Lion's Weekend Blurb - April 7-8

[Lion]

It's been a while, so for the weekend I'll open up discussions on the continuing war in Iraq. Yes, tis still a huge mess, and not really getting any better. The US Congress, controlled by the Democrats, wants to limit funding for the war. In other words, they want to cut off funding for combat operations and limit our role in Iraq to training the Iraqi peeps to defend themselves, and to provide security for US personnel and infrastructure in that country. Some recent Pentagon reports are now claiming that Iraq is in a current state of 'civil war' between the various factions. They finally caught up to what the rest of us already knew. I'm all for supporting the US troops in Iraq, but if Congress is gonna cut funding and limit our role in the war, then we're looking at a stalemate, and it becomes a no win situation for all involved. Accept of course for the terrorists, who continue to pick off the US troops and other coalition members on a daily basis. They've become nothing more than targets of opportunity for the insurgents. I'm all for democracy in Iraq, but is the price becoming too high now? Feel free to chime in on Lion's Weekend Blurb.

[zgtrman97]

Being ex military myself..I have to side with Congress..it is obvious that the people in Iraq are going to fight whether we are there or not. That has been recorded in history for eons and nobody is going to be able to stop it.
The price of this war is way too high and it needs to stop right now...It is my opinion that we should have never gone over there in the first place. If we have the technology to read the date off of a dime on a sidewalk with a satellite..then we have the technology to take out all key personell that threaten our country. A little extreme I know but you get the point.
I am all for pulling out of there and let them fight amoungst themselves and when there numbers are low..then we strike.

[warstomp]

It's been a while, so for the weekend I'll open up discussions on the continuing war in Iraq. Yes, tis still a huge mess, and not really getting any better. The US Congress, controlled by the Democrats, wants to limit funding for the war. In other words, they want to cut off funding for combat operations and limit our role in Iraq to training the Iraqi peeps to defend themselves, and to provide security for US personnel and infrastructure in that country. Some recent Pentagon reports are now claiming that Iraq is in a current state of 'civil war' between the various factions. They finally caught up to what the rest of us already knew. I'm all for supporting the US troops in Iraq, but if Congress is gonna cut funding and limit our role in the war, then we're looking at a stalemate, and it becomes a no win situation for all involved. Accept of course for the terrorists, who continue to pick off the US troops and other coalition members on a daily basis. They've become nothing more than targets of opportunity for the insurgents. I'm all for democracy in Iraq, but is the price becoming too high now? Feel free to chime in on Lion's Weekend Blurb.

Well its becoming a Proxy war between Syria and iran funding shietes or however ya spell their name. Turkey funding extremist kurds. Terrorists not making it any better contributing. And unfortunantly saudi arabia funding extremist Sunnis. If we leave it could become a 2nd kashmir between 4 nations and terrorists who want it. If we stay we lose more people. But the thing is a lot of their people are happy we are there but unfortunantly their are many charismatic ones also. Well the cost for the war is only 1% of our total economic output so that says something. Were as past wars presidents had to call of citizens to buy those bond things. Its kind of the decision do we want to leave and let these 4 countrys move in divide the country and possibly have war over it. Or stay and lose more troops and spend more money. You know we probally when the first george bush was president should of fully gone in then. Because back then all but 1 province in saddams regime was having a revolt after he got pushed out of kuwait. And the revolters were waiting for some western nation to come and save them and help them push saddam out. Back then we would of had a easy job. We also gotta look at what will happen if we leave. If we leave and the middle east starts fighting over these territorys. What about the oil. What if iran steam rolled over saudi arabia and some other middle east nations. What about gas prices then.

The way I see it is if we leave we risk having a massive war in the middle east between the 4 nations I listed above. And if we stay we risk losing more troops and possibly end up finding we wasted out time there. I personally think we need to stay. But it looks like democrats are ganna fling up the white flag of surrender. Lets just all hope hilary clinton is not our next president.

