Game balance (bloody long)

[Sanguinius_nz]

First off this is for discussion of balance issues in the game, all views expressed here are my personal opinion, if you disagree with anything feel free but make constructive comments and explain how you would do it. Saying "OMG you are a n00b you don't know anything" doesn't help.

Lets face it in all seriousness C&C3 has some serious balance issues. Mammoths the one stop shop that makes almost every other GDI unit a waste of time to build. The avatar not only do you have to build it (at greater cost than the mammoth) but then you have to destroy 4 of your units to get it fully upgraded and it will still fall over to a railgun mammoth. Scrin are closer to being balanced than the other 2 races in the game funnily enough as their infantry is not totally useless and there don't appear to be any really mass spammable units that you can just pump out to win the fight for you or that could be my inexperience with scrin talking. Infantry that is totally pointless aside from the super specialists the incessant tank spam. The list goes on.

So lets look at the various sides and what can be done about it (BTW not touching on scrin, they seem fairly well balanced on the whole of things but I lack much experience vs them to be able to take a good look at them)

Infantry:
Make infantry more usable in the game. While tanks ability to run over infantry has been a mainstay in the series something needs to be done concerning infantries total uselessness in this game. There should be some sort of penalty for tanks just driving over infantry and anti tank infantry such as GDI rocket inf need buffing vs tanks. I will look at specific issues with each unit as I go through the factions.

Riflemen/Militant Squads:
Used to pretty much counter other infantry squads, currently totally useless as infantry barely gets used and a couple of anti inf tanks work out better anyway.
Riflemen are fodder supposed to soak up a valuable opening barrage in the initial conflict. unfortunately you can run them over with no penalty at all and they are pretty much ignored due to their rather bad dmg to anything except other infantry units.
Couple of ideas:
Running them over causes enemy tanks to slow down. Making a mix of riflemen and missile squads could be nasty to tanks with riflemen screening the missile squads they should have time to kill the tanks.
Researchable upgrade, usable ability that allows a rifleman squad to attach a bomb to a vehicle. while the bomb won't be insta kill it should take a fair chunk of health away possibly percentage based say a quarter to a third of the unit health, only usable on vehicles. On a cool down timer of say about 30 seconds to a minute. Makes it usable about once a battle and means tanks need to be cautious about going to run over the squad.

Missile/Militant Rocket Squads
Supposedly anti tank infantry unit, suffers from most of the same issue as the riflemen in that they are easily run over for no penalty. The other issue is that the damage they do to tanks is rather abysmal requiring you to have probably close to triple the cost of the tank to kill it in a one on one situation. Easiest solution I can see is to add a 3rd person to the squad upping the DPS just a notch. In my estimation 2 rocket squads should be able to take out 1 pred with the loss of one squad currently this isn't the case.

Engineers/Saboteurs
No issues in general with these guys fit their roll just fine, probably as they are not really an offensive unit in that they tote around weapons and shoot stuff :P

Grenadier Squad
They do their job very well and its probably just due to lack of infantry that we don't really see these bad boys. One thing I would like seeing they are carrying big packs of grenades with them is they cause damage to whatever rolls them over when the grenades all detonate.

Black Hand
Like grenadiers they do their jobs well but due to a lack of infantry (also due to a lack of garrison able structures on some maps) they tend to fall short. Same thing as with Grenadiers they should go boom when run over seeing they are wearing big tanks of explosive fuel on their backs and all :D

Sniper Team
No particular issue with them although one refinement would be an ammo switch ability so your snipers can either damage infantry or tanks. The tank damage would not be as great so you would need say a 2-3 sniper teams to tank out the most basic tank in any appreciable time duration but it would mean that they are not totally useless once the infantry is dead

Fantaics
Actually no problems with these guys they work well in the hands of someone who knows how to use em.

Commando
No issues with the commando for either Nod or GDI. Fulfills its roll well as anti inf and structure killer.

Zone Troopers
They are a great unit able to take on tanks and infantry but vulnerable to air with their jump pack ability I have no issues with these guys.

Shadow Teams
Great little units that do what they were designed to do, no issues with this unit.

Vehicles:
One of the biggest problems with the game is that it focuses completely on the tanks and even within that field certain tanks just don't get used at all.

Pitbull/Attack bike
Both these units sever pretty much the same role in the game, fast scout units with rockets that can hit ground and air with stealth detection. Both suffer from the same problems. Low dmg vs pretty much everything and flimsy as all hells. Their biggest issue from what I have seen is that they die fast to direct fire but have to get within firing range. Easy solution is to increase the range on these units so that they can out range most units actually making them usable hit and runners. Also up their sight range to make them useful spotters for artillery units as well.

Raider Buggy
Most of the problems for this unit stems from the fact that it is primarily anti infantry with limited AA capabilities. Due to the lack of infantry use in the game it primary role makes it quite useless. Its emp coil ability can be a real fight turner but it shouldn't be restricted to just a one trick pony. Fix the infantry issues and suddenly it becomes more useful to have some of these in your force or even used to scout with attack bikes.

Predator/Scorpion
I actually have no overwhelming issues with these two. The only thing I don't like is the rail gun upgrade for the Predator making it so powerful vs infantry, I feel that needs toning down a tad. I also feel the construction time for both these units needs increasing quite a bit to help slow down the tank spam that inevitably ensues.

APC
Love it massive versatility and usefulness when packed with an infantry unit. I have no issues with the APC and its roll.

Flame Tank
Cool concept but badly flawed, again lack of infantry being used limits this tank a lot, if infantry were a desirable option in the game then we might se e more of these guys around. Its other problem is that it has to get damn close to use its weapon as well which really does do pittance damage to other vehicles.
I would like to see this tank toughened up either armour or helath wise to allow it the edge it needs to close in. Also it should be an option as to shoot the Flame tank knowing that they are tough targets but could wipe out important structures if ignored.

Stealth Tank
Love this tank, its one of my faves. No issues with it as it actually has weaknesses of short range and not very tough. Excellent for sneaking into bases to mess up infrastructure or as an invisible AA unit. Its not really overpowering and you can't spam it and expect a win.

Juggernaut
GDI's artillery unit. It is unfortunately a bit on the weak side. Also to use its full potential you need a sniper unit to be able to use its bombard ability. Standard range needs upping a bit, it should be able to sit well behind the main force and fire making it hard for enemy units to get to it. Added to that it does need a slight damage upgrade.

