Bad/Good BO?

[Sqwerlpunk]

These are the 2 BO's I most often use on TD, though I use the first much more because it gets a quicker techterr. Your thoughts? (GLA btw)

1st BO

1st worker -> SS -> AD -> (later) Tunnel near AD & Rax
2nd worker -> Rax (with the AD to box supplies) -> (later) Palace
3rd worker -> Mid-Tunnel
4th worker -> Flank Tunnel
5th worker -> (other) Flank Tunnel
6th worker -> (later) 2nd SS -> Tunnel near 2nd SS

2nd BO

1st worker -> Forward Rax (terrcars)
2nd worker -> SS -> AD -> (later) Tunnel near AD -> (even later) Palace
3rd worker -> Flank Tunnel
4th worker -> (other) Flank Tunnel
5th worker -> (later) 2nd SS -> Tunnel near 2nd SS

[Derek]

Both are common and perfectly acceptable BOs. GLA has a lot of options in the early game, and those are two common ones. The one thing I would say though is that your second supplies shouldn't be "later", you should get them as soon as your worker gets there. If you don't have enough money to build a supply center at that time, re-work your BO so that you do. Also, you didn't say it but I'm assuming you're selling you CC, as you always should.

[Sqwerlpunk]

alright, so I always sell the CC, seeing as it is useless to GLA after you get some workers out, and should i not build the tunnels immidiately so i have enough money for the second supply or should i not techterr immidiately? and what are some uncommon BOs then? oh, and how do you effectively box your supplies? I always seem to screw it up and have workers running everywhere and not doing an efficient job with the supplies

[drgNz~]

You won't have enough money to get tunnels on both flanks + middle at the start, so use tunnel mid + his secondary flank, then send a worker from your secondary up the flank as you're attacking the opposite flank and tunnel just before middle, then progress upwards/downards.

Never box your supplies against USAs, as ranger drop = goodbye economy. Place your supply so that you can fit about 4 - 6 workers in the space provided, then build whatever you prefer on either side of the gap (I wouldn't suggest a tunnel, but if you're going for map control then you shouldn't need to box anyway).

I prefer not to box, and I have about 6 - 8 workers going on my primary (including the ones earlier used for building).

[C4]

oh, and how do you effectively box your supplies? I always seem to screw it up and have workers running everywhere and not doing an efficient job with the supplies

Use your AD placed correctly (hold LMB to point direction) to shut one of the supply flanks and a rax (or just a tunnel, if toxin or playing vs anything but GLA. It can also save u from ranger drop) on the other. That's it! With practice u'll be boxing it as wished. Many replays with the GLA offer good examples of supply boxing.
Usually no perfect boxing is needed.

[drgNz~]

Eficko build in GLA mirrors ftw ;P

[Derek]

alright, so I always sell the CC, seeing as it is useless to GLA after you get some workers out, and should i not build the tunnels immidiately so i have enough money for the second supply or should i not techterr immidiately? and what are some uncommon BOs then? oh, and how do you effectively box your supplies? I always seem to screw it up and have workers running everywhere and not doing an efficient job with the supplies
If you don't have enough money then just look for something to skip out on (temporarily). You might get a couple less workers at your main supply initially so that you can build your secondary, and then build a few more later, or you might delay a flank tunnel like DRGNz said. You can delay your techterror, but don't delay terror cars, either do them ASAP or don't do them at all. If you're going forward rax then you can skip out on the rax at your base, or you can get a rax at your main but not forward (if you want to get cars doing this then send the terrorists through a tunnel to the middle). The best choice however is often just to delay the tunnel at your main supply, your vehicles have to move further to get to a tunnel but your main supply is rarely under threat itself that early in the game.

[Sqwerlpunk]

Alright, so I should not make my tunnels so i can get a 2nd supply? IMO leaves me kinda open in case my techterr is to fail... but thats hard to accomplish. So, speaking of techterrs, which should i aim for first? WF/AD or SC/SS? and noone has any ideas for alternate BOs? and as for boxing, i know how to turn the buildings, but the workers i build (6 for each total) always leave the box... and im not dumb, i dont box vs USA. Thx for all the help!

[Derek]

If they are leaving the box then loosen it up some, place your SD further from the supplies and don't place the boxing buildings as tightly on the sides. Workers sneaking out could also be a sign that you have too many workers on one supply, while the theoretical max is 7, its usually easier to get 5 or 6 and the difference isn't much. For the techterror, against USA always target the highest tech-level structure, thats Strat Center>WF>Supply Center. Against China either hit the WF or supplies, it doesn't make a huge difference but the supplies are more likely to be mined. You should be able to get a tunnel on each flank and the middle, so your supplies will be safe if you have good map awareness and you can delay your tunnels there. If you are going to skip out on your secondary flank tunnel (his primary flank) then you have to immediately get a tunnel on your secondary, so it doesn't really help that much. My GLA BO goes something like this:

(starting on top)
Que 5 workers
Worker 1>Mid barracks (terror cars)>Tunnel
Worker 2>Main supply (3)>boxing AD
Worker 3>Flank tunnel
Worker 4>Flank tunnel
Worker 5>Secondary supplies
Worker 6>Boxing tunnel at secondary

If I start at the bottom I flip the first and second workers. Get a boxing tunnel at the main using a worker that is harvesting, once its done send him back to harvesting. Have both the workers at the secondary start harvesting once they're done building. Eventually I get five workers at each supply. I can do the entire initial build without waiting for money, although you will need to wait before getting the main supply boxing tunnel and to get 5 workers at each, but you don't have to wait long.