[Demeuser]

This is a tough situation. Basically a damned if you do, damned if you don't. Pulling out the troops would most likely lead to a return of a dictatorship? Keeping them in Iraq puts the troops in harm's way. I am not sure what the call is, because either way we lose. Those that died, will have died in vain if the country returns back to its pre-war state after a pull-out. Being a former Army-dog tanker, I know that I would not want to fight against a "Nod" type enemy. The basic premise behind a war is that the soldiers/leaders you are fighting against value life. If soldiers do not care if they die, then it is tough (impossible) to fight against them.

Maybe they could just play a game like C&C 3 to see who wins? He He. At least real people would not die.

[Rocketerz]

Ya, it's definitly time to pull out...Bush got us in the mess now we (democrats) gotta clean it up....as usual. :rolleyes:

[Lion]

Ya, it's definitly time to pull out...Bush got us in the mess now we (democrats) gotta clean it up....as usual. :rolleyes:

Really? I haven't heard one democrat give a good solution to the problem in Iraq. Now let's NOT start a political debate.

[WNxAnthrax]

Really? I haven't heard one democrat give a good solution to the problem in Iraq. Now let's NOT start a political debate.

:tantrum: Personally i think we stay but were damned if we do damned if we don't. All i gotta say is if we pull out i hope our country gets another terrorist attack so we can all blame it on the P.O.S. Democrats who voted to get out.

[Gaucho8788]

Hey, that is not really necesary to show that what has happened or will hapen was wrong choices. Asking for a terrorist attack to show that the democrats were wrong is like asking satan to rip your nuts off to show you can no longer have kids. I mean you just don't ask for stuff like that.

[hissingnewt]

Really? I haven't heard one democrat give a good solution to the problem in Iraq. Now let's NOT start a political debate.


:D So true. We shouldn't pull out because that will screw Iraq up really badly, but if we stay, more soldiers will die. The only real way to solve it is to either kill all of the terrorists with a minimum of civilian casualties or convince them they are wrong. The second one is probably the best.

[OneWiseSith]

Mankind is very, very diverse, every component of the human race is a Mosaic displaying the diversity of the mind or lack there of. My mind has live in a free world, my free world is Ontario, Canada, I took for granted the first 19 years of my life & the way I lived. Cars, computers, video games, clean water, free doctors and hospitals. When I was in school I traveled abroad much, I always stayed with the people in the community where they lived & never in a motel (except in places where kidnapping is lucrative). This experience over many, many years has led me to see that I was not only givin freedom as a person, I also had freedom of the mind. Most of this world is not as fortunate as I. Now this is a problem unlike the world has ever seen.

[SuperSixFour]

http://tank.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MWIzZmY5ODg3MWVhNTA3MTlmYmI0MWM0OWM3NjEzNmY=
I don't trust the mainstream media on Iraq...this is a column written by someone over there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9Yc3wYJOtI

[SgtRicko]

Mankind is very, very diverse, every component of the human race is a Mosaic displaying the diversity of the mind or lack there of. My mind has live in a free world, my free world is Ontario, Canada, I took for granted the first 19 years of my life & the way I lived. Cars, computers, video games, clean water, free doctors and hospitals. When I was in school I traveled abroad much, I always stayed with the people in the community where they lived & never in a motel (except in places where kidnapping is lucrative). This experience over many, many years has led me to see that I was not only givin freedom as a person, I also had freedom of the mind. Most of this world is not as fortunate as I. Now this is a problem unlike the world has ever seen.

How so???:rockbrow:

[Rocketerz]

I'm going with Super, now days the media is so corrupted. A lot of stuff is being covered up over there, Sure some good is going on, but from what I see is mainly bad. In my opinion, Sure fight terrorism. But we cant do it alone, Britain is pulling out? No one helping us? We pull out.

P.S. I wasn't trying to start a political debate, just merely state which has happen in past presidencies.

[warstomp]

http://tank.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MWIzZmY5ODg3MWVhNTA3MTlmYmI0MWM0OWM3NjEzNmY=
I don't trust the mainstream media on Iraq...this is a column written by someone over there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9Yc3wYJOtI


That video was awesome. Pointed out just how I feel :)

[whano123]

I say we give this new general Patreus an oppurtunity to work this out. I think he is the type of guy that can get the job done. I also believe he'd be the first person to tell Bush that nothing is going to work, we must pull out.


