Teching up (China)

[Daishi]

Getting your propaganda center has never warranted much thought to me, but I've been wondering recently: when is the best time to get it? I make it after i have 3 gatts to defend the build zone. a float of at least 3k, and a lix combing the field (if I'm China, I'm almost always inf) Before then, I got it as soon as I could afford it so I could get ECMs and subliminal messaging, but I ended up getting flanked and owned by even the weakest opponents.

When do you get your prop center?

[(U.S.S.R) Jamie]

I usually get it when i know im in control of the battle and look like im in a winning position OR get it ASAP if there is like 10 mins no rush

[Zancloufer27]

When I have enough cash and my base isn't in any immediate trouble.

[Daishi]

Here's the thing, though, is it urgent? Like would it be stupid to make another war factory?

[Zancloufer27]

Depends. Vs a Teched GLA, or if you have 3 WF already, make the Prop center. Tank mirror yes, nuke mirror, maybe.

[yurihomer]

you could build propaganda center with the starting money. it all depends. 4 things that i think a propaganda center brings are overlord, ecm, lotus and subliminal message.

[Daishi]

Also it brings artillery, which does come in handy on some maps.

[drgNz~]

Usually when I've got a couple of units on the field, and I'm applying pressure to the opponent. The moment I hit 2.5k and I'm in the right position, my prop goes up in the back of the base.

[Derek]

When I have enough cash and my base isn't in any immediate trouble.
Pretty much the best advice.

You don't want to tech too fast or you'll be overrun while building it (because you won't have enough money), but tech too slow and your opponent will tech before you. However teching up is less important for China (OLs and ECMs are only needed to counter other teched units) than it is for USA (S&D is an absolute must) and GLA (Buggys, busses, and upgrades all help a lot). However you should always build a Prop center before a 3rd WF. In fact, you should build an AF before a 3rd WF (unless you're Nuke, because Nuke's AF sucks with the nuke migs upgrade).

[Zancloufer27]

Nukelixes can be of great use. You would be amazed what a Bunekr/Gatt lix will do in a China mirror.

[yurihomer]

i believe overlord and ecm gives u huge advantage vs any faction. expecially nuke overlord and ecm.

[Derek]

i believe overlord and ecm gives u huge advantage vs any faction. expecially nuke overlord and ecm.
Its a nice advantage for sure (mainly the ECM), but nothing like S&D or GLA's upgraded buggys/busses. In general, USA needs to tech before GLA which needs to tech before China. Of course, no army wants to be fighting a teched up army for too long before teching themselves.

[Jester Kirby]

Debeatable, I can understand waiting so you don't lose all of your cash, but if I have enough to build that and an overlord, I usually build it strait away, since the overlord is good defense untill I have more cash.

Then again, I usually play as USA so..=P

[Derek]

Debeatable, I can understand waiting so you don't lose all of your cash, but if I have enough to build that and an overlord, I usually build it strait away, since the overlord is good defense untill I have more cash.
But you won't have the Overlord until you already have money again (money is spent before things are built), in fact, you won't even be able to start the Overlord until you have a Propaganda Center, so that is really quite flawed logic. If you've got one WF for every supply as China you shouldn't ever be floating anyways, when you decide to tech stop production at one (or two) of your WFs to save up enough money (it won't take long).

[Zancloufer27]

I Usually have 3 supplies and 2 WF, so I can tech up pretty quick.

[Jester Kirby]

But you won't have the Overlord until you already have money again (money is spent before things are built), in fact, you won't even be able to start the Overlord until you have a Propaganda Center, so that is really quite flawed logic. If you've got one WF for every supply as China you shouldn't ever be floating anyways, when you decide to tech stop production at one (or two) of your WFs to save up enough money (it won't take long).

Build the cnter...start the overlord. You should have the money for both of them before u build anything. =P

As I said though, I don't play as China...

[Derek]

Build the cnter...start the overlord. You should have the money for both of them before u build anything. =P
Umm, no? First of all you'll easily make the $2000 for an Overlord while building your Propaganda Center, so you don't need to save money for both of them. Second, the entire logic of your original point is circular because you are in essense proposing to defend yourself with an Overlord while building a Propaganda Center. Keep in mind that once you have a Prop center you no long need protection, so building an Overlord for protection then is too late.

[Jester Kirby]

Umm, no? First of all you'll easily make the $2000 for an Overlord while building your Propaganda Center, so you don't need to save money for both of them. Second, the entire logic of your original point is circular because you are in essense proposing to defend yourself with an Overlord while building a Propaganda Center. Keep in mind that once you have a Prop center you no long need protection, so building an Overlord for protection then is too late.

Ah, I wasn't quite clear I see. That's my own fault. I never said the overlord was to protect your building while it was in the making lol, it was base defense entirely. lol

And I already know someone is going to say "like an overlord will protect you from anything major" it won't I mean those stupid little 1 man rushes...and evil monkeys....gotta have something to stop those.

[Daishi]

Ah, I wasn't quite clear I see. That's my own fault. I never said the overlord was to protect your building while it was in the making lol, it was base defense entirely. lol

And I already know someone is going to say "like an overlord will protect you from anything major" it won't I mean those stupid little 1 man rushes....

Noob school is OPEN. :color3:

-Make an ECM before you make overlords.

