When to build radar?

[JJFZ3000]

I read on the STRIKE TEAM http://strike-team.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=59475 build order that they would build a war factory and 2 refineries before building a radar.. why? and what would you do?

[Statalyzer]

There is no one good answer to this. It depends on which country you are and which map you're playing, and also on what side your enemy is and what strategy you want to use against him.

[truefeel]

I read on the STRIKE TEAM http://strike-team.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=59475 build order that they would build a war factory and 2 refineries before building a radar.. why? and what would you do?

B/c you want in most cases think about tank production first. Therefore, more refineries (gives more miners) and an extra war factory (speeds up tank production) is in many cases build before radar is up. I always do that, or even more: I go 3 WFs on some maps before radar as soviets. It is just having as soon as possible more tanks then the opponent to knock him out.

[Zancloufer27]

Though some sides [like Germany, Iraq, or Britain] might want to build radar earlier to get access to the extra units.

[truefeel]

Though some sides [like Germany, Iraq, or Britain] might want to build radar earlier to get access to the extra units.

Not really; rhinoes or grizzlies are more important then those extra units. You don't have anything on extra units when you have 8 tanks knocking at your front door while you only have 3.

[JJFZ3000]

What if you don't want to rush?

[Daishi]

1) Then you should probably not be playing C&C. The game was designed for play without rules, and all you're doing is running from proper play because it's not as desperate for newbs to keep it going.
2) If there's no rush, you should delay your tech even longer and cement your economy before making units.

[truefeel]

What if you don't want to rush?


What I explained is NOT a rush. A rush is going 0 miners, making straight tanks, sacrfieing your economy, selling your conyard and crossing late game potentionals, but increasing your begin game chances to win by having that fast tanks.

What you mean is that you don't to attack so early. Remind this though: if your opponent knows what he's doing, he will attack fast. Since you went so early for radar, you have far less tanks and will loose the game.

[Statalyzer]

If you don't want to rush, America is probably the best country to build radar early with. It won't do much to your tank production, and it'll give you free units to help defend your base with. See, radar early doesn't hurt your economy so much as radar + the extra radar-prereq units that people build. So if as USA on a medium sized map right after WF you went radar, then 2 more refineries, and from WF you built 1 miner and then straight tanks, you should be alright most of the time.

But with Germany, Britian or France or Korea you mostly don't build radar that early unless you are Korea and are trying an Eagle rush, which can be deadly but is very tough to pull off. As Allies, though, once you get radar, if your enemy has no AA units you should always build 1 rockie and send it to his base. He'll have to spend about as much to take down your rockie as you spent on it anyway, plus it lets you scout his base some more and possibly damage a building or tank.

As Soviets you usually wait, the only exception being if an Allied player has managed to tech up fast while still keeping your tanks from owning him, and is piling up Mirages. Once the Allied player has a Lab, unless you can tank rush him and really hurt him, get Radar ASAP and train some Desolators.

As Cuba you want to build Radar early b/c the terrorist-flak sneaking works much better if done very early on. As Russia or Libya, it doesn't matter because you shouldn't play as those countries.

[hogo98]

Well the game is about play anyway you can to win. Thats how i see it and thats how i play it but if you turtle you still have a good chance of winning just depends on how you adapt your strategy to your opponents.

[throstur]

The Radar/Airforce Command costs 1000, and you will have to sacrifice "half an ore miner" - however in reality you probably make around 2000 more money by making a refinery and then a radar than by making the radar first, because the extra ore miner (not to mention the refinery being a tad closer to the ore) will vacuum up some gold while you're still building the radar, building a refinery costs 2000 cash and you will therefore have to wait for around one - one and a half "game minutes" to get an extra ore miner, but if you build the radar first you're throwing an extra thousand in making the wait 3000 cash or around two "game minutes".

Of course having a radar is an advantage because you can see the enemy move, but I recommend choosing money over matter.

and to quote Statalyzer:

As Russia or Libya, it doesn't matter because you shouldn't play as those countries.

Russian tanks are very good for "late rushes" and take good care of your base in case of a defend. Libyan tanks are almost useless, except if you can sneak one in during a rush you'll probably end up blowing up a refinery, war factory, or barracks, costing him hundreds in build time.

[truefeel]

The problem is with that "late game rush": Tesla Tanks can be very easily replaced by rhinoes. So if your tesla tank rush succeeds, it's not b/c of the tesla tank.

[throstur]

I understand your point but with it I must point out that late in the game you could easily run over the enemy with Rhinos, but a few Tesla Tanks can make a difference. Also, when I say "late rush", I mean a rusher who doesn't wait for a long game, but who just secures him self an economy and base before rushing, this includes pumping out Rhinos while building refineries and building a radar when there are enough Miners, I should've probably made that more clear. Overall, Tesla tanks are good if there are ground units en masse that you need help running over. Also, for the price of 3 Tesla tanks you get 4 Rhinos, however if you've tried it, you'll see that three Tesla tanks have a much easier time destroying a pillbox than four Rhinos. Just so we're clear.

[truefeel]

True they kill infantry and buildings faster, but if you get into his base with either 4 rhinoes or 3 tesla tanks and he can't retaliate, you do enough damage, undependend if it is rhinoes or tesla's. Further: you don't have much on tesla tanks in combat, and that's what most games are about: the one who defeats the others army, wins in most cases. You can't destroy his base completely without whiping out his army. If you destroyed his army, you can destroy his whole base and then it doesn't matter if you use rhinoes or tesla's: he can't save his @ss anymore.

And this has something to do with your attacking plan: if your sneak attack doesn't work b/c your opponent is really watching his back, you can't do much except trying to whipe out his army, and you have disadvantaged yourself by making tesla tanks instead of rhinoes. Now you aren't much with tesla tanks in battle, as they don't fire on the move, do less damage then rhinoes and have less range AND are less numberous then rhinoes.

So short said:
if you use rhinoes to sneak in your opponents base, then:
-if your opponent doesn't see it, you can damage him
-If he sees it, you can always retreat and use those rhinoes in battle later
But if you use tesla tanks:
-and your opponent doesn't see it, you can also damage him
-if your opponent does see it, you can't do much with tesla tanks in battle later.

[Statalyzer]

The slight speed advantage in destroying enemy bases is not worth giving up Desolators (or even Terrorists) for. It's just too similar to the Rhino. Even the Tank Destroyer, which is not often worth giving up free plane upgrades or paradrops for, helps the Allies out more than the Tesla Tank helps the Soviets out.

I recommend never playing as Russia except on Naval Wars, in which case it's probably the best Soviet country (although Desos are still good b/c they can protect your NY from dolphins if it's close to shore). Libya actually isn't bad in Naval Wars either, it becomes better than Cuba IF the bases are on islands with no land passage. This is because the main advantage of Terrorist-Flaks over Demo Trucks (speed) is negated as both will be travelling in hovercraft. I'd stick to Russia or Iraq in Naval Wars though, if you want to be Soviets at all which is risky.

[yuri777]

IT depends. If you are america or korea build AFC as soon as possible. If your any other nation catch up on tank production first.

[Statalyzer]

If you are Korea and don't want to Eagle rush though, you'd wait as usual.

[apple23]

I say america is the ONLY country that should ever get radar before war factory unless you want to eagle rush with korea.

[truefeel]

Eagle rush is not a good idea. You better wait one more minute when you have 4 miners. Then you can start building 2 eagles and from the first one attacking.

[yuri777]

If you're facing an experienced Iraq player I think you should build a war factory first no matter which country you are. Desolators aren't that good on tanks.