No politics, should've known.

[zgtrman97]

I veiwed the video and I can understand what he is saying...but one thing kept coming to my mind as I watched the video..Inasmuch as in a war both sides think that they are right in what they are fighting for, we must understand that we are in their country...they are a culture that has different views than we do on many different aspects of life and religeon. Let us not forget that this culture, as with any culture did not just spring up overnight...no it took centuries to get where they are at now.
However..there is one undisputable and ireverable truth that is afforded to all mankind regardless of race, color, creed, or religeon...and that is the freedom of choice. All of mankind has freewill which is from birth to death. Sure we could talk simantecs until we are blue in the face but it would be pointless in trying to discount freewill because it will always be there and cannot be dissolved.
In my earlier post I stated that we should have never gone their in the first place.. that is because even if we succeed in obtaining our objective...I can gaurantee you that within a decade it will start up all over again..maybe not in the same way as it is today but it will start up again..I am talking about their way of life that they choose to live. Look there is nothing keeping anybody in that country. They have the freewill to pack up and move to another part of the world..if the factions over there want to fight over who has more sand than the other..well I say let them fight it out..but common sense dictates that if your enviorment is causing you harm..it's time to move to another area that is not detrimental to your health. If we were to just use the funds we have spent on trying to fight a war against an ideology that has been in place since the dawn of time and just get those who want to leave out...there would be no reason for ANYONE to die that doesnt have any interest in those factions fighting over terrirtory.

[darkelf2x1]

out of curiosity why dont we sound off on our political affiliation when we post a response

why?

because of the topic - the war spending bill - a political topic

my stance - let the bill pass as is
1. it supports the troops
2. it forces the iraqis to step up - flimsy i know but
3. shows that US commitment is not open ended
- please note that republicans have been spouting some of this




- - - - -
:tantrum: :tantrum: :tantrum: :tantrum: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant:
personally i think bush is being a hypocrite - he states that the us involvement is not open ended yet fails to prove it + hes supporting the troops by vetoing the bill thats supposed to give them money they need according to him.

as for the pork spending - we live in a democracy if you dont make deals nothing gets done... and you forget the key factor of self interest - that and the politicians on both sides of the aisle are ___es...

[Slapper]

I was at 1st a backer of Bush's Force Control plan. I still believe there can be a positive side to that plan, all the the Forces are not in place yet, the Frontline Troops that are pegged to go there are not yet deployed. Being a Ground Pounder at various times over the years, i understand what the U.S Military has in mind and it could work....maybe.

But that being said, my own opinion about Iraq, Afghanistan and any Muslim country over there is that:

1. Noone has ever been successful in occupying any Muslim state for long throughout all of history and the blood cost of doing so is way too high. That answers the" is the price too high" question, Its always been too high.....The Russians learned that in the 80's guys, too bad GW and his bunch didnt take that lesson, nor my own Goverment either, they all forgot that a Superpower got pushed out by the Taliban and Osama and his village idiots using Terrorists tactics and hit and run attacks. The Russians found that very distasteful and pulled out....thats where Osama got his start in case some of you were not aware of that fact. Funded by the CIA...go figure.

2. a Poster said it best here, you cannot fight a regular War with anyone who does not respect life, zealots ready to die for their cause and kill innocents. Said that 100 times on this forum. Its not a fight that Western Forces are used to, trained for, or can ingest at 1st deployment. I myself had my years with trying to understand the Muslim mind and what makes them so crazy over Religion. It boggles the mind to see what some are capable of in the name of Allah, albeit twisted versions of Islam.

3. The Bush Admin miscalculated when they thought removing Saddam would work and someone responsible would step in. Who did they think was keeping the lid on the fight between Sunni's and Shia's? He kept them from doing exactly what they are doing to each other right now, i still cannot believe they missed that part when planning this thing. He had to be cold and ruthless at times to stop this Civil War thing that Politicians refuse to admit is a Civil War, as if we are all blind, mainstream or otherwise, we see what's going on. Yes he mistreated the Kurds and Shia's, but that whole Middle Eastern place is all about Clans and Religion and alliances of the moment and of convenience to gain the upper hand and keep your people safe. You cannot make a society that never has respected Goverment or rule of law for 10,000 years, suddenly embrace the mostly Western, Christian way of life. They are Muslims living in thier homelands living like their ancestors did and refuse to get with the rest of us, to North American, EU standards of living. Thats their choice.. noone can force them to do this, if they want it, they need to do it for themselves and not what Bush, Blair or anyone else wants....

