed (was 1.3)
-Grizly tank armour slightly increased to 311 (was 300)

-Terrorists strength increased to 100 (was 75)
-Terrorists no longer kill each other
-Terrorists are mind control immune
-Terrorists cost now 300/terrorist (was 200)
à Terrorists are now much better. If you don’t watch out with those guys, you’ll find your army smoking

-Demolition truck speed changed to 6 (was 5)
-Armour decreased back to 220, was 300 previous (and is still 70 more then in regular YR)
-Rad level dramatically increased to 450 by example of piscinex (was 100)
-cellspread increased to 9 (was 8)
-Verses have changed so that the radation does do less damage
-demolition trucks are now psychic immune
à Demo trucks are very powerfull now. If you hit your opponent right, you hit him very, very hard, b/c the actual blow makes a “one shot kill” for most light vehicles close enough, and does big time damage to medium and heavy armour vehicles. The backdraw is that if it explodes near your units, you will have to carry the consequences…

-Desolator will now do far less damage with his secondary weapon, the radation.
-Desolator are now mind control immune
à this ends the overpowering of the desolators. However, yuri will have to be more cautious now.

-Tesla Tank ROF decreased to 60 (was 75)
-Now better to light, medium armoured vehicles and miners, but less good vs. heavier units
-Buildtimemultiplier removed
-fires on move now
à Tesla tank became a good counter for those sneaky mirages. It also has now the unique ability to get be an eco killer

-Rhino tank BuildTimeModifier removed (was 1.3)

-Lasher tank BuildTimeModifier removed (was 1.3)
-Lasher tank Armour slightly increased again to 267 (was 250)

-Battle Fortress speed slightly decreased to 3 (was 4)
-Battle Fortress now accelerates.
-Battle Fortress armour slightly decreased to 550 (was 600)
à those changes made what the BF should be: a support unit only. It’s now too slow to do hit ‘n run anymore; it is still a good unit though. But now using only Battle Fortresses is suicide. It makes also deso bombing much much easier, b/c a flak track can easily outrun now the range of a BF with a seal inside.

-Flak Track can now fire while moving

-IFV can now fire while moving


And still more to come ;).

[Daishi]

uh k... send it to me on msn

[truefeel]

recheck my previous post.

And what's your msn ?

[Daishi]

Something like apocs and mirages are NOT comparable. The mirage is a solely anti-tank, which should be the counter of the apoc. the counter to mirages should be desos/tesla tanks/terrorists/demo trucks. Apocs are the fire power when mirages are getting damage and their disguise falls.

I'm updating the patch, it will be alot different then last time so be aware of that;) .

EDIT: UPDATED LIST (changes are marked in bold):

CHANGES

-Apoc speed changed to 5 (was 4)
-Apoc Rate Of Turn decreased to 4 (was 5)
-Apoc can now fire on move
-Apocs armour back decreased to 900 (still 100 more then in regular YR)
àThe new apoc is awesome and far better. Now it’s very usefull and better then rhino.

-Grizzly tank BuildTimeModifier removed (was 1.3)
-Grizly tank armour slightly increased to 311 (was 300)

-Terrorists strength increased to 100 (was 75)
-Terrorists no longer kill each other
-Terrorists are mind control immune
-Terrorists cost now 300/terrorist (was 200)
à Terrorists are now much better. If you don’t watch out with those guys, you’ll find your army smoking

-Demolition truck speed changed to 6 (was 5)
-Armour decreased back to 220, was 300 previous (and is still 70 more then in regular YR)
-Rad level dramatically increased to 450 by example of piscinex (was 100)
-cellspread increased to 9 (was 8)
-Verses have changed so that the radation does do less damage
-demolition trucks are now psychic immune
à Demo trucks are very powerfull now. If you hit your opponent right, you hit him very, very hard, b/c the actual blow makes a “one shot kill” for most light vehicles close enough, and does big time damage to medium and heavy armour vehicles. The backdraw is that if it explodes near your units, you will have to carry the consequences…

-Desolator will now do far less damage with his secondary weapon, the radation.
-Desolator are now mind control immune
à this ends the overpowering of the desolators. However, yuri will have to be more cautious now.

-Tesla Tank ROF decreased to 60 (was 75)
-Now better to light, medium armoured vehicles and miners, but less good vs. heavier units
-Buildtimemultiplier removed
-fires on move now
à Tesla tank became a good counter for those sneaky mirages. It also has now the unique ability to get be an eco killer

-Rhino tank BuildTimeModifier removed (was 1.3)

-Lasher tank BuildTimeModifier removed (was 1.3)
-Lasher tank Armour slightly increased again to 267 (was 250)

-Battle Fortress speed slightly decreased to 3 (was 4)
-Battle Fortress now accelerates.
-Battle Fortress armour slightly decreased to 550 (was 600)
à those changes made what the BF should be: a support unit only. It’s now too slow to do hit ‘n run anymore; it is still a good unit though. But now using only Battle Fortresses is suicide. It makes also deso bombing much much easier, b/c a flak track can easily outrun now the range of a BF with a seal inside.

-Flak Track can now fire while moving

-IFV can now fire while moving


And still more to come ;).

I like new demo truck :) Lets see how many harriers it takes to down it now.

The Tesla tank was already on the verge of becoming OP, but sure, I'm all for the $1200 being worth it.

As we discussed, I really want to avoid accidentally ruining any fundamental strategies. That means the Battle Fortress will most likely need to be restored to its original state, having been weakened already by an earlier change. If anything, I can agree with the top speed change, but only if it's necessary.

Thanks a lot for fixing the terrorist. I would never have figured out how :)

IFV fire without moving? Fine, unless you can't avoid it applying to all its different turrets. I'm worried about the decent power of the GI/GGIIFV becoming even worse.

[truefeel]

It is something that fenring proposed, which I'd like to test. For the moment I only see one (big) problem: ithe IFV will get alot easier elite now and we all know how powerfull "Iggy" (nickname for elite ifv:D ) is.

But don't worry, the elite weapon will be nerved down;) .

As we discussed, I really want to avoid accidentally ruining any fundamental strategies. That means the Battle Fortress will most likely need to be restored to its original state, having been weakened already by an earlier change. If anything, I can agree with the top speed change, but only if it's necessary.

Like we agreed, we would test it and then take conclusions :p.

[SgtRicko]

I'm not so sure if making so many soviet units MC-immune is such a good idea. You might end up making Yuri a bit UP when dealing with the Commies, especially with the Libyan Demo Truck now being stronger all-around and immune to MC (that thing was scary enough if your opponent was random and ended up with those 'em and you didn't know for sure)!!!

And besides, it makes no sense cannon wise: the weak-minded were more likely to succumb to it rather than those with a strong will, like Tanya (but even then, she was still succeptible - the RA2 8th mission proved this.)

[truefeel]

I'm not so sure if making so many soviet units MC-immune is such a good idea

They are all country special, so that means you can only build one type of unit.

You might end up making Yuri a bit UP when dealing with the Commies, especially with the Libyan Demo Truck now being stronger all-around and immune to MC

1 tank dude. 1 tank is enough to kill it. Making the demo truck MC immune was to force yuri players to be more versatile with their units.

And besides, it makes no sense cannon wise: the weak-minded were more likely to succumb to it rather than those with a strong will, like Tanya (but even then, she was still succeptible - the RA2 8th mission proved this.)

It's not so much about logic, but about balance. And believe me: once you tested it, you will find that if you use your units right, you can still counter them. Now yuri players cannot rely anymore on the what were overpowered units. Now it also comes down on Tank Control and microing.

I'll give you the best counters vs. the country specials of soviets:
-desolators:
midgame you kill them with gattling tanks. yes, gattling tanks get damaged by the deploy radiation, but remember that I reduced the damage done by the radiation. So that means you will probably loose your gatt tank, but you certainly killed multiple desolators. More then fair if you ask me. Late game, you can use floating disks. floating disks can widstand some AA and will be able to kill the desos, even if those are backed up with AA.

