Countering Scrin air rush (NOD)

[Sluf]

Just played a short game, Scrin vs NOD, where Scrin masses carriers in a hopeless attempt for a rush.

Countering a Scrin air rush is generally not hard, but Scrin lags building time, not resources, so if the Scrin get's a few carriers up without the opponent noticing, serveral attack waves can seem impossible to defend against, as (in my case NOD) uses more money countering them, than the carriers has cost to build.

My trick in this case, is to use Shadow Teams as backup, to prevent his resources, and hopefully destroy his airbases, to turn the tide.

This replay demonstrates this.

[Derek]

Just played a short game, Scrin vs NOD, where Scrin masses carriers in a hopeless attempt for a rush.
"Carrier Rush" is an oxymoron, Carriers are ultra-late game units, the last possible unit you can get as Scrin. GDI and Nod don't even have an equivalently late unit (their equivalent buildings are the Space Uplink and Chemical Weapons Factory, but these don't provide new units).

Scrin lags building time, not resources,
Wrong. The Scrin harvesters are giltched, so they harvest 20% slower than Nod and GDI.


All you need to kill Carriers though are laser Venoms, they will completely abbliterate all Scrin air units (except massed Stormriders, but Stormriders are hard to mass).

[JBV3737]

i agree with derek. venoms easly take out all air units in the game. lol

[M2M]

"Carrier Rush" is an oxymoron, Carriers are ultra-late game units, the last possible unit you can get as Scrin. GDI and Nod don't even have an equivalently late unit (their equivalent buildings are the Space Uplink and Chemical Weapons Factory, but these don't provide new units).


Wrong. The Scrin harvesters are giltched, so they harvest 20% slower than Nod and GDI.


All you need to kill Carriers though are laser Venoms, they will completely abbliterate all Scrin air units (except massed Stormriders, but Stormriders are hard to mass).

and as gdi versus scrin carriers you can just use a few firehawks to take 'm down. and one of your firehawks will get veterancy for it too

[gho$tface]

Yeah usually you can tell if they are teching up to carriers if they bunker up. Especially on smaller maps. This is where i think the tib chemical plant is essential for nod. Drop the catalsyt missle on the refinery(i love it when they have 2 next to each other:drool: ), and the vapor bomb on the defenses with some mines. Then go in from the front and the rear or flank. They really shouldn't have more than 2 carriers up by this time if the game has gone on this long. Right now I'm trying to figure out if a seed drop/catalyst missle combo would be worth it.:chin:

[Sluf]

Well, I see your point Ghostface, but teching up to Catalyst missile cannot be done before Scrin has enough carriers to wipe your entire base.

To "rush" catalyst missile would need a strat along these lines:

Expander $1500
Crane (obivousely, or you can't build fast enough.) 15 sec, $1500
Refinery/Powerplant (20 sec for refinery), $2500
Refinery/Powerplant (20 sec for refinery), $2500
WF/Powerplant or refinery (20 sec for WF), $2500/$4000
Operations Center/Power Plant (25 sec for OC), $2000
Tech Lab/Refinery (40 sec for TL), $6000
Chemical Plant! 30 sec, $3000
Presuming you use 1 second to deploy and build the next: 7 sec
============================================

Sums to a total of: 177 seconds (2 minutes 57 seconds), $20000/$21500.

Come to think of it, it should be possible. Thought, the catalyst missile is no super weapon, might be pointless.

Perhaps with MCV + 2 Cranes?

[Soviet779]

Thats hardly an air rush... Although i kinda had somone try that on me, they had carriers by the time i attacked with laser scorpions, a minute later i returned with the same scorpions and a bunch of venoms, eradicated those carriers and then his base.

[M2M]

Well, I see your point Ghostface, but teching up to Catalyst missile cannot be done before Scrin has enough carriers to wipe your entire base.

To "rush" catalyst missile would need a strat along these lines:

Expander $1500
Crane (obivousely, or you can't build fast enough.) 15 sec, $1500
Refinery/Powerplant (20 sec for refinery), $2500
Refinery/Powerplant (20 sec for refinery), $2500
WF/Powerplant or refinery (20 sec for WF), $2500/$4000
Operations Center/Power Plant (25 sec for OC), $2000
Tech Lab/Refinery (40 sec for TL), $6000
Chemical Plant! 30 sec, $3000
Presuming you use 1 second to deploy and build the next: 7 sec
============================================

Sums to a total of: 177 seconds (2 minutes 57 seconds), $20000/$21500.

Come to think of it, it should be possible. Thought, the catalyst missile is no super weapon, might be pointless.

Perhaps with MCV + 2 Cranes?

if I play scirmish with 40000 as starting dollars, I usually build 2 cranes, but then I cant click fast enough

there are always buildings waiting to be placed

and yes I should create some keyboardshortcuts, but I like to kick back so I can hmmmm with the left hand while mousing with the right one

[Star Wars Man]

Wrong. The Scrin harvesters are giltched, so they harvest 20% slower than Nod and GDI.