Beam Cannon
I like these guys, they do have LOS issues unfortunately which can cause them to move into range of enemy guns as they fire a straight beam instead of lobbing shells like most arty units. That aside the only thing these guys need is a slight range like the juggernaut. The beam bounce is a neat idea but I find it a bit clumsy to be of much use, no idea on how to fix that issue tho.

Mammoth Tank
God where do I start. In all seriousness this tank has no real weaknesses especially when it gets the rail gun upgrade and its supremely cheap as well for what it does. As mentioned with preds rail guns shouldn't be raping infantry, if you want a mammoth to be effective vs infantry back it up with another unit or an infantry screen. Even fanatic have a hard time getting at rail mammys. Aside from the rail gun issue mammoths are waaaay to cheap and build to quickly for what they do. Either reduce their damage OR increase cost and build time.

Avatar
Cool concept, poor implementation. For cost and build time I would expect one of these to rival a mammoth straight off the bat, such is not the case. While it does have a good range on it this is not normally sufficient to help it win out. Steal tech ability just ends up increasing the costs further. To make the Avatar the most effective unit it can be requires you to build and sacrifice 4 additional units taking the cost of a single avatar unit will over the 5k mark.
While I can see its more of a mix and match show making you able to customize your avatars some things are pointless such as the attack bike which would be better used to detect steal and serve as AA for the avatar.
Stealth and flamer upgrade can make for a potent base killer unit but you have still spend over 4k on a unit only good for 1 thing added to which you have to take the additional time to build a second unit on top of the avatar so you will always face greater numbers as the opposing side isn't sacrificing units just to get a small upgrade
If the avatar got everything the unit it absorbs had I might consider it useful as it is in most situations your better off just trying to mass basic avatars.
TBH I feel the avatar should have the steal tech ability changed so you either get more from it or don't destroy the unit you get the tech from.
Either this or cheapen the cost of the avatar to take into account the cost of the additional units you will be sacrificing to it.

Air:
I'm not really going to delve in depth into the air units as by and large they do their jobs fairly well. The only thing I would like to comment on is the Orca. It does need a bit of a toughness increase given its slow rof and speed with the majority of AA weapons having tracking the Orca takes a hell of a beating. This generally means anyone with decent AA have nothing to fear from this unit. also its missiles do not track so it can and will miss moving targets unlike the Venom. Aside from that I feel the firehawk, venom and vertigo do just fine.


Economy
Way way way to fast. Some sort of limit needs placing on it. One of the simpler ways of reducing it is to place a cap on the amount of harvesters allowed per each refinery. I would say max two harvesters allowed should you have more harvesters allowed per refineries (eg you had 4 harvesters and 2 refiners and you sold one of your refineries) the excess harvesters will not continue to harvest tiberium until a new refinery is put up. This way it becomes a option to try go for a second refinery for more income early or get more early units/tech. As it stands its almost mandatory at the moment to pump out harvesters to get as fast an income as possible.

There is probably a lot more I'm missing here such as some of the commander powers being a touch under strength against vehicles (vapor bomb being giggle at by tanks anyone? ) but I will leave it alone for now.

[M2M]

well.. If you are so keen on balancing issues, why don't you try to balance the game yourself... poke eround with the ini files until you are satisfied... you can also try to look @ the latest podcast? on the official cnc3 website

I wish you good luck anyway

[Rolk]

I see so many flaws with your arguements, so lets view each and every one of them!


Infantry:
Make infantry more usable in the game. While tanks ability to run over infantry has been a mainstay in the series something needs to be done concerning infantries total uselessness in this game. There should be some sort of penalty for tanks just driving over infantry and anti tank infantry such as GDI rocket inf need buffing vs tanks. I will look at specific issues with each unit as I go through the factions.

What?? Why? Infantry have never been a main line of defence in any C&C game. Have you ever played another C&C?

Riflemen/Militant Squads:
Used to pretty much counter other infantry squads, currently totally useless as infantry barely gets used and a couple of anti inf tanks work out better anyway.
Riflemen are fodder supposed to soak up a valuable opening barrage in the initial conflict. unfortunately you can run them over with no penalty at all and they are pretty much ignored due to their rather bad dmg to anything except other infantry units.
Couple of ideas:
Running them over causes enemy tanks to slow down. Making a mix of riflemen and missile squads could be nasty to tanks with riflemen screening the missile squads they should have time to kill the tanks.
Researchable upgrade, usable ability that allows a rifleman squad to attach a bomb to a vehicle. while the bomb won't be insta kill it should take a fair chunk of health away possibly percentage based say a quarter to a third of the unit health, only usable on vehicles. On a cool down timer of say about 30 seconds to a minute. Makes it usable about once a battle and means tanks need to be cautious about going to run over the squad.

Whoa, again, tanks aren't anti-infantry in this game, tanks are anti-tank. Infantry that take down other infantry is awesome, I'm glad they go down vs a machine gun better, as it forces you to utilize more then one unit (ei; pred) vsing a decent opponent.

Missile/Militant Rocket Squads
Supposedly anti tank infantry unit, suffers from most of the same issue as the riflemen in that they are easily run over for no penalty. The other issue is that the damage they do to tanks is rather abysmal requiring you to have probably close to triple the cost of the tank to kill it in a one on one situation. Easiest solution I can see is to add a 3rd person to the squad upping the DPS just a notch. In my estimation 2 rocket squads should be able to take out 1 pred with the loss of one squad currently this isn't the case.

They can, you have to utilize the scatter function! CTRL + X!

Grenadier Squad
They do their job very well and its probably just due to lack of infantry that we don't really see these bad boys. One thing I would like seeing they are carrying big packs of grenades with them is they cause damage to whatever rolls them over when the grenades all detonate.

I do agree with this one though, that would be pretty cool.

Sniper Team
No particular issue with them although one refinement would be an ammo switch ability so your snipers can either damage infantry or tanks. The tank damage would not be as great so you would need say a 2-3 sniper teams to tank out the most basic tank in any appreciable time duration but it would mean that they are not totally useless once the infantry is dead.

I'm sorry, but when did snipers ever become anti-tank? Snipers are anti-infantry and are designed that way, how can a high powered rifle take out a tank? Hell I found it rather annoying in Genereals when you could shoot the pilot of the tank, that was bullcrap. Snipers = Anti-Infantry. Period.