-terrorists: gatt tanks for midgame by hit 'n run. If they are in a flak track, use a chaos drone to chaos the flak track or just use a magnetron + some gatt tanks.

-demo trucks: this depends on how much TC you and your opponent has. If your opponent has much TC and you not, you'll probably get the demo truck between your units and all get destroyed. But if it's the reversed, you can destroy in between your opponents units (if don't guard demo trucks, they are an easy prey). Best counter would waiting when he retreats his tnaks to bring the demo truck in, then you retreat your army also, except 2 lasher tanks to kill the demo truck. But demo trucks are now really a matter of TC.

-Tesla tanks: They are still MC-able. alternative again to use magnetrons, but watch out !! they kill light and medium armour like hell. And watch out for your miners: If they get attacked by tesla tanks and your army is too far away, you loose atleast 3-4 miners.

[Daishi]

It took a lot of thought to catch up, but I think I get your deso changes. One of the main goals of this patch was to make sure that the Soviets could use other units to replace the deso's role. Now that desobombing is slightly easier, it was necessary to weaken it a bit. Originally, the apoc was going to become the all-around mirage killer, but it looks like we've made all the Soviet special units capable of accomplishing the same thing. Terrorist maybe not directly, but the new offensive power of WALKING these little varmints into the enemy base may be good enough to delay the Allied lab as long as it needs to be.

Things to do:
-weaken initiates in structures
-restore the Deployed GI weapon code from RA2.
-Test Truefeel's rules.
-fix the art bug in Truefeel's mod without fiddling with artmd.ini
-Make sure you can still blow up enemy terrorists with your own terrorists.

I hope I'm the only person to think this thread title is getting less and less accurately named. :rofl:

[Statalyzer]

The thing about the mind-control immunity is that 1)it doesn't make sense in logical game terms. 2)Mind-control wasn't the reason Yuri was overpowered anyway. It would be like balancing desos by making the Tank Destroyer and Sniper radiation-immune.

Most of the other changes I like. Especially I think with this mod, it will be a lot tougher choice of which country you want to be, and you'll always feel like you're giving up a unit you want by playing some other country instead.

As we discussed, I really want to avoid accidentally ruining any fundamental strategies. That means the Battle Fortress will most likely need to be restored to its original state, having been weakened already by an earlier change. If anything, I can agree with the top speed change, but only if it's necessary.

The accleration change is as needed as the speed change. Right now the thing can reverse direction too fast because it stops and starts back up again at full speed almost instantly. Plus, you cannot balance YR without changing the fundamental strategy of spamming GGI-BFs!

[Daishi]

The thing about the mind-control immunity is that 1)it doesn't make sense in logical game terms. 2)Mind-control wasn't the reason Yuri was overpowered anyway. It would be like balancing desos by making the Tank Destroyer and Sniper radiation-immune.
It doesn't make sense period. For now, it's just an extra stride to make the demo truck useable against a team with a Yuri on it, but I'd like to try it before we throw it out.

Most of the other changes I like. Especially I think with this mod, it will be a lot tougher choice of which country you want to be, and you'll always feel like you're giving up a unit you want by playing some other country instead.
:color3:

The accleration change is as needed as the speed change. Right now the thing can reverse direction too fast because it stops and starts back up again at full speed almost instantly. Plus, you cannot balance YR without changing the fundamental strategy of spamming GGI-BFs!
We might keep the changes. I admit we won't know for sure until we load up Dr. Feel's version if we've collectively nerfed it too much or just enough. But even if we revert back to the original BF and settle on the GGI nerf, the expensive GGIBF will find itself just as annoying as before, but not nearly as menacing for certain :)

[Fenring]

The thing about the mind-control immunity is that 1)it doesn't make sense in logical game terms.
Yes it does. It's not easy to bend the will of a fanatic! :p
However, it's not about 'logic.' It's about usability of units. In the current state, Demo Trucks are ****ing worthless. Yuri has the best counter for everything so MC-immune units force Yuri players to work a little harder.

One thing for truefeel and JYM, nerf the Prism Tank's damage on vehicles. As it is, those damn things do more damage to your tanks than the Mirages. At least make it so a P/M combo doesn't 2 to 3 shot your tanks.

[truefeel]

The thing about the mind-control immunity is that 1)it doesn't make sense in logical game terms. 2)Mind-control wasn't the reason Yuri was overpowered anyway. It would be like balancing desos by making the Tank Destroyer and Sniper radiation-immune.

Mind Control was a PART of the overpowered yuri system. the yuri system is about magnetron/gatt tanks/lashers/masterminds mainly. Take one part out of it and you make the system alot more weaker. Logic is not something that can put on it's place here; many parts of the game are just not logical:| .

you got some problems to do it different:

-terrorists: if you mind control one terrorist, it will attack the others. while friendly terrorists cannot kill eachother anymore, enemy terrorists can. So one 1 MCed terrorist can kill the whole group. And if you ask me, that's not difficult to do.

-desos: masterminds are, next to the floating disk and chaos drone, the counter for the desos. It makes actually desos useless (radation does very little to masterminds). Now I know terror drones can be nasty, especially now that magnetrons have less range. Problem is that I had to nerve down the desos radiation (Too overpowered vs. light vehicles, especially mirages, and infantry). Now gatt tanks can get into the radiation and widstand that bit long enough to kill the terror drones before they get the mastermind.
Now, you got me thinking about this one. I can play around with the verses and make the gatt tank less good vs. terror drones. So I'd like to change it.

-Demo trucks: Almost any unit could counter it. And if you ask me, MCing is the worst: it gets send right back to you, forcing you to damage a unit or 2 for saving the rest.

So I'd say, if the deso gets indeed changed back and the rest stays, it's good to go. And then you even have your logical, fanatics.

[SgtRicko]

you got some problems to do it different:

-terrorists: if you mind control one terrorist, it will attack the others. while friendly terrorists cannot kill eachother anymore, enemy terrorists can. So one 1 MCed terrorist can kill the whole group. And if you ask me, that's not difficult to do.


-Demo trucks: Almost any unit could counter it. And if you ask me, MCing is the worst: it gets send right back to you, forcing you to damage a unit or 2 for saving the rest.

So I'd say, if the deso gets indeed changed back and the rest stays, it's good to go. And then you even have your logical, fanatics.


But that's what made it so fun: Turning a MC-ed suicide unit like the bomb truck against it's own user and seeing the hillarious looks on their faces as they try to stop it!:lol: :rofl: :lmao:

[Daishi]

One thing for truefeel and JYM, nerf the Prism Tank's damage on vehicles. As it is, those damn things do more damage to your tanks than the Mirages. At least make it so a P/M combo doesn't 2 to 3 shot your tanks.

Good suggestion. Although I think the Prism Tank is a vital asset against Yuri players: maybe we can give the Soviets a better counter?

The GGI will most likely be restored to its full ability in the next release. Perhaps we can code the BF with an ROF reduction. Or we could just toss it all aside and slap on all of truefeel's proposals :p

[Fenring]

Mirage Tanks are still the better option against a Yuri force. Lower range but the strong weapon will easily make up for the Prism Tank's shortcomings.

[Daishi]

Mirage Tanks are still the better option against a Yuri force. Lower range but the strong weapon will easily make up for the Prism Tank's shortcomings.

MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGNETRON

[truefeel]

Mirage Tanks are still the better option against a Yuri force. Lower range but the strong weapon will easily make up for the Prism Tank's shortcomings.

Massing mirages vs. yuri is wrong; magnetrons lift them up before they get into range. You use mirages for killing masterminds, b/c there prism tanks come too short vs. the heavy armour. But for the rest (except floating disks), you use MANY prism tanks. So a handfull mirages and then massed prism tanks. Now here is were you get right:

Good suggestion. Although I think the Prism Tank is a vital asset against Yuri players: maybe we can give the Soviets a better counter?


Remember that magnetrons have less range now, so prism tanks have now basicilly the upperhand, which results in that yuri is UNDERpowered vs. allieds late game. Now I wanted to do make the prism tanks less powerfull a long time ago, but I wanted to do other changes first.



