Unconventional Units

[Quadhelix]

First, I would like to apologize if this is the wrong subfoum for what I am about to post. Unfortunately, what I am about to say does not fall neatly into any one category, so I had to pick one or not post this at all. That said, let me begin:

Has anyone else noticed the growing trend toward unconventional units in C&C games and expansion packs? By unconventional units, I mean units that do not fight in the traditional manner but are still effective combat units, either on their own or in a mix with other units.

Unconventional Units in C&C history (actual combat effectiveness not guaranteed):

C&C
Stealth Tank (special attack)

Red Alert
Mobile Gap Generator (force multiplier)
Radar Jammer (force multiplier)

RA: Aftermath
Chrono Tank (special attack)
MAD Tank (unique weapon/force multiplier)

Tiberian Sun
Disruptor (unique weapon)
Stealth Tank (special attack)
Subterranean Units (special attack)

TS: Firestorm
Mobile EMP (force multiplier)
Mobile Stealth Generator (force multiplier)

RA2
Chrono Legionnaire (special attack/unique weapon)
Chrono Infantry (special attack)
[Edit (5/28/2007 11:42 AM)
Prism Tank (unique weapon)
Mirage Tank (special attack)]
Spy (unique weapon)
Yuri (unique weapon)
Crazy Ivan (unique weapon)
Terror Drone (unique weapon)
Giant Squid (unique weapon)

Yuri's Revenge
Siege Chopper (special attack)
Brute (unique weapon)
Magnetron (unique weapon/force multiplier)
Chaos Drone (unique weapon)
Floating Disk (unique weapon/force multiplier)

Generals
Hacker (unique weapon)
Hijacker (unique weapon)

Zero hour
Avenger (force multiplier)
Microwave Tank (unique weapon/force multiplier)
ECM Tank (unique weapon/force multiplier)
Nuke Cannon with Neutron Shells (unique weapon)
Saboteur (unique weapon)

Thank you for your time.

[C4]

What about it?
Diversity and creativity from the creators are good, right?!
And what do u call traditional? Bullets, tank shells, bombs and fire?
There are other ways (some real, others not much) of having an unit being an effective war-unit. Looking at the chronology of those games (mostly futuristic) sounds welcome to consider such ideas.

[SgtRicko]

A better forum to post this would've been the "Other C&C Discussion Boards", but this is fine.;)

Anyhoot, here's my critique:



C&C
Stealth Tank (special attack)


Eh, it's not THAT whacked you know - I'll bet that the US govt is already researching some project similar to the stealth tank as well!



Red Alert
Mobile Gap Generator (force multiplier)
Radar Jammer (force multiplier)


A lot of the stranger units in RA1 were actually based on plans and research that was actually done during and after WWII. There really was a gap generator project of sorts in truth, only difference is it was called the Philadelphia Project (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_Project). Also, the project inspired the Chronosphere as well.


RA: Aftermath
Chrono Tank (special attack)
MAD Tank (unique weapon/force multiplier)


The Mad tank, though weird as it was, was actually the precursor to EMP-based weapons. Only thing is, Stalin's scientists didn't realize the true effectiveness of EMP , and also included a violent vibration blast in it as well, which isn't present in EMP weapons in any other C&C game, or in real life.

Oh, and honestly, the MADD tank sucked, cause it was just too slow and took too long to detonate.



Tiberian Sun
Disruptor (unique weapon)
Stealth Tank (special attack)
Subterranean Units (special attack)


the disruptor is basically a highly modified soundwave emitter with an odd crystal that makes the harmonics of the blast unusually powerful. With the exception of the crystal, we've already tried such weapons in real life (with not too much success though:\ ).



RA2
Chrono Legionnaire (special attack/unique weapon)
Chrono Infantry (special attack)
Spy (unique weapon)
Yuri (unique weapon)
Crazy Ivan (unique weapon)
Terror Drone (unique weapon)
Giant Squid (unique weapon)


Ok, ummm... RA2 was pretty whacked out in almost every way, so I really can't defend it too well, but I do know that both the US and Soviet govts. did research on using dolphins as sea-mine detectors and giant squids as... well, giant monster squids that sink ships and crap.:|

And have you ever heard of Uri Geller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_Geller)?



Yuri's Revenge
Siege Chopper (special attack)
Brute (unique weapon)
Magnetron (unique weapon/force multiplier)
Chaos Drone (unique weapon)
Floating Disk (unique weapon/force multiplier)


Again, RA2 was whacked out, YR was even worse - few of Yuri's units have ANY real-life counterpart or inspiration. Most of them I dare say were inspired by old sci-fi flicks from the 60's and early 70's.