Pitbull/Attack bike
Both these units sever pretty much the same role in the game, fast scout units with rockets that can hit ground and air with stealth detection. Both suffer from the same problems. Low dmg vs pretty much everything and flimsy as all hells. Their biggest issue from what I have seen is that they die fast to direct fire but have to get within firing range. Easy solution is to increase the range on these units so that they can out range most units actually making them usable hit and runners. Also up their sight range to make them useful spotters for artillery units as well.

Their purpose is to be a scout, fast, and very weak, what kind of balance is the fastest units in the game, as strong as a Pred / Scorp?? There is no, they are fine.


Raider Buggy
Most of the problems for this unit stems from the fact that it is primarily anti infantry with limited AA capabilities. Due to the lack of infantry use in the game it primary role makes it quite useless. Its emp coil ability can be a real fight turner but it shouldn't be restricted to just a one trick pony. Fix the infantry issues and suddenly it becomes more useful to have some of these in your force or even used to scout with attack bikes.

This is an anti-infantry vehicle, you want an AA vehicle, choose something with rockets.

Predator/Scorpion
I actually have no overwhelming issues with these two. The only thing I don't like is the rail gun upgrade for the Predator making it so powerful vs infantry, I feel that needs toning down a tad. I also feel the construction time for both these units needs increasing quite a bit to help slow down the tank spam that inevitably ensues.

I personally don't agree with you on this one, Rail Gun - well use this as an insentive to move on your opponents base more, don't let him get the $7000 needed for the tech centre and the upgrade. Its quite a simple responce.

Flame Tank
Cool concept but badly flawed, again lack of infantry being used limits this tank a lot, if infantry were a desirable option in the game then we might se e more of these guys around. Its other problem is that it has to get damn close to use its weapon as well which really does do pittance damage to other vehicles.
I would like to see this tank toughened up either armour or helath wise to allow it the edge it needs to close in. Also it should be an option as to shoot the Flame tank knowing that they are tough targets but could wipe out important structures if ignored.

Once again its an Anti-Infantry vehicle, great for clearing those annoying garrisoned buildings, however I don't think you should even throw this at tanks, and the question is, why are you??

Stealth Tank
Love this tank, its one of my faves. No issues with it as it actually has weaknesses of short range and not very tough. Excellent for sneaking into bases to mess up infrastructure or as an invisible AA unit. Its not really overpowering and you can't spam it and expect a win.

This one really riled me up. Weakness? Yeah! Thats the point of a strategy game! You cannot seriously have a vehicle that is stealth and have it strong, what the hell? If anything the vehicle is perfect.

Juggernaut
GDI's artillery unit. It is unfortunately a bit on the weak side. Also to use its full potential you need a sniper unit to be able to use its bombard ability. Standard range needs upping a bit, it should be able to sit well behind the main force and fire making it hard for enemy units to get to it. Added to that it does need a slight damage upgrade.

Once again, its not supposed to be strong, its the whole point, its a support unit, not a first line of offence.

Mammoth Tank
God where do I start. In all seriousness this tank has no real weaknesses especially when it gets the rail gun upgrade and its supremely cheap as well for what it does. As mentioned with preds rail guns shouldn't be raping infantry, if you want a mammoth to be effective vs infantry back it up with another unit or an infantry screen. Even fanatic have a hard time getting at rail mammys. Aside from the rail gun issue mammoths are waaaay to cheap and build to quickly for what they do. Either reduce their damage OR increase cost and build time.

Hmmm. If anything, aircraft are a week point for Mammoth tanks. You get either a few bombers onto these things, and bam, no worries, and by a few I mean, about 8. Don't bother with one or two, as you're going to loose them. Just remember a mammoth tank can only shoot at one object at one time, which means if you've targeted a ground unit, then the mammoth cannot shoot in the air at the aircraft above.

Economy
Way way way to fast. Some sort of limit needs placing on it. One of the simpler ways of reducing it is to place a cap on the amount of harvesters allowed per each refinery. I would say max two harvesters allowed should you have more harvesters allowed per refineries (eg you had 4 harvesters and 2 refiners and you sold one of your refineries) the excess harvesters will not continue to harvest tiberium until a new refinery is put up. This way it becomes a option to try go for a second refinery for more income early or get more early units/tech. As it stands its almost mandatory at the moment to pump out harvesters to get as fast an income as possible.

Whoa, fast? Destroy the enemies harvesters then. Whole reason is to criple your enemy.


I see your personal opinions on the above items, its not balance issues. Its how you want the game to be which is fine, but you can't call them balance issues.

[Daishi]

I agree with everything in the above post, way to go. But there's a few things.

What?? Why? Infantry have never been a main line of defence in any C&C game. Have you ever played another C&C?

Basic rocket infantry were the basis of virtually every possible USA strategy in Generals, and in ZH, most of GLA's as well.

Whoa, fast? Destroy the enemies harvesters then. Whole reason is to criple your enemy.

I don't know from experience, but people are saying on GR that harvester harrassment is too preventable, even as GDI, and teching up is inevitable between two good players. If those guys know what they're talking about, and GDI has too little trouble teching up, and you'll need a hell of an Airfield build to blunt a proper Mammoth spam without losing oodles of cash.

Although I don't see what the problem is with just harassing the enemy surveyors. Doesn't Nod have an advantage over GDI when trying to win the outposts early on?

Perhaps the "disadvantage" that Nod is at is apparently at is a result of a common lack of experience. Like America being much easier in Generals than China/GLA, making the low players refuse to play against them in the low ranks. This game took a while, I'm sure they had a few ideas in mind for stopping the Mammoth, which the community is yet to practice and perfect. I wouldn't be surprised if there were zero balance changes necessary.

[Rolk]

Sorry I should clarify, I do not class Generals as a C&C game. My own opinoin for another topic, just saying it.

[JBV3737]

well.. If you are so keen on balancing issues, why don't you try to balance the game yourself... poke eround with the ini files until you are satisfied... you can also try to look @ the latest podcast? on the official cnc3 website

I wish you good luck anyway

cnc3 uses XML.files not ini.files.


also about this post:

Sanguinius_nz, if you dont know the scrin yet then im guessing your some what new to the game. i suggest you come back redo your opinions after you now every tactic and ability each side has to offer, becuase i see it as balanced. you may think mamoths are insanly powerful, but really they arn't. i dont even find them hard to kill when im nod.

oh yea by the way. in late games; scrin will frikken own gdi or nod.
my opinion is this. Scrin suck in early games, GDI is good all the way through. Nod expands fast and is good in early games, but if used right can be effective in late games also.