But that's what made it so fun: Turning a MC-ed suicide unit like the bomb truck against it's own user and seeing the hillarious looks on their faces as they try to stop it!:lol: :rofl: :lmao:

And what if you are that player who tries to stop the unit that has turned against you ?

Now, I got plans:

First of all, I also want to start to focus on anti-cheats. Yuri's Revenge is a place were cheaters can cheat easily. Yes, they can get caught, although that is a bit more difficult then in RA2 (due lack of XGS in YR). Anti-cheats will consist of:
-disabling units like the Rambo, resetting the cowshot damage to 1 (instead of 300)
-disabling maphacking
-Inserting the Capture Pack of mooman65 for the basic tanks. The Capture Pack makes that you can build tanks of an other side (if you have their war factory), but then in you side colour. So for example if you are soviets and you capture an allied war factory, you can build grizzlies in your colour (so bronze alike). The reason why I apply this is for example a cheater is allieds and he uses an all-build trainer, and he builds a rhino, he will build a soviet coloured rhino, while that would be impossible, b/c he is allieds and he supposed to be building allied coloured rhinoes if he had a soviet war factory. So you can inmediately see he is cheating.

I will also try to balance maps. A great thing is that Piscinex has already did this for all the RA2 maps, which are also in YR. I could ask him for permittion to insert those inside the patch. The rest of the YR maps would then be for me.

Though all those things require more files. So I'll try to find some one who can make a simple (un)installer to makes things easier.

[Fenring]

If you want Capture Pack stuff, you have to add a mix file, art, all kinds of extras. More than necessary for a simple patch-y thing like this.

CowShot damage to 1 is a good change. Also, set the Soylent on the Pres to something like 10 and set the IFVMode to 0.

You can't disable map hacking. That's not possible.

Also, if you balance the maps out, can you send them to me as well? I could use those as well.

[truefeel]

If you want Capture Pack stuff, you have to add a mix file, art, all kinds of extras. More than necessary for a simple patch-y thing like this.


I know. artmd, rulesmd,... . But I have experience with all this;) . I'm more then just a decent online player;) .

Also, if you balance the maps out, can you send them to me as well? I could use those as well.

Of course. Though most maps are from RA2.

You can't disable map hacking. That's not possible.


I'll try whatever I can, making it more difficult to do can also be great.

CowShot damage to 1 is a good change. Also, set the Soylent on the Pres to something like 10 and set the IFVMode to 0.

I'd like to keep the IFVmode, just to have a laugher when a noob builds presidents, puts them in an IFV and then attacks, only to find out it doesn't do any damage:p.

[Fenring]

I know. artmd, rulesmd,... . But I have experience with all this;) . I'm more then just a decent online player;) .
Did say any different? :p My concern is that you're going to turn this into more than just a simple patch.

Of course. Though most maps are from RA2.
An RA2 maps is fine too! :p If you happen to get some YR maps though, send em on over. :D

I'll try whatever I can, making it more difficult to do can also be great.
You can't. That's the thing.

I'd like to keep the IFVmode, just to have a laugher when a noob builds presidents, puts them in an IFV and then attacks, only to find out it doesn't do any damage:p.
Meh. I guess I'm not into the n00b-pissed off sort of humor. :p
Whatever you decide to do, at least change the soylent.

[Daishi]

All righty, testing revealed that apocs > mirage spamming unless in huge numbers. BF + Mirage mixes are going to be awesome against that strategy though, looks like the sov late game is right up there, especially with the buffing up of Cuba and Libya. :)

I really do think the Allieds may all-aroud need some buffing up. The GGI is back to its original configuration and IFVs can fire on the move, but i'm not 100% sure the late-game apoc spam is very balanced against their best strategies.

The Boomer needs to be supplanted by another unit early game naval, but I haven't given up hope that the Boomer can be balanced perfectly by itself.

(truefeel, keep in mind i build zero anti-air when i got rushed. ;))

[truefeel]

If you builded 2 flak cannons, you wouldn't had killed the boomer and you would had spended the same money as me. If you had builded AA and naval, you had spended more then me.

Did say any different? :p My concern is that you're going to turn this into more than just a simple patch.


I see, you are afraid I'll add complete new units, which were not really necessary ? Don't be bothered about that. The only real new thing will be new maps. I think we should have more of those strategic, less turtle-like maps

[Daishi]

If you builded 2 flak cannons, you wouldn't had killed the boomer and you would had spended the same money as me. If you had builded AA and naval, you had spended more then me.
Maybe you're right. I still think I had a chance, but you did have a bajillion units when i had virtually nothing. (remember I'm not much of a player :rolleyes:

Hopefully we can make Yuri a little less devastating on naval maps. Even if not much, it's a good thing. We still have to test the late game, and the Allied game.There's plenty we could try, from extending the stealth-detect range of the Sub, Boomer, or destroyer to making the Boomer slower in moving across the map.

In other news: because the new apoc is too spammable and cannot be beaten without a huge mass of mirages (which the Soviets are now all able to counter) its armor will be restored to the original 800 in the next release. The other apoc changes will stay.

[truefeel]

Ok, agreed:) .

[hogo98]

This has shaped up extremely well nice work.

[nuker7735]

Suggestions for:

Yuri:

Naval:
1. Give Yuri an AA naval unit. Boomers are submerged, but if they're detected or start firing a cruise missile, it's not that hard to kill them with air. This would also be necesary for defending hover transports.

2. Decrease Boomer armor a bit. Both soviets and allies have to mass sub types to kill a single boomer. I think its 5 vs 1 for sovs and like 7 vs 1 for allies.

Ground:

1. Increase Magnetron armor a little bit. Since they have to get in a little closer now, they will have to be able to withstand enemy fire.

2. Do something to beef up the brute. Give it a little better health, make it faster, something so that the brute isin't totally useless.
*EDIT* and stat, just so you know, this mod isint logic based, so brutes detecting spies isin't that bad of an idea, since the brute is, if you think about it, the yuri version of a dog. They are also genetically mutated and thier brains can be altered to give them the ability to see through spies. Again, this is balance based, not logic based.

Yuri air is fine.

Allies:

Allied naval is fine.

Ground:

1. Decrease the verses of the prism tank so that it dosen't overpower buildings too much. It has a huge range, longer than prism tower or telsa coil, and yet it can destroy a battle lab in 3 hits. Thats more powerful than the apoc, which is way too powerful for such a long ranged weapon.

2. if you want to nerf the GGIBF a little, make a weapon the same as the rocketlauncher, but less powerful. Then all you need to do is go to the GGI and edit the OpenToppedWeapon= flag and there you go.

Allied Air is fine.

Soviets:

Soviet naval is fine.

Ground:

1. Make it so the libyan demo trucks don't kill eachother. Same reason you did this for the terrorist.

2. I think you have made the deso a little too weak. Having rad site be that weak makes the deso practically useless... give it a little mroe power or just restore the regular settings.

Air:

Kirovs definately need some attention. Since it is rather difficult and annoying to guard your kirovs with AA defence, and then guard those AA defence units with other AG units, just give them a small AA gun so allies cant take kirovs down so easily with rocketeers.
Also increase thier speed a little. Since its a 1-cell range unit, it needs to actually be able to get to it's target. It is also very hard to get away if a unit is firing at it, not to mention the plain fact that it is annoying to have to sit there waiting, and waiting, and waiting, and waiting for it to go from your base to the enemy's.
Since the soviets have no air otherwise, thier one air unit acutally has to be usefull.

So, with theese changes in mind...
Post your latest code when you can so we can all test it. I'd love to see how you are comming along.

[Daishi]

Thread renamed!


1. Give Yuri an AA naval unit. Boomers are submerged, but if they're detected or start firing a cruise missile, it's not that hard to kill them with air. This would also be necesary for defending hover transports.mass disks own all air units. Yuri quite possibly might need another naval unit, though, something to take the Boomer's place in the early game.