[Sqwerlpunk]

thx, thats all i needed :)

[Daishi]

What I do generally in GLA mirrors is
1) Queue 3 workers
2) W1 - Supply Stash
3) W2 - forward tunnel
4) W3 - rax (toxin rebel or two terrorists, rally point is set to center map)
5) W4 - Supply Stash
6) Sell CC
7) W1 - Arms Dealer
8) W3 - tunnel for rax
9) W2 - tunnel on oil flank
10) W4 - Tunnel on supply flank
11) W1 - tunnel for AD
Then get some empty veteran technicals to worker hunt on the flanks, then redirect them to harass the economy. Quad/rpg to your heart's content with a tunnel spam. It's proven effective if I can act fast enough.

Technicals + 1-2 toxin rebels rocks on TD :D

[n3m3sis]

Hi noobs. This forum is still going strong? wow. I haven't been here for a year. Uniersitys internet sucks, it's like being behind a router and a firewall by just using their internet on a fresh machine. Sucks to be me. Hi Derek. Um yeah, just checking in, I don't have anything constructive to say. I read the first post and had to struggle to remember if those are good or not lol. Seem way to general, they're not bos they're entire game plans. Seems to me the dude is a pro poser or something. Build order is just the first few buildings that limit your options later in the game but give you advantages early on. If you've got more than 3 steps outlined in your bo you've gone too far. You have to remember that you're playing against a person. And that after about 2 steps your actions are going to have to heavily factor-in the unexpected actions of your opponent. gg.

[Daishi]

n3m3sis is back... :uhh:

Welcome! Yeah, the forum's going pretty strong, but it's like a third the speed over here now that C&C3 is out.

[SgtRicko]

Hi noobs. This forum is still going strong? wow. I haven't been here for a year. Uniersitys internet sucks, it's like being behind a router and a firewall by just using their internet on a fresh machine. Sucks to be me. Hi Derek. Um yeah, just checking in, I don't have anything constructive to say. I read the first post and had to struggle to remember if those are good or not lol. Seem way to general, they're not bos they're entire game plans. Seems to me the dude is a pro poser or something. Build order is just the first few buildings that limit your options later in the game but give you advantages early on. If you've got more than 3 steps outlined in your bo you've gone too far. You have to remember that you're playing against a person. And that after about 2 steps your actions are going to have to heavily factor-in the unexpected actions of your opponent. gg.



EVERYBODY RUN FOR YOUR F***ING LIVES!!!!:eek: HE'S GONNA KI- No, no, please, not me, I don-- AAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!

[drgNz~]

hi nemesis.

[Derek]

You of all people, n3m3sis, should know that GLA BOs involve a lot of "steps", but don't take long because you have a bunch of workers working simultaneously.

BTW, do you have CNC3?

[Zancloufer27]

It's not THAT many steps:
W1>Forward Rax>Forward Tunnel/Terror cars
W2>Pri Supply>5 workers
W3>Sec Supply>Tunnel at Sec/3 workers>AD
W4>Flank Tunnel
W5>Your Flank Tunnel
W6>Tunnel at Pri
You'll half to delay the AD, and tunnels at the Supplies, but that BO allows is good vs Random/NonGLA as IMO allows a lot of choice. I never follow a certain strat EVER vs a player. I just have a BO I follow to get me started.

[yurihomer]

wow, nemesis is back, yo man, are u on co-op right now or are u in school?

[CookieMonster]

Wow, never thought I'd see that name again. Welcome back. I don't post much but I'm lurching all the time.:shifty:

[Sqwerlpunk]

Dude, pro poser? I must be better at bs-ing tactics than i thought!

[n3m3sis]

Yeah I know GLA technically has many steps, but I mean, steps as in the amount of buildings the average worker made, also how far along in the tech tree you get. So just making a couple of tunnels a rax and 2 supply stashes, all with different workers, that's all the same step. Then the next steps are usually an ad and pushing the tunnels on flanks and middle. But what if he drops and now you have to make an ad somewhere else... or you feel that his base is weak so you maybe decide to aggressively push the tunnels on one flank. So I think you can plan the bo up to the first opportunity of being attacked. Or at least, create bos that are strong initially, and will do very good if they do attack you early, but then also plan for the evolution of the bo. So the best thing to do would be to include comments like "build this this and this, then if not attacked, expand this, or make more things here" Thats a much more accure way of going about it. But after a while it gets too crazy, you get bo trees that depend on the actions of your opponent. Then you stop making bos, you just think of random branches in the tree. like, if you have this bo in play at this phase, and your opponent is doing x, then the optimal thing for you to do is This. So really good people stop thinking in terms of bos and just go on instinct. So um yeah... that went off topic. Anyways bo conversations are usually for noobs, unless people specify vs which general they are playing, and even better vs which bo, tactic, and strategy he is using.