[Annihlator :D]

What?? Why? Infantry have never been a main line of defense in any C&C game. Have you ever played another C&C?


I know RA2 isn't exactly a C&C game but massed conscripts or deployed GI's could destroy several tanks

[Lazzars]

in RA2 the infantry owned against tanks if used right, they could hold an area of a city for a long time, untill they brought up V3s or harriers

oh and if anyone is overpowered its the scrin (its not really that bad though their planetary assault carriers are way better than mammies when they have shields) though as with mammies the cost of the upgrade and the late tech of them make it expensive

[Derek]

Actually, the original poster was right on most of his points. Sorry Rolk, but you're wrong here.

What?? Why? Infantry have never been a main line of defence in any C&C game. Have you ever played another C&C?
But they shouldn't suck. Rocket infantry are virtually useless because tanks will run them over before they can do any damage. A few rocket infantry should be able to kill a tank before it can run them over, but in CNC3 they can't.

Whoa, again, tanks aren't anti-infantry in this game, tanks are anti-tank. Infantry that take down other infantry is awesome, I'm glad they go down vs a machine gun better, as it forces you to utilize more then one unit (ei; pred) vsing a decent opponent.
Tanks are pretty much the best anti-infantry in the game, its so easy to run them over that its not even funny. And once the railgun and laser upgrades have been completed, they can just kill them in one shot.

They can, you have to utilize the scatter function! CTRL + X!
Scatter won't help enough, the tank will still run them over first.

I'm sorry, but when did snipers ever become anti-tank? Snipers are anti-infantry and are designed that way, how can a high powered rifle take out a tank? Hell I found it rather annoying in Genereals when you could shoot the pilot of the tank, that was bullcrap. Snipers = Anti-Infantry. Period.
He was suggesting an additional ability for the snipers. Still, snipers would be fine as they are if infantry were actually viable in the first place.

Their purpose is to be a scout, fast, and very weak, what kind of balance is the fastest units in the game, as strong as a Pred / Scorp?? There is no, they are fine.
They don't have to be strong, they have to be useful. They do pathetic damage to everything, what good is speed if you can't do any damage at all. They should be able to harass harvesters, and then run away before tanks can arrive, and then repeat, but their damage is so low that this will only work if you have around ten pitbulls, and by that time its not worth it.

This is an anti-infantry vehicle, you want an AA vehicle, choose something with rockets.
All of Nods AA vehicle are lightly armored, aircraft kill them faster than they can kill aircraft, thats not right when they are supposed to be AA units.

I personally don't agree with you on this one, Rail Gun - well use this as an insentive to move on your opponents base more, don't let him get the $7000 needed for the tech centre and the upgrade. Its quite a simple responce.
You can't stop someone from getting railguns, you might be able to delay them but they will get the upgrade if you don't completely destroy them first.

Once again, its not supposed to be strong, its the whole point, its a support unit, not a first line of offence.
But whats the point of an artillery unit if it doesn't really have long range or exceptional power? You're better off building a Mammoth.

Hmmm. If anything, aircraft are a week point for Mammoth tanks. You get either a few bombers onto these things, and bam, no worries, and by a few I mean, about 8. Don't bother with one or two, as you're going to loose them. Just remember a mammoth tank can only shoot at one object at one time, which means if you've targeted a ground unit, then the mammoth cannot shoot in the air at the aircraft above.
Aircraft are hardly a weak point, Mammoths are actually GDI's best mobil AA unit. Aircraft are just the only things that Mammoths don't kill in one shot.

Whoa, fast? Destroy the enemies harvesters then. Whole reason is to criple your enemy.
You completely missed again. You can't just arbitrarily destroy harvesters when you think your opponent has too much money. The fact of the matter is that the resource flow in this game completely blows away that of any other CNC game, so units don't really matter, because you can easily replace them.

[Zardac the Great]

I will note that I generally have massive ammounts of money, and I rarely have many harvesters.

[Rolk]

Valid points Derek, however, I still have more valid points to counter them, will post tonight when I have more time (12 hours time).

[SgtRicko]

For the most part, the game seems really well balanced to me, except for the Nod fanatics, who in my opinion move WAAAY too fast to be countered effectively. Hell, even a Mammoth would be in grave danger from just two groups of fanatics trying to flank it!

[Daishi]

SniperAPCs or even shotleading GrenAPCs = gg fanatics

[Volken45]

Sorry I should clarify, I do not class Generals as a C&C game. My own opinoin for another topic, just saying it.


EVERYONE says this I DONT CARE WHAT YOU THINK generals and Zerohour are Command and Conquer regardless E.A. bought the rights to the game from westwood and made Gens Therefor it is CnC Regardless of what ppl think so stop being stupid

[Apolo]

It's not being stupid it is his own opinion "My own opinoin for another topic" as said by Rolk. Your opinion of Generals/Zero Hour being a Comand & Conqure game is also your OWN opinion, but im afraid im going to have to side with Rolk on this one Generals/Zero hour is not a true Comand & Conqure game.
(In my opinion);)

"Therefor it is CnC Regardless of what ppl think so stop being stupid"
Umm people can think what they want if they think its not a Comand & Conqure game let them think that, perhaps this shows that you are the odd one out in this disscussion of 'Is Generals/ Zero Hour a true comand & conqure game'.

(Sorry for the rest of you people reading this thread I went a bit off topic)

[Avapodnaught]

Lets face it in all seriousness C&C3 has some serious balance issues. Mammoths the one stop shop that makes almost every other GDI unit a waste of time to build. The avatar not only do you have to build it (at greater cost than the mammoth) but then you have to destroy 4 of your units to get it fully upgraded and it will still fall over to a railgun mammoth. Scrin are closer to being balanced than the other 2 races in the game funnily enough as their infantry is not totally useless and there don't appear to be any really mass spammable units that you can just pump out to win the fight for you or that could be my inexperience with scrin talking. Infantry that is totally pointless aside from the super specialists the incessant tank spam. The list goes on.

So lets look at the various sides and what can be done about it (BTW not touching on scrin, they seem fairly well balanced on the whole of things but I lack much experience vs them to be able to take a good look at them)

Infantry:
Make infantry more usable in the game. While tanks ability to run over infantry has been a mainstay in the series something needs to be done concerning infantries total uselessness in this game. There should be some sort of penalty for tanks just driving over infantry and anti tank infantry such as GDI rocket inf need buffing vs tanks. I will look at specific issues with each unit as I go through the factions.