As a last point, Lion dude, i am one of your biggest and long time fans here, but posting a topic like this and then asking people to not get political, well, my man, i cant seem to understand that. Nothing personal big guy, but if ya open the can of worms, expect this topic is ALL about Politics at the end of the day, and when a Dem posts you seemed to jump on him...This whole topic is political...at least from where im standing it is. I purposefully did not get overly political so as not to annoy you, but i deffo would have a lot to say about how this whole mess has went down and how poorly planned and thought out it was and whose screwed up and what to do now. but ill leave it, im not a Dem or Rep, im a Canadian and really aint my beeswacks. but that doesnt mean i dont have a Political stance on the decisions made/being made in Washington at this time or right from the word go.

I would never question you, you are wise and honest and polite folk, i respect you like my own Brother, but i believe you made a small error asking that Dem not to post his view. This is a political situation from start to finish and a good debate is what this topic invites. Of course thats from my point of view.

[Probowler]

That video summed up how I feel pretty nicely. If we loose this war, it is because of the Democrats. Whether it's by exposing our strategy to the Terrorists or udermining any of our successes in Iraq, the Democrats would do anything to loose this war and get back in power.

[NuclearDreams]

I think that whole area is one big eternal chess board.

[darkelf2x1]

That video summed up how I feel pretty nicely. If we loose this war, it is because of the Democrats. Whether it's by exposing our strategy to the Terrorists or udermining any of our successes in Iraq, the Democrats would do anything to loose this war and get back in power.


what a about repulican incompetence as well?

[hissingnewt]

what a about repulican incompetence as well?

It doesn't lose wars, only molests pages (Foley).

[darkelf2x1]

- so not giving the troops enough armor when they controlled the purse strings isnt incompetence?
- not sending enough troops despite warnings from the commanders that bush supposedly listens to?

because remember the dems inherited this cluster f--- from the republicans

and lets not forget hitler, his incompetence helped to win the war for us

although the dems lost the war for us because they didnt make a stand against the republicans...


- - - - -

from what i can infer about the logic your using
- clinton was responsible for the economic boom during his terms
(but any senisble republican on the defensive would point out that economics is cyclical)
but then they can bring out the fact that bush senior had the balls to sacrifice a second term by going back on his word which helped this nation recover from reaganomics...

- - - - -

[Gaucho8788]

Seems like this is turning into a political debate anyways.

[darkelf2x1]

it is a political issue

[Arakane]

The cost in human life over this war-that-never-should-have-been is beyond tragic. To the US,financially,we are nearing the trillion-dollar mark in costs the last I read on it. Wasted money,wasted lives all because of a nation manipulated and lied to by a White House controlled by some of the
worst elements in US History. Should funds be cut-off ?..should have happened a long time ago, long overdue. If the replublican near stale-mate
in the Senate,and of course The oppostion from 1600 pennsylvania avenue
could be hurdled, what should really happen is for our forces to be withdrawn
immediately and brought home. Furthur, I believe the "architects" of this war
should be arrested and put on trial for treason .


Arakane

[Missle Launch Detected!]

The cost in human life over this war-that-never-should-have-been is beyond tragic. To the US,financially,we are nearing the trillion-dollar mark in costs the last I read on it. Wasted money,wasted lives all because of a nation manipulated and lied to by a White House controlled by some of the
worst elements in US History. Should funds be cut-off ?..should have happened a long time ago, long overdue. If the replublican near stale-mate
in the Senate,and of course The oppostion from 1600 pennsylvania avenue
could be hurdled, what should really happen is for our forces to be withdrawn
immediately and brought home. Furthur, I believe the "architects" of this war
should be arrested and put on trial for treason .


Arakane

Much more than a trillion I hear now.