2. Decrease Boomer armor a bit. Both soviets and allies have to mass sub types to kill a single boomer. I think its 5 vs 1 for sovs and like 7 vs 1 for allies.
assuming the subtype are the Dolphin and the Typhoon Sub, yes, they are ineffective against other naval unless you mass them, which is a lot easier for the Allies and Sovs than for Yuri.

Naval definitely needs a lot of testing, we'll get back to this.

1. Increase Magnetron armor a little bit. Since they have to get in a little closer now, they will have to be able to withstand enemy fire.
Sounds like a plan. But perhaps their shorter range won't weaken them too much.

2. Do something to beef up the brute. Give it a little better health, make it faster, something so that the brute isin't totally useless.
*EDIT* and stat, just so you know, this mod isint logic based, so brutes detecting spies isin't that bad of an idea, since the brute is, if you think about it, the yuri version of a dog. They are also genetically mutated and thier brains can be altered to give them the ability to see through spies. Again, this is balance based, not logic based.
It isn't useless. :p Scouting, countering tank rushes, Yuri versus Yuri on big maps... Oh, and you can mix them with disks and lashers for a load of fun.

1. Decrease the verses of the prism tank so that it dosen't overpower buildings too much. It has a huge range, longer than prism tower or telsa coil, and yet it can destroy a battle lab in 3 hits. Thats more powerful than the apoc, which is way too powerful for such a long ranged weapon.
The Prism tank is a pushover unless they're getting massed against the new Yuri. ^^

2. if you want to nerf the GGIBF a little, make a weapon the same as the rocketlauncher, but less powerful. Then all you need to do is go to the GGI and edit the OpenToppedWeapon= flag and there you go.
I think we're good. :)

1. Make it so the libyan demo trucks don't kill eachother. Same reason you did this for the terrorist.
You just pointed out something interesting. The new terrorist may be very hard to stop in swarms for its price, perhaps it needs a speed or blast radius decrease. As for Libya, I'm sorry to say that the demo truck could not be more awesome right now. :hyper:

2. I think you have made the deso a little too weak. Having rad site be that weak makes the deso practically useless... give it a little mroe power or just restore the regular settings.
I'm afraid of that too. I need to test Iraq with truefeel sometime.
Kirovs definately need some attention. Since it is rather difficult and annoying to guard your kirovs with AA defence, and then guard those AA defence units with other AG units, just give them a small AA gun so allies cant take kirovs down so easily with rocketeers.
Also increase thier speed a little. Since its a 1-cell range unit, it needs to actually be able to get to it's target. It is also very hard to get away if a unit is firing at it, not to mention the plain fact that it is annoying to have to sit there waiting, and waiting, and waiting, and waiting for it to go from your base to the enemy's.
Since the soviets have no air otherwise, thier one air unit acutally has to be usefull.

I agree that the Kirov may need some kind of boost, but it isn't necessary, and the Kirov wouldn't be a balance aid in the least. And it's already great for holding chokepoints against the Allies and Yuri in maps like Dustbowl.
Oh, and you forgot the Siege Chopper. It's an airforce unit. xD
Post your latest code when you can so we can all test it. I'd love to see how you are comming along.
k. Thanks for your input and enthusiasm.

[truefeel]

1. Make it so the libyan demo trucks don't kill eachother. Same reason you did this for the terrorist.

We already changed it, different. They are now MC immune and do way more damage now+ they are faster. That means a good placed demo truck can kill light units instantly. Further more lifted up demo trucks are very dangerous for yuri, b/c if he kills it in the air, his units on the ground get damaged and probably killed. Now, demo trucks can still be countered by 1 or 2 tanks; the succes of using (or of countering it) a demo truck depends on how much Tank Control both player have. If we made it that they wouldn't kill eachother, the lybian player can just spam mindless demo trucks, and that is overpowered, b/c then the opponent needs to have much TC to counter it and the lybian player practically not.

2. I think you have made the deso a little too weak. Having rad site be that weak makes the deso practically useless... give it a little mroe power or just restore the regular settings.


It's not weak. It's a bit weaker then in normal YR; in normal YR when your mirages were in radiation, they would die almost instantly. NOW you have a chance to get them out of the radiation, most of them in orange or even red health. If I'd restore it back, you will get the same overpowering as it was before. Especially now when the Battle Fortress is slower and the seal is about to get nerved down.
However, I will test it with Daishi to be 100% sure.

2. Do something to beef up the brute. Give it a little better health, make it faster, something so that the brute isin't totally useless.

That's already done and we even didn't had to change the brute. The basic tanks are now evenly matched and yuri will now also has to use fodder. Besides, brutes are the best early game scouting units.

1. Give Yuri an AA naval unit. Boomers are submerged, but if they're detected or start firing a cruise missile, it's not that hard to kill them with air. This would also be necesary for defending hover transports.


Yeh, although yuri has the floating disk, I also obt for a AA naval unit for yuri. Though you are not so right about killing boomers with air units. you would need alot of them and the boomer can submerge any time.

2. Decrease Boomer armor a bit. Both soviets and allies have to mass sub types to kill a single boomer. I think its 5 vs 1 for sovs and like 7 vs 1 for allies.

It's not. it's both 2 vs 1 to kill a boomer. Though you would indeed still need such numbers, and that b/c for detecting the boomer and making sure it can't destroy any of your buildings. Armour is not the real problem. The problem is that you can make it that fast (2-3 minutes and you have a boomer knocking at your basedoor). Now you would say to move it to battle lab ? then yuri is on naval UNDERpowered. The solution is to move it to battle lab anyway AND adding a new yuri naval unit, comparable to the level of the destroyer/typhoon sub.

[Statalyzer]

-desos: masterminds are, next to the floating disk and chaos drone, the counter for the desos. It makes actually desos useless (radation does very little to masterminds).

Then why not make Masterminds more vulnerable to radiation?

[nuker7735]

For rad, make it so it does equal damage to all units. It dosen't help balance in the least that heavy armored units are almost rad immune.

I agree with what has been said about yuri naval. Htis will need to undergo alot of testing but i'm sure we can come up with a conclusion.

Good point about the demp trux truefeel, keep them as they are.

I still think we should reduce the damage the prism tank dose to buildings to at least 150%. I know thier specialty is buildings, but doing double damage seems like a little too much.

I still think we should add an AA gun to the kirov. I know they are good for holding ckokepoints, but not much more. Due to it's slow movement, it can't really effectively attack anything where it has to move to attack it. You did bring up a good point though, diashi. Soviets have the seige chopper to defend them from air attack, so the only problem in my opinion is it's abysmal mobility.

Anyway, post your rules fileup here so i can test what you've done so far.

[truefeel]

Then why not make Masterminds more vulnerable to radiation?

Would not be logical; a heavy armoured vehicle dieing from radiation. Besides, me and daishi are going to test it properly. there will be changes made, but I don't know how yet.
Though not logical, I'm consedering it.

I still think we should add an AA gun to the kirov. I know they are good for holding ckokepoints, but not much more. Due to it's slow movement, it can't really effectively attack anything where it has to move to attack it. You did bring up a good point though, diashi. Soviets have the seige chopper to defend them from air attack, so the only problem in my opinion is it's abysmal mobility.


That's changing something completely unneeded. Making kirovs a bit faster would be enough already. Kirovs are good at naval maps and the opponent will have to spend the same or even more on AA (depends if it is mobile or not). On small maps, kirov are very very usefull already.

I still think we should reduce the damage the prism tank dose to buildings to at least 150%. I know thier specialty is buildings, but doing double damage seems like a little too much.


then how did it get that close to your buildings ? IMO, if you let it that close to your building, you deserve to loose it. Though, I'm intending to decrease the damage and splash damage done to light vehicles.

For rad, make it so it does equal damage to all units. It dosen't help balance in the least that heavy armored units are almost rad immune.


Heavy armoured units have different weaknesses then light armoured vehicles; that's the way it should be. Apocs and masterminds, for instance, are weak vs. mirages. BFs are weak to faster vehicles, like the rhino, lasher and grizzly and so on.

Anyway, post your rules fileup here so i can test what you've done so far.