Riflemen/Militant Squads:
Used to pretty much counter other infantry squads, currently totally useless as infantry barely gets used and a couple of anti inf tanks work out better anyway.
Riflemen are fodder supposed to soak up a valuable opening barrage in the initial conflict. unfortunately you can run them over with no penalty at all and they are pretty much ignored due to their rather bad dmg to anything except other infantry units.
Couple of ideas:
Running them over causes enemy tanks to slow down. Making a mix of riflemen and missile squads could be nasty to tanks with riflemen screening the missile squads they should have time to kill the tanks.
Researchable upgrade, usable ability that allows a rifleman squad to attach a bomb to a vehicle. while the bomb won't be insta kill it should take a fair chunk of health away possibly percentage based say a quarter to a third of the unit health, only usable on vehicles. On a cool down timer of say about 30 seconds to a minute. Makes it usable about once a battle and means tanks need to be cautious about going to run over the squad.

Missile/Militant Rocket Squads
Supposedly anti tank infantry unit, suffers from most of the same issue as the riflemen in that they are easily run over for no penalty. The other issue is that the damage they do to tanks is rather abysmal requiring you to have probably close to triple the cost of the tank to kill it in a one on one situation. Easiest solution I can see is to add a 3rd person to the squad upping the DPS just a notch. In my estimation 2 rocket squads should be able to take out 1 pred with the loss of one squad currently this isn't the case.

Engineers/Saboteurs
No issues in general with these guys fit their roll just fine, probably as they are not really an offensive unit in that they tote around weapons and shoot stuff :P

Grenadier Squad
They do their job very well and its probably just due to lack of infantry that we don't really see these bad boys. One thing I would like seeing they are carrying big packs of grenades with them is they cause damage to whatever rolls them over when the grenades all detonate.

Black Hand
Like grenadiers they do their jobs well but due to a lack of infantry (also due to a lack of garrison able structures on some maps) they tend to fall short. Same thing as with Grenadiers they should go boom when run over seeing they are wearing big tanks of explosive fuel on their backs and all :D

Sniper Team
No particular issue with them although one refinement would be an ammo switch ability so your snipers can either damage infantry or tanks. The tank damage would not be as great so you would need say a 2-3 sniper teams to tank out the most basic tank in any appreciable time duration but it would mean that they are not totally useless once the infantry is dead

Fantaics
Actually no problems with these guys they work well in the hands of someone who knows how to use em.

Commando
No issues with the commando for either Nod or GDI. Fulfills its roll well as anti inf and structure killer.

Zone Troopers
They are a great unit able to take on tanks and infantry but vulnerable to air with their jump pack ability I have no issues with these guys.

Shadow Teams
Great little units that do what they were designed to do, no issues with this unit.

Vehicles:
One of the biggest problems with the game is that it focuses completely on the tanks and even within that field certain tanks just don't get used at all.

Pitbull/Attack bike
Both these units sever pretty much the same role in the game, fast scout units with rockets that can hit ground and air with stealth detection. Both suffer from the same problems. Low dmg vs pretty much everything and flimsy as all hells. Their biggest issue from what I have seen is that they die fast to direct fire but have to get within firing range. Easy solution is to increase the range on these units so that they can out range most units actually making them usable hit and runners. Also up their sight range to make them useful spotters for artillery units as well.

Raider Buggy
Most of the problems for this unit stems from the fact that it is primarily anti infantry with limited AA capabilities. Due to the lack of infantry use in the game it primary role makes it quite useless. Its emp coil ability can be a real fight turner but it shouldn't be restricted to just a one trick pony. Fix the infantry issues and suddenly it becomes more useful to have some of these in your force or even used to scout with attack bikes.

Predator/Scorpion
I actually have no overwhelming issues with these two. The only thing I don't like is the rail gun upgrade for the Predator making it so powerful vs infantry, I feel that needs toning down a tad. I also feel the construction time for both these units needs increasing quite a bit to help slow down the tank spam that inevitably ensues.

APC
Love it massive versatility and usefulness when packed with an infantry unit. I have no issues with the APC and its roll.

Flame Tank
Cool concept but badly flawed, again lack of infantry being used limits this tank a lot, if infantry were a desirable option in the game then we might se e more of these guys around. Its other problem is that it has to get damn close to use its weapon as well which really does do pittance damage to other vehicles.
I would like to see this tank toughened up either armour or helath wise to allow it the edge it needs to close in. Also it should be an option as to shoot the Flame tank knowing that they are tough targets but could wipe out important structures if ignored.

Stealth Tank
Love this tank, its one of my faves. No issues with it as it actually has weaknesses of short range and not very tough. Excellent for sneaking into bases to mess up infrastructure or as an invisible AA unit. Its not really overpowering and you can't spam it and expect a win.

Juggernaut
GDI's artillery unit. It is unfortunately a bit on the weak side. Also to use its full potential you need a sniper unit to be able to use its bombard ability. Standard range needs upping a bit, it should be able to sit well behind the main force and fire making it hard for enemy units to get to it. Added to that it does need a slight damage upgrade.

Beam Cannon
I like these guys, they do have LOS issues unfortunately which can cause them to move into range of enemy guns as they fire a straight beam instead of lobbing shells like most arty units. That aside the only thing these guys need is a slight range like the juggernaut. The beam bounce is a neat idea but I find it a bit clumsy to be of much use, no idea on how to fix that issue tho.

Mammoth Tank
God where do I start. In all seriousness this tank has no real weaknesses especially when it gets the rail gun upgrade and its supremely cheap as well for what it does. As mentioned with preds rail guns shouldn't be raping infantry, if you want a mammoth to be effective vs infantry back it up with another unit or an infantry screen. Even fanatic have a hard time getting at rail mammys. Aside from the rail gun issue mammoths are waaaay to cheap and build to quickly for what they do. Either reduce their damage OR increase cost and build time.