There is one exception though: the Siege Chopper. Some country actually dreamed up the idea of a flying artillery piece that could deploy anywhere, but it got scrapped due to the weight of the artillery gun and other technical limitations.


Generals
Hacker (unique weapon)
Hijacker (unique weapon)


China is notorious for using information warfare and hackers these days, so the hacker kinda makes sense (except for siphoning credits illegally, which I am amazed didn't get China into some deep troublr with the business world in Generals).

And Hijackers, while not being THAT capable in terms of hijacking everything and anything in sight, could realistically be trained to do so. I would not expect much success though.



Zero hour
Avenger (force multiplier)


The USA already has Avengers, dude, and they do the same damn things they do in the game, seriously.



Microwave Tank (unique weapon/force multiplier)

The US has this too: check this link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_Weapons) (you'll see it mostly does the same thing).


ECM Tank (unique weapon/force multiplier)

Most countries have this already, though not in this form. It's mostly connected to foward ops centers, or AWAC units, not tanks (and it usually can't jam missiles, especially at close range).


Nuke Cannon with Neutron Shells (unique weapon)

Once, again, Linkie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_bomb)!!!:p

And yes, China DOES have some form of this weapon, they just don't wanna admit it!

[Derek]

He never said anything about Sci-fi, Ricko:
By unconventional units, I mean units that do not fight in the traditional manner but are still effective combat units, either on their own or in a mix with other units.
Read the post closer next time.

[Quadhelix]

What about it?
I thought that it was interesting.

And what do u call traditional? Bullets, tank shells, bombs and fire?
Pretty much, although I included Titan mechs and the Laser General's Laser Tanks within the "conventional units" category. Anything whose weapon doesixed amount of damage per shot and whose speed (and, of course, firepower) is the sole factor in its effectiveness as a raider (hit-and-run tactics).

A better forum to post this would've been the "Other C&C Discussion Boards", but this is fine.;)

Anyhoot, here's my critique:




Eh, it's not THAT whacked you know - I'll bet that the US govt is already researching some project similar to the stealth tank as well!




A lot of the stranger units in RA1 were actually based on plans and research that was actually done during and after WWII. There really was a gap generator project of sorts in truth, only difference is it was called the Philadelphia Project (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_Project). Also, the project inspired the Chronosphere as well.



The Mad tank, though weird as it was, was actually the precursor to EMP-based weapons. Only thing is, Stalin's scientists didn't realize the true effectiveness of EMP , and also included a violent vibration blast in it as well, which isn't present in EMP weapons in any other C&C game, or in real life.

Oh, and honestly, the MADD tank sucked, cause it was just too slow and took too long to detonate.




the disruptor is basically a highly modified soundwave emitter with an odd crystal that makes the harmonics of the blast unusually powerful. With the exception of the crystal, we've already tried such weapons in real life (with not too much success though:\ ).




Ok, ummm... RA2 was pretty whacked out in almost every way, so I really can't defend it too well, but I do know that both the US and Soviet govts. did research on using dolphins as sea-mine detectors and giant squids as... well, giant monster squids that sink ships and crap.:|

And have you ever heard of Uri Geller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_Geller)?




Again, RA2 was whacked out, YR was even worse - few of Yuri's units have ANY real-life counterpart or inspiration. Most of them I dare say were inspired by old sci-fi flicks from the 60's and early 70's.

There is one exception though: the Siege Chopper. Some country actually dreamed up the idea of a flying artillery piece that could deploy anywhere, but it got scrapped due to the weight of the artillery gun and other technical limitations.



China is notorious for using information warfare and hackers these days, so the hacker kinda makes sense (except for siphoning credits illegally, which I am amazed didn't get China into some deep troublr with the business world in Generals).

And Hijackers, while not being THAT capable in terms of hijacking everything and anything in sight, could realistically be trained to do so. I would not expect much success though.




The USA already has Avengers, dude, and they do the same damn things they do in the game, seriously.





The US has this too: check this link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_Weapons) (you'll see it mostly does the same thing).




Most countries have this already, though not in this form. It's mostly connected to foward ops centers, or AWAC units, not tanks (and it usually can't jam missiles, especially at close range).