You got msn ? It's still in beta and I don't think releasing over and over again an update for the public would be a good solution.

[apple23]

Post your code anyways, it's been awhile since you last posted your code.

EDIT oh and just so you know, i am nuker7735's long lost account.. so i'll be using this one from now on.

[Daishi]

Post your code anyways, it's been awhile since you last posted your code.
You'll get it when you get it. Patience. :lol:

[truefeel]

Post your code anyways, it's been awhile since you last posted your code.


Well, we aren't finished with this round of changes; we are going to add some naval units for yuri and maybe after some small changes. If you could wait a bit longer, we have something that can be tested properly.

[apple23]

ok i can wait
Don't worry if the next time you see me, I've chewed off all my limbs:p.

[truefeel]

Allright, I'll post a new rulesmd file then. There is not much I can do now anyway; Daishi is only available in the weekends and I haven't found anybody else who wants to test it.

We haven't done much since the last changes I posted; Biggest thing we did was changing all the flak weapons so we had that more balanced.

I'm also considering removing the fire on the move ability for IFVs and flak tracks. Flak tracks would own rocketeers very very easily and GGI IFVs would be too strong (easy hit 'n run and long range+ a good amount of damage). gatt tanks will keep the ability, b/c they have more uses. Though they will be nerved.

[Daishi]

Thanks for stopping the oober IFV, told you didn't I? :)

gatt tanks will keep the ability, b/c they have more uses. Though they will be nerved.
Just so Rocketeers work against Yuri? Gatts are balanced, we just have to get rid of that bug with that they outrange garrisons.

[truefeel]

Just so Rocketeers work against Yuri? Gatts are balanced, we just have to get rid of that bug with that they outrange garrisons.

They are too good vs . all airborne units, not just rocketeers. I'm not going to nerve gatt tanks that down vs. airborne units, just to the level of IFVs/flak tracks. So you will still loose your rocketeers when you don't retreat inmediately (or any other airborne unit, of ocurse).

[Daishi]

Alright, but we must be cautious not to make the drone too good against Yuri.

[truefeel]

Alright, but we must be cautious not to make the drone too good against Yuri.

Drones will be able to take 4 hits from a gatt tank, instead of 2 (atleast that is what I'm going to plan). That might sound overpowered, but it really isn't. the gatt tank shoots his shots kinda fast (2-3 shots a second).

[Daishi]

good idea. If you nerf the stationary Gattling Cannon's power, at least make it better than the Gattler.

[truefeel]

Of course I will.

[truefeel]

Ok, ladies. I need some testers, and this time not directly for the patch. As you might know, unofficial maps will get added to it. Most will already released maps from mapmakers (including me). Though I also take the oppertunity to make a few new maps. I got one nearly finished I'd like to get some peeps testing it, if possible along with the patch.

So who's in for this ?

[Statalyzer]

If you want me to help test some of the maps with vanilla RA2/YR, I can do that.

[truefeel]

alright ! can you get on msn ? then I'll gibve you da map

[apple23]

post it here i wanna test it

[truefeel]

I'm carefull with posting maps on forums. Last time I did that some one edited my map and I don't want that to happen. Do you have AIM or msn ? I could send it you via that.

[apple23]

ya i know what u mean =S i got a yahoo but not an AIM or MSN...

[truefeel]

You got an email adress ? I could send it to you via that.

[truefeel]

I'm gonna restart this, b/c there seems a bit of interest in this by EA community manager APOC;

http://forums.ea.com/mboards/thread.jspa?threadID=335227&tstart=0

Now luckily I reread the whole topic and found the rulesmd file which daishi lost :p.

So daishi, let's do this :p.

[wthigon]

I just read the whole topic and I like all the changes so far. The only thing I don't understand is something about the Dominator....What are you talking about there?

[truefeel]

The problem is that with the dominator you never can fire up the force shield in time. ecreasing the animation speed might help here.

[wthigon]

The problem is that with the dominator you never can fire up the force shield in time. ecreasing the animation speed might help here.



It's not actually the animation its this: Just increase it. to like 35 or tweak it to your liking.

DominatorFireAtPercentage=20; ;50; gs at this percent into the FirstAnim, the actual effect will fire

[truefeel]

Well, basicilly, we just want to delay it. Though I've read somewhere delaying it too much will let the game crash.

I might need your help adding 1 or 2 naval units for yuri.

[wthigon]

Alright just let me know.

What kind of units were you thinking of?

[truefeel]

basicilly just an AA boat and another boat, in the same class as the sub/destroyer. dunno how and what, but it's essential to give the yuri side those 2 units to get the boomer to battle lab level.

I don't like adding units to a balance patch, but I don't see an other option.

[wthigon]

A gattling type boat and another boat? ...what purpose is for the other boat?

[Daishi]

Whoa, this is cool. Dr. Feel, first of all, we certainly can't consider adding another unit if we want this to get official review. We may just have to do something else.

Sup wthigon/

[truefeel]

A gattling type boat and another boat? ...what purpose is for the other boat?

Like I said, a boat in the same class of the sub/destroyer so that yuri can compete with early soviet/allied naval without the boomer.

Whoa, this is cool. Dr. Feel, first of all, we certainly can't consider adding another unit if we want this to get official review. We may just have to do something else.

I don't think there is an other solution; read this: http://strike-team.net/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=119076&view=findpost&p=1013368

It was writen by babak, multiple rank 1 winner on YR ladder. The problem is that allieds/soviets have tier 1,2 and 3 naval units. yuri has only a tier 2 naval unit (and even that unit is on the wrong place; it should be a tier 3 units seeing it's capabilities). It's kinda impossible to make only one unit balanced with tier 1, tier 2 and tier 3 units at the same time. It's like making a GI balanced with a dog, a rocketeer and a tanya.
Adding units aint exactly the first thing you should do, but this case it needs to be.

[Daishi]

I know that, I just doubt EA would dare to officially recognize a patch that added new units.

You have my MSN! ;)

[truefeel]

we'll see how it goes.

And get online as fast as u can; my username is turbonl64

[Daishi]

I have two final proposals before I throw my support behind the addition of a new naval unit.

1) -Boomer is $1000 and available pre-radar.
-Armor is halved.
-Only 1 missile is fired at a time.
-Vulnerable to squids.
-Torpedos do half damage.
-Sped up to match the typhoon attack sub.

2) -Boomer is $1200 and available pre-radar.
-Armor is halved.
-Only 1 missile.
-Vulnerable to squids.

Goal: by moving the Boomer to T1, we are putting it on par with the typhoon and destroyer and not forcing Yuri to rush to stand a chance. We are giving him a slight naval advantage in this position (it should be smaller than his original advantage) to offset the obvious disadvantage he recieves if the boomer rush fails.

The single missile may also need lower damage or launch speed such that it can be noticed and stopped easier, unless there are many boomers firing at once (a rare sight currently). Air units should make these units easier to counter (we may give the harrier and siege chopper detection capabilities) until disks show up at Battle Lab level and take some of the pressure off. Because of this new risk, Yuri is not guaranteed to go naval and rush the enemy, but is equally likely to focus on land and play his navy defensively.

Why would we make it vulnerable to squids? Because it's cheaper now, and squids CAN be stopped on the approach.

What do you guys think? I think it's our last hope if we want to present this patch to EA Apoc without adding new units.

[truefeel]

Why would we make it vulnerable to squids? Because it's cheaper now, and squids CAN be stopped on the approach.

If that idea comes through, I woud certainly NOT do that. In soviets against soviets, squids really pwn subs. If you have 10 squids, it's enough that 5 get through.

Air units should make these units easier to counter (we may give the harrier and siege chopper detection capabilities) until disks show up at Battle Lab level and take some of the pressure off. Because of this new risk, Yuri is not guaranteed to go naval and rush the enemy, but is equally likely to focus on land and play his navy defensively

But air units are T2-T3, not T1. LIke I said, you should also add then a yuri AA naval unit. Disks are T3. You cannot just assume that all goes throughout eachother.

My problem is overall with idea: it's good for T1 and T2, but in T3 I think it'll get squashed.