No I just finished co-op im back in school now. Back in the same residence with the bad internets :s. I can play 1 or 2 quickmatches before it stops connecting to anybody and I have to restart the game. Im going to make a complaint, maybe it will get fixed. I need my zh.

I have a pirated copy of c&c3. I would buy it if i knew i would be able to play online 100%. But because of this internet situation i just play single player sometimes. Mostly busy with school and I play my ds or psp between classes.

Oh lol Icame bac kto gamereplays.org after being gone for a year, and my warn is at 40% lol. I guess not saying anything is not good behavior...

[Sqwerlpunk]

That's basic. By the time I finish my BO there, I either get attacked, or get enough information to react to my enemy (techterr). I was asking if it gave me a strong start in case of attack ect. because I can freely admit that I am a newb and no where near as good as most of these people (which is why I was asking for help/opinion). Try it, you will prolly not be attacked until close to the completion of this BO in a standard online match (which is what I play) on TD.

[yurihomer]

cool, i am doing my co-op in waterloo now, for the university, for a prof actually.

[Derek]

Yeah I know GLA technically has many steps, but I mean, steps as in the amount of buildings the average worker made, also how far along in the tech tree you get. So just making a couple of tunnels a rax and 2 supply stashes, all with different workers, that's all the same step. Then the next steps are usually an ad and pushing the tunnels on flanks and middle. But what if he drops and now you have to make an ad somewhere else... or you feel that his base is weak so you maybe decide to aggressively push the tunnels on one flank. So I think you can plan the bo up to the first opportunity of being attacked. Or at least, create bos that are strong initially, and will do very good if they do attack you early, but then also plan for the evolution of the bo. So the best thing to do would be to include comments like "build this this and this, then if not attacked, expand this, or make more things here" Thats a much more accure way of going about it. But after a while it gets too crazy, you get bo trees that depend on the actions of your opponent. Then you stop making bos, you just think of random branches in the tree. like, if you have this bo in play at this phase, and your opponent is doing x, then the optimal thing for you to do is This. So really good people stop thinking in terms of bos and just go on instinct. So um yeah... that went off topic. Anyways bo conversations are usually for noobs, unless people specify vs which general they are playing, and even better vs which bo, tactic, and strategy he is using.
Well really thats just the difference between a good player and a great player. They both use the same BO, but the great player knows how to adapt if the situation changes unexpectedly.

[n3m3sis]

well thats not true, what I was saying is that you shouldn't blindly copy other peoples bos, and implement them without knowing their strength vs specific nations and their strategies. If you know what you're doing then when you make a bo you have to cater it to get the highest benefit from playing vs certain factions, and also built into it the ability for it to evolve efficiently to accommodate for any logical changes that may occur in your opponents strategy. Thus every position of every building, and every unit coming into play at every time interval has to be optimized, initially to the most likely strategy and build order of your opponent, and later in the game to your opponents unit/building type/count/position. Simply stating the initial build tells me that you really are just randomly making buildings and units without taking in to consideration your opponents probable initial build orders and strategies. If you knew the concepts behind building an airtight build order you wouldn't need to ask weather its a good one, because everything in a build order should be calculated. If you aren't finding this to be true then you aren't playing vs professional players who know enough to exploit the weaknesses in your build and strat, because strategy is closely related to the build.

ps: w00t almost 2000 posts

[Sqwerlpunk]

Mmm, now i get where you are coming from. I guess that I have not gotten to the point or skill level where I customize every BO towards the armies and players I am going up against. However, I was just asking if this is a good basic BO for someone just starting to get more avanced strats down, i.e. a newb (me), not if it was a good BO for say, AFG. I concede though, you win, you are better at strategy than me, lol. Btw, thx for the advice, I am going to try to get to your level of majesty.

[drgNz~]

come play ZH tourney nemesis ?

[n3m3sis]

read what i wrote, im on residence internet, i can SOMEtimes get a single game in before it disconnects from online, not from the people im playing, completely from online. it wont find quick match, buddy's list, or connect to any lobby.

PS:WOOOO 2000 posts

[Derek]

Well if you ever do get the chance to play online with a good connection I'll gladly play you in either ZH or CNC3.

[Daishi]

Me too! Although I don't stand a chance...

[SgtRicko]

Well if you ever do get the chance to play online with a good connection I'll gladly play you in either ZH or CNC3.

And when you do, be sure to send the replay our way, eh?;)