Once, again, Linkie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_bomb)!!!:p

And yes, China DOES have some form of this weapon, they just don't wanna admit it!
I'm sorry, I seem to have given the wrong impression: I like the idea of units that are not "conventional." Also, just because something is based on a real life weapon system does not make it any less unconventional.

Part of the problem is that I was using a slightly modified definition of conventional: a Laser Titan (General Townes returns in Tiberian Sun: Zero Hour:D) would be conventional because, despite the fact that it is a mech that shoots lasers, there is no gameplay difference between it and a Medium Tank: you mass them and charge.

The Stealth Tank, on the other hand, has a mundane weapon (missiles) and moves in a very traditional manner (on treads). However, if you try massing Stealth Tanks and charging with them, you would be better off using Attack Bikes/Recon Bikes. Stealth Tanks are "unconventional" because they have abilities other than speed+health+firepower that affect the combat effectiveness.

The Avenger is unconventional, not because of its anti-aircraft lasers, which fall within my definition of conventional, but rather because its only anti-ground weapon does no damage itself but rather improves the ability of nearby units to do damage.

[Edit (5/28/2007 12:49 PM)
He never said anything about Sci-fi, Ricko:

Thank you for noticing.]


I am actually in the process of conceptualizing a side that has nothing but unconventional units. (This should probably go in the Modding Subforum, but it is relevant to my point of liking unconventional units)

Infantry:Chaos Soldier: weapon similar Yuri's Chaos Drone, but in launcher grenade form and weaker (effects last 0.5 seconds per shot, shots are cumulative)

Hijacker: Can kill one vehicle driver every X minutes (X should be large: 5 minutes, minimum, preferably 10-15 minutes). Does not necessarily hijack vehicle once driver is killed. Not stealth when moving. Must enter vehicle to kill driver but will not automatically remain in vehicle.

Brute: Expensive. Vulnerable to anti-tank weapons. Attack dog for vehicles. (Brute vs. Battlemaster: Battlemaster wins)
Vehicles:Jammer Tank: Main Battle Tank. No gun except a weapon similar to ECM Tank's tank disruptor.

Proto-Magnetron: Combines Magnetron's levitate beam with the Microwave Tank's building disruptor. No offensive firepower.

C3 Tank: Combines Avenger's targeting laser with the ECM Tanks missile scrambler.
Needs some work, but I feel that it is at least a good start.


Edit (5/28/2007 2:12 PM): The "official" thread for the hypothetical faction can be found here (http://forums.cncden.com/showthread.php?p=343535#post343535). Please direct to that thread all comments, criticisms, flames, etc. about the new faction idea.

[chaoscontrol512]

The USA already has Avengers, dude, and they do the same damn things they do in the game, seriously.
Except the real-life avenger fires stinger missiles link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1097_Avenger) :p

[Quadhelix]

After some thought, there are several other units that I would place in the "Borderline" category:

Amphibious Units:
Hover MRLS (TS)
Robot Tank (YR)
Amphibious APC (real, but unique in TS)

"Powered" Units:
Robot Tank (YR)
Laser Tank (ZH)

Infantry Emulators:
IFV (RA2)
Combat Cycle (ZH)

[Derek]

I think "Infantry Emulators" could be broadened into "Garrisonable Vehicles" and then you could add the Battlefortres (YR) and Humvee, Helix, LO, AO, ATC, and Battlebus, all from Generals and ZH.

[chaoscontrol512]

The Combat Cycle really isnt all that unconventional. The GLA are low-tech and resourceful, they'll use anything they can get, including motorcycles. Also, the German army used these for recon during WW2.

[Daishi]

It's unconventional when you realize it morphs to match the unit on it.

[chaoscontrol512]

It doest really "morph", the guy riding it just straps his weapon onto it somewhere.

[Derek]

It doest really "morph", the guy riding it just straps his weapon onto it somewhere.
Thats what all of them do. The only unit that doesn't do exactly that is the IFV, which is limited to a smaller array of weapons, but I think that was a technical limitation of RA2.

[Delta-4]

It's still unconventional because it's a vehicle that changes weaponry.

[nyarlathotep]

sorry, not to spoil the fun etc... but what about the unconventional weaponry from ... Dune 2 & Emperor? Don't forget, it was Dune 2 which began all the fun we now have :) I was mostly thinking about:

Dune 2
The Deviator
Sonic Tank

Emperor
idem as above
Buzzsaw
Fremen Fedaykin
Contaminator
Leech

Hope it gives you guys something more to think upon ;)