[Statalyzer]

Since Yuri is supposed to take all the mind-control stuff away from the RA2 Soviet side anyway, why not try giving him the squid and making it T1 or T2 and then making the boomer T3? The squid's ability would have to be nerfed a bit most likely - and maybe the dolphin's as well, but that's ok since the dolphins needed a small nerf anyway.

[SgtRicko]

Since Yuri is supposed to take all the mind-control stuff away from the RA2 Soviet side anyway, why not try giving him the squid and making it T1 or T2 and then making the boomer T3? The squid's ability would have to be nerfed a bit most likely - and maybe the dolphin's as well, but that's ok since the dolphins needed a small nerf anyway.

That would go against the rules of changing around or adding units and such. That, and the squid is defensive only; it would force Yuri to be totally defensive from the get-go until he gets the Boomer.

[nyarlathotep]

apparently you're all trying to find a way to give yuri a normal naval unit...

Here's my idea.

The Naval Infantry Hoovercraft.

Either to be used in the same manner as the battlefortress(fireports) but no crushing boats, that might become a bit overpowered,

-or-

there's only place for one character and behaves as the allied infantry vehicle.

My two cents.

[Statalyzer]

That would go against the rules of changing around or adding units and such. That, and the squid is defensive only; it would force Yuri to be totally defensive from the get-go until he gets the Boomer.

I thought the deal was to not add units, so I thought that changing the Squid owner would be ok. Going totally defensive until Boomer still would be an improvement over the current situation, plus you could always mod the Squid to be able to slap-attack the Naval Yard if you wanted to, right?

[truefeel]

I thought the deal was to not add units, so I thought that changing the Squid owner would be ok. Going totally defensive until Boomer still would be an improvement over the current situation, plus you could always mod the Squid to be able to slap-attack the Naval Yard if you wanted to, right?

The problem is that without adding naval units for yuri, it would be near impossible to balance out the boomer as single naval unit. I'm totally against adding units, but this is a special case. In this case, it would be rather very helpfull for the balance to add a few units, pure for balance.

What I had in mind, was 2 new naval units: a new sub, completely the same as the typhoon sub, but of course in yuri style (to meet up with T1 allied/soviet style). And a gattling boat (to meet with T2 allied/soviet naval.)
. The boomer would then be redone so that it can compete, not being underclass or overclass by, with the dolphin and squid. The boomer will keep the ability of being a siege naval ship, but it's siege capabilities will be narrowed a bit.

Again, it's not for extra fun or so I want to do this. The problems is that allieds and soviets have a balanced and varied naval force. With so much variation and flexibility, it's VERY difficult to give the same to just one unit, without changing the game dramastically for the other sides.

And I aint gonna change how the squid works or for which side. First of all, it's too high tech for T1-T2. Second, yes it might be more a yuri unit LOGICAL SPEAKING. But the game designers intended to keep the squid with the soviets and on this moment, there are no real problems with that.

[wthigon]

Can I have the updated RulesMd.ini? I want to test it out in skirmish. I know it's not meant for skirmish but I want to see how the A.I. does.

[Daishi]

Me too please... :p

[truefeel]

here it is :http://forums.cncden.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3165&d=1202901797

[wthigon]

Attachment no worky = phail :p

[truefeel]

second try:

[truefeel]

UPDATE:

-boomer strength reduced to 750 (was 1200)
-normal/elite boomer sub torpedo damage reduced to 40 (was 60 in both cases; rate of fire and burst remain intact)
-cost is now 1250 (was 2000)
-amount of missiles is reduced to 1 (was 2)
-speed reduced to 15 (was 20)
-missile strength reduced to 25 (was 50)
-range missiles reduced to 15 (was 20)
UPDATE:
-ROF (regenrate cmisl) of missiles increased to 250 (was 80, so instant reload almost!)
-verses of missile changed to 100%,90%,80%,100%,80%,80%,8%,8%,10%,80%,0%% (was 100%,90%,80%,100%,80%,80%,80%,80%,65%,80%,0%)

à this is for now an attempt to get the boomer less powerfull, but also more a more mass-able unit. We’ll see if these changes will help.

I'm gonna step off from the idea of adding new units. I got this feeling that EA won't accept that anyway.

Replies on this are very welcome :).

[Teron]

I'm not sure if I like the Boomer range reduction. They already have a bit less range than ACCs/Dreadnoughts, and reducing it further might mean that they won't be any good as siege weapons simply because they won't be able to reach much anything from the shoreline. The move to cheaper, weaker, massed Boomers is something I support, tho.

[truefeel]

Basicily,, I wanna get rid of the boomer rush, making the missiles useless when any slightest form of AA is up. I know that leaves yuri without any siege naval unit, but it's the best way (I properly discussed this with piscinex). I also think this will give floating disks more use on naval maps (considering I'm gonna nerfe the AA naval units also, they are redicolous powerfull anayway).

You gotta realise though that the boomer can still pop up anywhere noticed and attack a building. If the player does not come up with a bit of AA, the building will be lost (but you got time to get AA now atleast, due to firepower reduction). and range 15 still hell of alot. that's 15 cells.

Dude, you seem me a good player. You wanna test this out with me ??

[Daishi]

I'm thinking you may have gone a little far, but we'll see how it plays out. :)

[truefeel]

No, not really. I've just made missiles almost useless against buildings, but do remember that they can be massed now. massed boomers give loads of missiles. They do however retain their damage done to vehicles.

UPDATE:
-ROF (regenrate cmisl) of missiles increased to 250 (was 80, so instant reload almost!)
-verses of missile changed to 100%,90%,80%,100%,80%,80%,12%,12%,12%,80%,0%%

(was 100%,90%,80%,100%,80%,80%,80%,80%,65%,80%,0%)


On the moment I'm playing around with the missiles. Missiles are now just pressuring tools

UPDATE2:
cost of boomer is now 1500, but is buillt faster then price suggests.

UPDATE3:
the frames that the missile stays at the dock of the boomer has been increased to 100 (was 20). This means you'll have more time react now. People will be better prepared from were the boomer is.

UPDATE4: price back to 1250; decreased the frames of the missile staying on the deck back to 70. (NOTE: this is not the complete amount of frames before it is launched ! you have to count up 100 frames before it launches )

UPDATE5:
-boomer missiles regenrate (basicilly the rate of fire) increased to 400 (was 250 previous); it now fires as fast as a V3.
-boomer missile strentgh slightly increased to 35 (was 25)
-boomer torpedoes damage slightly increased to 45 (you have to double that amount b/c the boomer fires 2 torpedoes simultanelously.) (was 40)
-boomer torpedoe ROF slightly decreased to 110 (was 120)
-boomer missile range increased back to 20 (was 15 previous)
--> this makes that you have more time to respond on boomer missiles. however, boomers are now a bit more effective against destroyers/subs.

These changes might seem overwelming, but really are just small tweaks. You still can use boomer missiles to kill buildings, but it'll just mean you need to have ALOT of boomers to kill a single building (with a small quantitie of AA). Boomers are now more for fighting off destroyers/soviet subs. it's not a rush unit anymore.

Personally, I'm glad with these changes; boomers can now win 1on1 from a sub (but barely) (due they are 250 credits more expensive also). They also still have the ability to attack ground based objects, but you need alot of boomers now to do the same damage as with the regular one. Soviets should use flak to counter the missiles, allieds rocketeers and yuri gatt/floating disks. I also wanna mention that floating disks probably will become -due the changes to the boomer- significant more important on naval.

[Fenring]

And this is why you simply cannot effectively balance Yuri's navy without new units to fill in the empty spaces. It's a nice effort, truefeel, but it feels like it makes Yuri's naval presence that much weaker.

[Statalyzer]

I have a feeling that with this, players can now just completely ignore the Yuri naval threat if they want to go ground - which you can't do when facing Allies/Soviets. Scatter a few cheap AA units and then ground rush, and if Yuri wants to beat you with naval it'll cost him so much that you can easily destroy him on land, you don't even have to build a navy.