Avatar
Cool concept, poor implementation. For cost and build time I would expect one of these to rival a mammoth straight off the bat, such is not the case. While it does have a good range on it this is not normally sufficient to help it win out. Steal tech ability just ends up increasing the costs further. To make the Avatar the most effective unit it can be requires you to build and sacrifice 4 additional units taking the cost of a single avatar unit will over the 5k mark.
While I can see its more of a mix and match show making you able to customize your avatars some things are pointless such as the attack bike which would be better used to detect steal and serve as AA for the avatar.
Stealth and flamer upgrade can make for a potent base killer unit but you have still spend over 4k on a unit only good for 1 thing added to which you have to take the additional time to build a second unit on top of the avatar so you will always face greater numbers as the opposing side isn't sacrificing units just to get a small upgrade
If the avatar got everything the unit it absorbs had I might consider it useful as it is in most situations your better off just trying to mass basic avatars.
TBH I feel the avatar should have the steal tech ability changed so you either get more from it or don't destroy the unit you get the tech from.
Either this or cheapen the cost of the avatar to take into account the cost of the additional units you will be sacrificing to it.

Air:
I'm not really going to delve in depth into the air units as by and large they do their jobs fairly well. The only thing I would like to comment on is the Orca. It does need a bit of a toughness increase given its slow rof and speed with the majority of AA weapons having tracking the Orca takes a hell of a beating. This generally means anyone with decent AA have nothing to fear from this unit. also its missiles do not track so it can and will miss moving targets unlike the Venom. Aside from that I feel the firehawk, venom and vertigo do just fine.


Economy
Way way way to fast. Some sort of limit needs placing on it. One of the simpler ways of reducing it is to place a cap on the amount of harvesters allowed per each refinery. I would say max two harvesters allowed should you have more harvesters allowed per refineries (eg you had 4 harvesters and 2 refiners and you sold one of your refineries) the excess harvesters will not continue to harvest tiberium until a new refinery is put up. This way it becomes a option to try go for a second refinery for more income early or get more early units/tech. As it stands its almost mandatory at the moment to pump out harvesters to get as fast an income as possible.

There is probably a lot more I'm missing here such as some of the commander powers being a touch under strength against vehicles (vapor bomb being giggle at by tanks anyone? ) but I will leave it alone for now.

THE GREAT (and humble......) AVAPODNAUGHT CRACKS HIS CNC3 FINGERS TO EXPLOIT HIS CNC3 KNOWLEDGE!!!!!!

First off, the avatar is cheaper than the Mammoth tank, u must not be updating your software, and the avatar is pretty well made, have u ever seen the enemy sneak in a stealthed flame avie? (nub question, just use flamers :p), but avies cost only 2200, and mammoths now only 2500, or somewhat, avies are recapturable, and the pure ownage with rocket men, and some units to take out infantry (commando, many shadows, avies for buzzers, and even flame infantry) and like rolk said, I didn't know he had cnc3, but don't let the bastard tech up, ur nod, and u have the stealthy upper hand (no engis, just stealth flamas!!!)

Any rifle infantry is not worthless, they are meant for one purpose, early control of the map, helping engis capture spikes, and so on, even mixing with your own forces so enemy is attacking them, instead of ur avies (nod rocks heck yeah!!!) Running over rifle men is no biggy, because if u spammed enough of them they will take out a tank, but then the enemy will build anti infantry (oh i get it, then spam tanks, I need to try that on my nub account, naw, they don't need penalties, they have rifles, weak, but not explosive)

ROCKET MEN ARE THE BOMB!!!! They don't need penalties, they are the penalty, early defense, they r useful all the time, it is why nod has some of the best infantry tactics when fully upgraded, and with rifle men, I like ur idea for squish tho.... but rocket men always go with tanks, always good, always will be, just slow thats all....

Grenadiers clear buildings, and r a surprise to rocket men holders when the grenades fly out of apcs, that is about it, but grenade apcs don't kill buildings as fast as rocket apcs....not a tank against usage, explosive grenadiers is realistic tho, but still not useful enough for grendaiers... and blackl hand, those guys are almost invulnerable (not to commandos, snipers, and buzzers, and venoms, but that about it!!!), so they can do great damage if they dont' already have them, and they stop buzzers fast...

Attack bikes don't kill infatry fast because of cheapness, saying, u need more than one jackass, and they actually one of the best things armored against a devy warship, won't die to it, but the tripods below... emp upgrade is not a one trick thing, but the micro could slow u down getting them in, and can be deadly if u get ur own units... dont over micro, but it is usefull (get more of them)

Um, u r nub when u bring up too many flawed issues, saying units are flawed, flame tanks are damn useful, they mow down rocket men (need more than one, because one will die against strong force), and they also own buildings in a rush, or in a later game sneak attack upon the tech center, winning u the game if ur good...

Stealth tanks, sneak attack, run over many infantry, maybe zone troopers... and own air craft to the full percent.... no disagreeing with rolk, its a damn useful tank...

Bombardment, lmao, lol, omg, who uses the juggernaut bombard ability? its the perfect unit to go along with a base walk, defend areas, prevent enemy basewalk,and is recapturable, crushes tanks, and even owns mammoths in groups (can't get there, they will die, unless upgraded and coming all angles...) juggernauts are the perfect gdi artillery, one of teh best and most used I have ever seen...

Beam cannons help nod base walk, and even upgrade obelisks much like teslas to a coil, and they even take out buildings in groups well, infantry killers (dont' use them as teh only thing against them, just good for one or two groups, when they are in groups), ranged, and the bounce ability eh, I woudn't use it, unless u make a team tactic where ur freind can protect u...

Mammoths weakness, assembly line stop, no railguns, mass rocket men finish, fanatics, emp buggies too fast for them, zone troopers, bombers, air, orcas, towers, disentigrators, basically without rails, it has not good defense against infantry mass, and will also be destroyed by tripods getting close, turnign them off with ability, more than I can think of for many other units....

Avatars, don't upgrade them, they are stand alone with rocket men (but for scrin, a flamer upgrade or a flamer nearby would be nice for disentigrators, and rushing buzzers and shock troopers, building ownage... etc), stealth avies own harvies, Avies are very good units because they are recapturable, and even kill off juggies (just walk up to them, juggies have to back off when they get close), avies crush things, avies have good defense against weak infantry always, and they are pretty powerful when the enemy is barely warding off attacks (have shadows kill their engis, and keep moving ur base up the line, if u have to worry about losign because enemy captures tehm, u rn't in the game well enough)

Orcas, lmao again, they won't get shot down at first if the enemy has no air defense :hyper:
And they do there job several times, and probably if u get four of them and enemy is a bit thin, get their harvies, that is about how many it takes to get one, and u should get most of them back, tehy is pretty good

Cnc is very versitile, the factions are versitile, what do u want? if u learn the game well, u will be versatile, and u will win, that is what is all about, using different tactics, learnign, and becoming the best commander there is, people like u make me wonder what level fan u r, I don't think it is anywhere near me tho ;)

[Chev]

THE GREAT AVAPODNAUGHT CRACKS HIS CNC3 FINGERS TO EXPLOIT HIS CNC3 KNOWLEDGE!!!!!!
.................
Cnc is very versitile, the factions are versitile, what do u want? if u learn the game well, u will be versatile, and u will win, that is what is all about, using different tactics, learnign, and becoming the best commander there is, people like u make me wonder what level fan u r, I don't think it is anywhere near me tho ;)

I gues all this info is allready known by most, what's missing is the experiance (inclusing my own :lol:)

Experiance to know how many of x unit it takes to kill unit Y.
Knowing what priorities to certain units or buildings and the best way to do so.
Knowning what the best place is to capture in a map to ensure victory.
And so on :D

The more you play the more you learn. The more you learn the more you win.