How does something become giltched? :p


On topic, generally what I do use Laser Venoms combined with Stealth Tanks that do the job nicely. However, be sure to target the carrier itself, not the fighters, due to the fact that once the carrier is destroyed, so are the fighters. Be sure target one at a time, so your firepower is focused on one target, dealing the most damage. Don't hesitate to pull back, and mass up more Venoms and Stealth Tanks.

[M2M]

How does something become giltched? :p


On topic, generally what I do use Laser Venoms combined with Stealth Tanks that do the job nicely. However, be sure to target the carrier itself, not the fighters, due to the fact that once the carrier is destroyed, so are the fighters. Be sure target one at a time, so your firepower is focused on one target, dealing the most damage. Don't hesitate to pull back, and mass up more Venoms and Stealth Tanks.

well... A decent defence might be 2 warships and one carrier, while the carrier uses its thundercloud capability

[Derek]

Well, I see your point Ghostface, but teching up to Catalyst missile cannot be done before Scrin has enough carriers to wipe your entire base.
Yes it can. The Chemical Plant and the Signal Transmitter (or whatever its called, the thing that allows the Mothership and Carriers to be built) are on the same tech level, so you can get them at the exact same time. However Scrin still needs to build the Carriers themsevles, while Nod can just fire the abilities as soon as the building is completed.

if I play scirmish with 40000 as starting dollars, I usually build 2 cranes, but then I cant click fast enough
If you're going to talk strategies then talking in terms of $10K starts, as that is the official rule.

How does something become giltched? :p
Glitched is an adjective meaning to have a glitch.

[Sluf]

Yes it can. The Chemical Plant and the Signal Transmitter (or whatever its called, the thing that allows the Mothership and Carriers to be built) are on the same tech level, so you can get them at the exact same time. However Scrin still needs to build the Carriers themsevles, while Nod can just fire the abilities as soon as the building is completed.


If you're going to talk strategies then talking in terms of $10K starts, as that is the official rule.


Glitched is an adjective meaning to have a glitch.

Thought, in order to use this strategy in an online game, one would need to know from the beginning that Scrin was teching up, so I can only imagine Scrin would get a headstart.

Apart from that, the whole Chemical Plant strategy sounds very ineffective. I'd rather tech up to Tech Lab, and build Stealth Tanks, which in my oppinion is more effective at countering an air 'rush' than venoms are, as Stealth tanks are better at taking buildings, and can surprise a carrier underneath it, instead of letting it fire alot of shots with it's long range.

[Derek]

Thought, in order to use this strategy in an online game, one would need to know from the beginning that Scrin was teching up, so I can only imagine Scrin would get a headstart.
Yeah, but Scrin will be entirely open to attack during this time, so Nod can easily harass them and slow them down. Actually, Nod should be able to kill them before they can even get a Technology Assimilator up if Scrin is trying to tech up that fast.

Apart from that, the whole Chemical Plant strategy sounds very ineffective. I'd rather tech up to Tech Lab, and build Stealth Tanks, which in my oppinion is more effective at countering an air 'rush' than venoms are, as Stealth tanks are better at taking buildings, and can surprise a carrier underneath it, instead of letting it fire alot of shots with it's long range.
The Chemical Plant isn't fantastic, but its still nice. And you clearly have never seen what 20 Laser Venoms can do (and they aren't hard to get either).

[gho$tface]

This does work for online play, $10k, no rules etc (although I do play 2v2's mostly). Like I said if they are bunkering they are teching up. Especially if you are rushing or attacking often. Then they know you are playing aggressively and they can't match you unitwise and will try to get later game units.
As far as the Chemical Plant, if your getting the laser upgrade for venoms might as well get the plant at the same time as they are both now available.

[Derek]

Yep. BTW Ghostface, now that I've got you added to my buddy list I'ld like to play you sometime. You were pretty decent at ZH but you were always playing no rush, which didn't help you get any better. I'ld like to see you get very good at CNC3.

[Borgster1]

Yep. BTW Ghostface, now that I've got you added to my buddy list I'ld like to play you sometime. You were pretty decent at ZH but you were always playing no rush, which didn't help you get any better. I'ld like to see you get very good at CNC3.


Huh! funny ghost and i have been gaming together for a few years now and I never play with any rules, well should not say never yes there is times where we seem to not be able to get a game and we do rules but usualy we dont play with rules.

Rules usualy end up being broken so why bother. Just kill kill kill...

[Derek]

I know he doesn't always pay with rules, but I've seen him playing no rush games in ZH more times then I would like. But thats beside the point, the point now is that I want to see Ghostface pull up his rank, it was kind of sagging last time I saw it ;)

[Star Wars Man]

Hey Derek, you wrote giltched instead of glitched. That's what I was poking fun at. :p

[gho$tface]

usually if I was playing no rush it was on custom maps in which I wasn't the host. Yeah my record sucks, been having crash probs if someone loses connection, and I get a loss, I think I have 11 dcs from this!:tantrum: Of course I'd say maybe a half of my losses are legit. But all excusses aside btw Derek sure I'll play you it'd be interesting.a game i just played.I think these guys weren't that good but i wasn't paying attention when I joined. This is with Chemical Plant.