[Daishi]

Yes, Statalyzer. But what does that mean?

1. It means we've killed the Boomer rush.
2. It means Yuri can hold back your navy.

Balaaaaaaance...


I do hope we can make it so that the Boomer remains fun to use, just not so effective anymore.

[Fenring]

It means Yuri's naval presence has been nulled entirely, making it pointless to even use. That is not balance.

[Rowmen]

This is kinda of a weak idea but really easy to put to use, why dont you just give Yuri the same naval units as the soviets. I mean he used to be a soviet so it does make sense.Then you don't have to worry about balancing.

[Daishi]

It means Yuri's naval presence has been nulled entirely, making it pointless to even use. That is not balance.

First off, this is not the final product. When we're done with it, it'll be equal to the other navies at radar level and good against battle lab tech with disk support, all the while not posing a major threat until there are at least $4000 worth of boomers fielded.

I think it's totally possible, we just need to rework this unit a bit so that it fits well with the disk without being devastating early on against either Allies or Soviets unless extra time/effort is put into production. Perfection may be impossible, but we're just aiming for playability right now.

Also, no one who hasn't played this new boomer can make a judgement about its balance.

[Teron]

One thing. If Boomers are radar tech and cost 1250, and can barely beat a sub...
What's the point in them? Subs are cheaper, beat a Boomer to near death and are yard tech. In other words, when you've got a couple Boomers, any Soviet intending to go naval already has a small fleet of subs that just rape your Boomers.
And now that letting a Boomer through is not anywhere near as dangerous as it was in the past, he can just quickly kill them one by one.

Basically, now Yuri's navy has a single purpose: To force people who intend to pursue a ground-only strat to build AA. If the opponent intends to go naval, there's little point in going naval with Yuri. The opposition's yard tech navy will rape his, and then ACCs/Dreads will come for a visit. I don't like it.

[Daishi]

One thing. If Boomers are radar tech and cost 1250, and can barely beat a sub...
What's the point in them? Subs are cheaper, beat a Boomer to near death and are yard tech. In other words, when you've got a couple Boomers, any Soviet intending to go naval already has a small fleet of subs that just rape your Boomers.
And now that letting a Boomer through is not anywhere near as dangerous as it was in the past, he can just quickly kill them one by one.

Basically, now Yuri's navy has a single purpose: To force people who intend to pursue a ground-only strat to build AA. If the opponent intends to go naval, there's little point in going naval with Yuri. The opposition's yard tech navy will rape his, and then ACCs/Dreads will come for a visit. I don't like it.

Like I said, this is the beta and we'll most likely be augmenting the Boomer further after testing. If we can make it so, the sub will be virtually equal to the sub and to the destroyer when we're done. Nevertheless, let me just remind you Yuri always did play that exact same role in naval: the only undeniable difference so far is now he's not game-breakingly OP in forcing you to build AA.

[truefeel]

Let me get things straight. First of all, it's not done yet.
Second, what I did with the boomer is that it is basicilly can win 1on1 against a sub, but not with too much heatlh left (due it's only 250 credits more expensive). I might agree though it needs a small more buff against subs.
Thirth, it's now ment mainly to fight subs/destroyers.

but it feels like it makes Yuri's naval presence that much weaker.

Yes and no. No, b/c is now a more cost effective tool against subs/destroyers (in normal YR 2 subs/destroyer win of a boomer). Yes b/c yuri gotta miss an effective naval siege unit. Remember though: boomer do not cost 2000 credits anymore and by that it is a massable unit and it can still fire a missile. That missile is considerable weakened, but you aslo gotta remember it's not just one sub anymore normally, but probably 10+.

This is kinda of a weak idea but really easy to put to use, why dont you just give Yuri the same naval units as the soviets. I mean he used to be a soviet so it does make sense.Then you don't have to worry about balancing.
New units (and practically calling they are) change the game too much, that and I fear EA is not going to accept that. It is not a weak idea btw, it is called compensating.

I have a feeling that with this, players can now just completely ignore the Yuri naval threat if they want to go ground - which you can't do when facing Allies/Soviets. Scatter a few cheap AA units and then ground rush, and if Yuri wants to beat you with naval it'll cost him so much that you can easily destroy him on land, you don't even have to build a navy.

Yuri can also ignore naval. allieds and soviets can ignore eachother their naval actually. What yuri needs to use against a fast dread/carrier is either a yuri prime, a floating disk, ... . Those units have not been much used in naval, but can actually be considered as naval, just like rocketeers can be. Yuri will work now more as the other sides: if the opponent player masses naval, he'll also do that. if the opponent goes only ground, but goes for a fast dread, yuri can go solely ground and use units against the dread he can use later on anyway.

Basically, now Yuri's navy has a single purpose: To force people who intend to pursue a ground-only strat to build AA. If the opponent intends to go naval, there's little point in going naval with Yuri. The opposition's yard tech navy will rape his, and then ACCs/Dreads will come for a visit. I don't like it.

Not exactly; yuri navy has now the purpose of fighting other naval. I'll also make sure the boomer will be able to fight T3 naval units without being in the disadvantage.

Guys, don't go so negative about it. The boomer is good enough to fight off other naval, if that is T1,T2 or T3; it makes no difference: the boomer is balanced with all.

UPDATE:
there, I changed the damage done by one torpedo of the boomer to 50. That's 100 damage for both, which is the same as the sub. But boomers have 750 armour, while subs have 600. And on top of that, boomer have a ROF of 110, while the sub has 120. So it's now actually more cost-effective then the sub. Now happy everybody ?

[Teron]

I like the sound of the latest changes. Now they can compensate for the earlier production of their opponents and fight a naval war. If they win, massed missiles will still be a threat, but they need to be Massed. I'd say you're certainly headed in the right direction:
Effective anti-naval units. When the enemy fleet is defeated, the entire fleet can begin sieging the enemy base, compensating for the lower missile damage.
Essentially: Most everything is as it should be, and the boomer rush as such is dead.

[Rowmen]

New units (and practically calling they are) change the game too much, that and I fear EA is not going to accept that. It is not a weak idea btw, it is called compensating.



It was idea for his update not Ea

[truefeel]

I'm not going to add new units. It is possible to balance out the boomer solely. I just need more feedback + if anybody is interested to test it out with me online.

I like the sound of the latest changes. Now they can compensate for the earlier production of their opponents and fight a naval war. If they win, massed missiles will still be a threat, but they need to be Massed. I'd say you're certainly headed in the right direction:
Effective anti-naval units. When the enemy fleet is defeated, the entire fleet can begin sieging the enemy base, compensating for the lower missile damage.
Essentially: Most everything is as it should be, and the boomer rush as such is dead.

Yeh thx man. I think with my fix for the boomer one of the biggest problems has been wiped from the table.

[Fenring]

Boomers were fine as they were honestly. They just need an announcement, if it wasn't already, and a nerf on torpedoes. And make AA weapons track the missiles a little better.

[Daishi]

Fenring, we could definitely have used this idea earlier! :D It will be considered.

[truefeel]

Boomers were fine as they were honestly. They just need an announcement, if it wasn't already, and a nerf on torpedoes. And make AA weapons track the missiles a little better.

The torpedoes were not the problem. 2 subs could take out a boomer with ease. Problem is that you would a) not know from were the boomer will attack and b) you need alot of AA to take it down and c) it occured within 3 minutes, giving you only little time to counter it. Problem is on a naval map you know he will boomer rush. You don't need the announcement, b/c any yuri player with basic knowledge will use it.

Nerving the missiles would take it out, yes. but then you have an underpowered boomer. that's now what we want either. Therefore I reworked the complete boomer to this point.

[Fenring]

At least with the announcement, you know it's coming so you'll be watching for it, or at least planning for it. And if you do a slight nerf on torpedoes, anyone with a navy should be able to cost for cost the Boomer easily enough.

And you could do what I did to all missile types - they do half their original damage but their missiles move a bit faster. They can be tracked and destroyed easily and they don't decimate everything in one shot each time. Still takes more than 1 Boomer to be effective.