But i gues this is off topic.
Balance in the game will (and should) be tweaked by EA a little in the next few months and things will be ok.

[Avapodnaught]

I gues all this info is allready known by most, what's missing is the experiance (inclusing my own :lol:)

Experiance to know how many of x unit it takes to kill unit Y.
Knowing what priorities to certain units or buildings and the best way to do so.
Knowning what the best place is to capture in a map to ensure victory.
And so on :D

The more you play the more you learn. The more you learn the more you win.

But i gues this is off topic.
Balance in the game will (and should) be tweaked by EA a little in the next few months and things will be ok.
true, true, but also, not only knowing that, but u need to know cost issues








Why did we bump this again?:wtf:

[Quadhelix]

THE GREAT AVAPODNAUGHT CRACKS HIS CNC3 FINGERS TO EXPLOIT HIS CNC3 KNOWLEDGE!!!!!! ...and humble too.


First off, the avatar is cheaper than the Mammoth tank, u must not be updating your software Actually, the post that you quoted was written nearly two months before Patch 1.05 came out, and the Avatar cost $3000 until Patch 1.05. Please check your facts before insulting others.


but avies cost only 2200, and mammoths now only 2500, or somewhat See above.


avies are recapturable That is not necessarily advantageous to you.


and like rolk said, I didn't know he had cnc3, but don't let the bastard tech up, ur nod, and u have the stealthy upper hand (no engis, just stealth flamas!!!) Unless you beat him first, he's probably going to tech up.


even mixing with your own forces so enemy is attacking them, instead of ur avies Except that if your enemy is even halfway smart, he's going to order his forces to ignore your Riflemen and focus fire on the Mammoths and Avatars; you are describing a meat-shield and meat-shields work only if they are a threat comparable to the unit that they are taking damage to protect.


Running over rifle men is no biggy, because if u spammed enough of them they will take out a tank, but then the enemy will build anti infantry (oh i get it, then spam tanks, I need to try that on my nub account, naw, they don't need penalties, they have rifles, weak, but not explosive) So if I spend $5000 on Riflemen, they just might be able to destroy a $800 tank before being made into road kill? The point that Sanguinius_nz was making is that there should be some penalty for running over infantrymen so that, for example, a group of riflemen can slow down a group of tanks, giving the Missile Squads behind them time to do some damage.


ROCKET MEN ARE THE BOMB!!!! They don't need penalties, they are the penalty, early defense, they r useful all the time, it is why nod has some of the best infantry tactics when fully upgraded, and with rifle men, I like ur idea for squish tho.... but rocket men always go with tanks, always good, always will be, just slow thats all.... Of course, Rocket Men are not helped by the fact that tanks can run over a large group of them without even slowing down.


Attack bikes don't kill infatry fast because of cheapness, saying, u need more than one jackass, and they actually one of the best things armored against a devy warship, won't die to it, but the tripods below... emp upgrade is not a one trick thing, but the micro could slow u down getting them in, and can be deadly if u get ur own units... dont over micro, but it is usefull (get more of them) He has no complaints about the Raider Buggy's ability to kill infantry, other than the complaint the Anti-Infantry units are nearly worthless because infantry themselves are nearly worthless. You have insulted this person several time over your own misunderstandings of his post. As for, "emp upgrade is not a one trick thing," what he was saying is that the Raider Buggy is a "one trick pony" because its only useful ability is the EMP Coils.


Um, u r nub when u bring up too many flawed issues, saying units are flawed, flame tanks are damn useful, they mow down rocket men (need more than one, because one will die against strong force), and they also own buildings in a rush, or in a later game sneak attack upon the tech center, winning u the game if ur good... His point is that since infantry, at least infantry pre-1.05, when his post was written, are worthless, any unit dedicated solely to eliminating infantry is also worthless. Be honest Avapodnaught, if your enemy gone straight to a War Factory, skipping his Barrack/Hand of Nod, would you honestly build any Flame Tanks?


Stealth tanks, sneak attack, run over many infantry, maybe zone troopers... and own air craft to the full percent.... no disagreeing with rolk, its a damn useful tank... IIRC, Zone Troopers cannot be run over. I could be wrong on this. Besides, he was saying that he likes the Stealth Tank.


Beam cannons help nod base walk, and even upgrade obelisks much like teslas to a coil, and they even take out buildings in groups well, infantry killers (dont' use them as teh only thing against them, just good for one or two groups, when they are in groups), ranged, and the bounce ability eh, I woudn't use it, unless u make a team tactic where ur freind can protect u... If the only use that a unit has is to make a base defense stronger, odds are that it is time to rethink that unit. Also, Sanguinius_nz makes a valid point about the Beam Cannon's firing behavior: it is effectively an artillery unit, so why is it wandering within range of non-artillery enemies. He is not complaining that Beam Cannon are weak or useless, only that the have flaws that prevent them from fulfilling their intended function.


Mammoths weakness, assembly line stop, no railguns, mass rocket men finish, fanatics, emp buggies too fast for them, zone troopers, bombers, air, orcas, towers, disentigrators, basically without rails, it has not good defense against infantry mass, and will also be destroyed by tripods getting close, turnign them off with ability, more than I can think of for many other units.... The odds of a Player going any major length of time with a Tech Center but without researching the Railguns upgrade is pretty slim and therefore a large part of you argument is pointless.


Avatars, don't upgrade them, they are stand alone with rocket men (but for scrin, a flamer upgrade or a flamer nearby would be nice for disentigrators, and rushing buzzers and shock troopers, building ownage... etc), stealth avies own harvies, Avies are very good units because they are recapturable, and even kill off juggies (just walk up to them, juggies have to back off when they get close), avies crush things, avies have good defense against weak infantry always, and they are pretty powerful when the enemy is barely warding off attacks (have shadows kill their engis, and keep moving ur base up the line, if u have to worry about losign because enemy captures tehm, u rn't in the game well enough) Obviously, EA agreed with him or they wouldn't have given the Avatar a 27% cost reduction in Patch 1.05.


Orcas, lmao again, they won't get shot down at first if the enemy has no air defense :hyper: Yes, and your tanks can march right into the enemy base if he decides to build nothing but Power Plants. Neither one is likely to happen against a good player.


And they do there job several times, and probably if u get four of them and enemy is a bit thin, get their harvies, that is about how many it takes to get one, and u should get most of them back, tehy is pretty good This will work once, maybe twice, before the enemy has so many Attack Bikes and Stealth Tanks and SAM Sites around their Tiberium fields that a Generals Aurora couldn't get through, let alone a flight of Orcas.

[Avapodnaught]

...and humble too.


Actually, the post that you quoted was written nearly two months before Patch 1.05 came out, and the Avatar cost $3000 until Patch 1.05. Please check your facts before insulting others.


That is not necessarily advantageous to you.


Unless you beat him first, he's probably going to tech up.


Except that if your enemy is even halfway smart, he's going to order his forces to ignore your Riflemen and focus fire on the Mammoths and Avatars; you are describing a meat-shield and meat-shields work only if they are a threat comparable to the unit that they are taking damage to protect.


So if I spend $5000 on Riflemen, they just might be able to destroy a $800 tank before being made into road kill? The point that Sanguinius_nz was making is that there should be some penalty for running over infantrymen so that, for example, a group of riflemen can slow down a group of tanks, giving the Missile Squads behind them time to do some damage.


Of course, Rocket Men are not helped by the fact that tanks can run over a large group of them without even slowing down.


He has no complaints about the Raider Buggy's ability to kill infantry, other than the complaint the Anti-Infantry units are nearly worthless because infantry themselves are nearly worthless. You have insulted this person several time over your own misunderstandings of his post. As for, "emp upgrade is not a one trick thing," what he was saying is that the Raider Buggy is a "one trick pony" because its only useful ability is the EMP Coils.


His point is that since infantry, at least infantry pre-1.05, when his post was written, are worthless, any unit dedicated solely to eliminating infantry is also worthless. Be honest Avapodnaught, if your enemy gone straight to a War Factory, skipping his Barrack/Hand of Nod, would you honestly build any Flame Tanks?


IIRC, Zone Troopers cannot be run over. I could be wrong on this. Besides, he was saying that he likes the Stealth Tank.


If the only use that a unit has is to make a base defense stronger, odds are that it is time to rethink that unit. Also, Sanguinius_nz makes a valid point about the Beam Cannon's firing behavior: it is effectively an artillery unit, so why is it wandering within range of non-artillery enemies. He is not complaining that Beam Cannon are weak or useless, only that the have flaws that prevent them from fulfilling their intended function.


The odds of a Player going any major length of time with a Tech Center but without researching the Railguns upgrade is pretty slim and therefore a large part of you argument is pointless.


Obviously, EA agreed with him or they wouldn't have given the Avatar a 27% cost reduction in Patch 1.05.


Yes, and your tanks can march right into the enemy base if he decides to build nothing but Power Plants. Neither one is likely to happen against a good player.


This will work once, maybe twice, before the enemy has so many Attack Bikes and Stealth Tanks and SAM Sites around their Tiberium fields that a Generals Aurora couldn't get through, let alone a flight of Orcas.
Of course, I had not noticed that the thread was bumped until afterwards, I apologize on that...

It depends on the type of player u r, if the enemy recaptures them and u still kill him, ur obviously good, of course the enemy will tech up, and if they tech up first, there is still a little delay before anything good will come out of it, like shadow rushign powers will hlep prevent that, stealth flamers kill it, most of gdis and scrins tech stuff won't come out for a while, cuz of their expense, and nod... It depends on the the type of player, because either u have a scorpion army with rocket men, effective and fast, fanatics ready, they are pretty good for the tech level they are, and they will own a mammy, did I say they were available earlier than the mammy? and when the first mamy rolls out, they usually will not have rails

Of cours they will aim at teh stuff they want dead, I know that, but a mammoth, finishing off one unit with one railgun, may fire before it is selected even as a group to fire at what u want, thoguth u knew that one

I agree with the rifle men slow down penalty

rocket men, alone they will be squished, but behind a column of tanks... the enemy cannot get to them :chin:,all it takes is some micro

Yet again, I say srry (rolls eyes), I tend to not skim like I used to when im tired....

I wonder... I don't think I played the game much non online with 1.05 or lower... It took awhile for me to get the game to work, I was still nub, and probably would have only built the flame tank to take out infantry... not buildings....

I never said anything about there being a problem with the cost reduction, it was just that things were good then, and now even better...

I was just stating this because it sounded like that he thoguth it was weak as a tank, zone troopers can be run over... but not by stealth tanks, but by walkers, and mammoths, and improved scorps...

Beam cannons r artillery, I stated that in my post, and it usually is when I first used the game without patching that I noticed that they worked well when I got them and attacked the renegade nods...

But the tiem that the mamoth doesn't have the upgrade is always a gateway of oppurtunity, then afterwards, only hard if they still have mammies, or preds...

Orcas can take out tanks fast... but of course, silly me, a war fac is built faster than both the radar and airport together.. which is why i'd have something else in the base.... I haven't had time to poke around my ideas with every faction, just nod most of the time...

Lol, orcas aren't late game as steatlh tanks... but the other units... if the enemy is worried about ur tanks, all the enemy will do is build air defenses, and tanks for ur tanks :wtf:
sigh...

[SgtRicko]

So if I spend $5000 on Riflemen, they just might be able to destroy a $800 tank before being made into road kill? The point that Sanguinius_nz was making is that there should be some penalty for running over infantrymen so that, for example, a group of riflemen can slow down a group of tanks, giving the Missile Squads behind them time to do some damage.


Well, at least running over vehicles (i.e. attack bikes, avvies stomping a harvie) will slow ya down...:|

[Avapodnaught]

Well, at least running over vehicles (i.e. attack bikes, avvies stomping a harvie) will slow ya down...:|
and it also unstealths ur avie f its stealthed..