[Rowmen]

If you guys are scared from yuri in a naval match, then easy avoid it, if your in qm and you know the person you VSing is yuri and what map is played(Naval)cancel before you guys connect. Sure its the cowards way but then you dont gotta worry. Alot of people cancel on maps they dislike....

[truefeel]

At least with the announcement, you know it's coming so you'll be watching for it, or at least planning for it. And if you do a slight nerf on torpedoes, anyone with a navy should be able to cost for cost the Boomer easily enough.

And you could do what I did to all missile types - they do half their original damage but their missiles move a bit faster. They can be tracked and destroyed easily and they don't decimate everything in one shot each time. Still takes more than 1 Boomer to be effective.

On a naval map against yuri you'll always know it'll be coming. the announcement does not change that. If you wait with building with AA until the announcement, you are in most cases far too late. The players who know this strategy, will be cautious for it and do know around which time the boomer will be there trying to destroy a building. Problem is, with or without announcement, you do not know from where it will attack.

If I nerve the torpedoes, the problem is not solved, as yuri will still be able to use the one thing it makes it overpowered: the missiles. And half of the damage is not enough: that is still enough to destroy buildings like a war factory; if the missiles get through, you'll loose the building; that is reinforced with making them faster. So you gotta nerve the missiles even more to bring the other player not in strategical/economic disadvantage. but at that point yuri is in the disadvantage with his boomer, b/c the missiles can't do a thing and the boomer will get destroyed (2 subs/destroyer against 1 boomer win already in regular YR; nerving the missiles will make that even worse).

[Statalyzer]

It's "nerf", not "nerve" :p

[Fenring]

On a naval map against yuri you'll always know it'll be coming. the announcement does not change that. If you wait with building with AA until the announcement, you are in most cases far too late. The players who know this strategy, will be cautious for it and do know around which time the boomer will be there trying to destroy a building. Problem is, with or without announcement, you do not know from where it will attack.

If I nerve the torpedoes, the problem is not solved, as yuri will still be able to use the one thing it makes it overpowered: the missiles. And half of the damage is not enough: that is still enough to destroy buildings like a war factory; if the missiles get through, you'll loose the building; that is reinforced with making them faster. So you gotta nerve the missiles even more to bring the other player not in strategical/economic disadvantage. but at that point yuri is in the disadvantage with his boomer, b/c the missiles can't do a thing and the boomer will get destroyed (2 subs/destroyer against 1 boomer win already in regular YR; nerving the missiles will make that even worse).
Half damage on the missiles actually takes two volleys to destroy a war factory and a refinery, and even the radar as I recall. I've tested this on my current project and it takes two rounds.

Here's what I have set for the Cruise Missile settings;
CMislDamage=140 ; changed

CMislEliteDamage=280 ; changed


And the missile itself;
Speed=22

Missiles can easily be destroyed, and don't do mountains of damage. If you're really that worried about them being OP, modify the warhead settings to dissipate the damage faster with PercentAtMax.


Something else I've wondered, have you gone and evened out any unusual things like Strength ratings, and the like? The Genetic Mutator has 250 more health than the equivalent structures for the Allies/Soviets and the Allied AFC HQ/American version have 400 less health than the other two radar structures. Done that yet? :p

[truefeel]

I've just changed the verses, making the missiles do 4 times less damage against buildings.

Missiles can easily be destroyed, and don't do mountains of damage. If you're really that worried about them being OP, modify the warhead settings to dissipate the damage faster with PercentAtMax.

You made the missiles go speedier, and that makes it more a problem. You see, AA units all target the first missile. The first missile does not pose a threat, but the second one does, b/c all AA goes the second missile until that one is destroyed, giving the second missile the time needed to get through. You've increased the speed, and thus decreased the chance the second missile also gets down before it's near a building.

Something else I've wondered, have you gone and evened out any unusual things like Strength ratings, and the like? The Genetic Mutator has 250 more health than the equivalent structures for the Allies/Soviets and the Allied AFC HQ/American version have 400 less health than the other two radar structures. Done that yet? :p

No, I didn't tought about that, but that's why I have you guys to point me on that :p.

[Daishi]

I'll be on MSN in 3 hours for some beta.

[Rowmen]

Id like to see how it turns out

[Fenring]

I've just changed the verses, making the missiles do 4 times less damage against buildings.
Then Boomers are entirely worthless. Even with a decreased cost, there's no point in bothering.

You made the missiles go speedier, and that makes it more a problem. You see, AA units all target the first missile. The first missile does not pose a threat, but the second one does, b/c all AA goes the second missile until that one is destroyed, giving the second missile the time needed to get through. You've increased the speed, and thus decreased the chance the second missile also gets down before it's near a building.
If you stop one, you're sacking out half of their damage so you're only doing 140 plus whatever your cell spread and dissipation is and then whatever your armor percentages. Besides, all it takes is 2 Flak Tracks to stop both missiles, and you only need one, maybe two, Gattling Tanks. The only loser is the Allies with their craptacular AA, which you can get around by increasing its projectile flight speed and turbo boosting it like the Aegis Cruiser.

Now, unless you're getting bombarded by five or more Boomers, you're not really losing out.

Besides, you can't just nerf a unit without compensating that nerf. That's a key principle you seem to have forgotten. That said, lowering the cost is not an effective compensation.

No, I didn't tought about that, but that's why I have you guys to point me on that :p.
There's quite a few inconsistencies around like that, and it's not just on strength ratings on structures. The amphib. transports are uneven. Oh, and have you reworked Yuri's power so it's not the most cost effective and space efficient?

[truefeel]

Then Boomers are entirely worthless. Even with a decreased cost, there's no point in bothering.

not at all; they are now a bit more cost effective then subs/destroyers. So they are in first place now a counter against those.

If you stop one, you're sacking out half of their damage so you're only doing 140 plus whatever your cell spread and dissipation is and then whatever your armor percentages. Besides, all it takes is 2 Flak Tracks to stop both missiles, and you only need one, maybe two, Gattling Tanks. The only loser is the Allies with their craptacular AA, which you can get around by increasing its projectile flight speed and turbo boosting it like the Aegis Cruiser.


As I said before, you do not know from which side the boomer will attack, so you gotta spread out the flak tracks. If missiles would get stopped the way you are saying, I wouldn't had to nerve it

Oh, and have you reworked Yuri's power so it's not the most cost effective and space efficient?

I will work on that, but it's not my prior point on the balance agenda. And space is something you can't balance almost. I'm not planning to balance the game into the insane :p. I do completely agree on the power though.

[Fenring]

Since you've drastically slowed the respawn rate on Boomers, you should just be able to watch for it to surface. If he has a navy, you should as well so you should have uncovered the shroud big time.

You could do what I did - lower initial power output to 100 and up to cost to $700 so it's between the Allies and Soviets.

[truefeel]

Since you've drastically slowed the respawn rate on Boomers, you should just be able to watch for it to surface. If he has a navy, you should as well so you should have uncovered the shroud big time.

You forgot a "small" detail: if it comes down to a navy battle, navy units gets massed. So what do you think the effect of that many boomer missiles are, firing from different spots ?

[Fenring]

If he has that many, you should be packing plenty of Typhoons and Sea Scorpions. There's more ways around the Boomer than just lowering its damage.

[truefeel]

If he has that many, you should be packing plenty of Typhoons and Sea Scorpions. There's more ways around the Boomer than just lowering its damage.

But boomers are now a bit more cost effective against typhoons. That bit of advantage can be sacrificed for taking the 3 seconds to fire the missile.

[Statalyzer]

If he has a navy, you should as well so you should have uncovered the shroud big time.

I'm not sure if you'd even need a Navy. If he's got enough Boomers to be a threat, you can probably wipe the floor with his army.

[truefeel]

I'm not sure if you'd even need a Navy. If he's got enough Boomers to be a threat, you can probably wipe the floor with his army.

If the opponent does not go for a navy, the yuri player will also not do that. If the opponent does make a navy, the yuri player will also do, as boomers are now counters against subs, destroyers, squids and dolphins.