-Don't make China's defenses defensively unless you're on a turtle map like Tournament Island or Final Crusade. (both of which you should stay away from for the sake of balance) Attack constantly instead and keep his interest away from your base.

-Base defenses are a misnomer. They should generally be built in the field to support your own army and to hold ground until you can reinforce. Not to hold your base down.

-there is no such thing as a 1-man rush. maybe several MD in an ambulance or chinook can knock out a dozer or a supply gatherers, but that's about it.

-If it strikes after you finish your first overlord, it cannot be called a rush. Rushes are early, powerful attacks.

-Don't give out advice if it doesn't make any sense, even to you.

-There are no evil monkeys. Ever. Anywhere.

[Zancloufer27]

In the second point. A bunker is useful to defend your base in some cases, especially if your going tri supply on TD and need something in the middile.

[drgNz~]

Lifesavers on flanks in Nuke Mirrors.

[Zancloufer27]

Yeah, and a Gatt cannon can stop pretty much any Pre Tech Attack by Stealth.

[tulleh]

-there is no such thing as a 1-man rush. maybe several MD in an ambulance or chinook can knock out a dozer or a supply gatherers, but that's about it.

-If it strikes after you finish your first overlord, it cannot be called a rush. Rushes are early, powerful attacks.


I gotta disagree about 'rushes'. How can you define a rush? How do you define what IS a rush and what isn't? Is there a time value, which if you exceed, you're no longer 'rushing'? I can't say they're necessarily 'powerful' attacks. I interpret those to be crippling attacks, that maybe kill a warfactory, or a lot of buildings. 'Rushes' are early attacks, that HARRASS and generally annoy your opponent. Picking off supply gatherers and peons early game is a 'rush'. Rushes don't generally have the aim of killing an opponent in the first 5 minutes.

Therefore, I'd call it harrassment. A rush may be very early harrassment, but I just don't agree with the term 'rush' at all. Make your own mind up :P

[Zancloufer27]

A rush is an attack before you Tech up in CCG/ZH.

[Jester Kirby]

-Don't give out advice if it doesn't make any sense, even to you.

Made perfect sense to me...

-There are no evil monkeys. Ever. Anywhere.

That's what you think. :shifty:

[SgtRicko]

Proof that evil monkeys exsist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=evil+monkeys)

[Jester Kirby]

Proof that evil monkeys exsist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=evil+monkeys)



Thank you!

Lol, is there anything wikipideia doesnt have an article about?!

[Daishi]

Yeah, and a Gatt cannon can stop pretty much any Pre Tech Attack by Stealth.

TT > GC ;)

[yurihomer]

In the second point. A bunker is useful to defend your base in some cases, especially if your going tri supply on TD and need something in the middile.
u can garrison the buildingsBut you won't have the Overlord until you already have money again (money is spent before things are built), in fact, you won't even be able to start the Overlord until you have a Propaganda Center, so that is really quite flawed logic. If you've got one WF for every supply as China you shouldn't ever be floating anyways, when you decide to tech stop production at one (or two) of your WFs to save up enough money (it won't take long).
well, u can do that 2 dozers, 1 war factory, 2 supply depots building order. that will get u propaganda center with starting cash. and getting battle masters to defend (works best with nuke)

[Derek]

well, u can do that 2 dozers, 1 war factory, 2 supply depots building order. that will get u propaganda center with starting cash. and getting battle masters to defend (works best with nuke)
Yeah, but that just gets owned by decent players. With 1 WF you don't have enough units to attack or even defend both your supplies. They can target your trucks, your dozers, or your only WF, any of those will essentially eliminate you.

[yurihomer]

depend on ur luck, tend to work better vs gla.

[tulleh]

It really doesn't, since GLA will likely have more units and have so much speed, you'll need all the units you can get to stop him from hunting your dozers/trucks.

A rush is an attack before you Tech up in CCG/ZH.
Erm so if I get dozer hunted and can't tech up, I'll be rushing all the way through the game? Talk about a silly definition :S

[Daishi]

The idea of a rush is to attack and hit hard before it's possible to effectively combat as much power as you've successfully brought to your enemy's base. This usually is balanced out by the fact that any rush strategy leaves your economy weaker than a more all-around BO, stunting your ability to expand... assuming the game isn't ended by the rush.

[Derek]

Erm so if I get dozer hunted and can't tech up, I'll be rushing all the way through the game? Talk about a silly definition :S
:lol:

Really though, there is no good, concrete, unambiguous definition of a rush. Thats reason number 2 that the idea of "no rush" is stupid. Its also why some people, most notably AGMlauncher, refraim from using the term altogether. About the best definition I can give of a rush is an early attack, but that still leaves ambiguity as to what is defined as "early" and what is defined as an "attack".

[Daishi]

That's why I raid every ranked rules match I come across. If they want to play for the points, they're going to be fighting against someone who plays PROPERLY.

[Zancloufer27]

You could attack soon in the game, like after they tech up. They could say 'No Rush', but you could respond that you are sending an attack after the tech up, not microing a vee to rape their nooks :p

[SgtRicko]

Really though, there is no good, concrete, unambiguous definition of a rush. Thats reason number 2 that the idea of "no rush" is stupid. Its also why some people, most notably AGMlauncher, refraim from using the term altogether. About the best definition I can give of a rush is an early attack, but that still leaves ambiguity as to what is defined as "early" and what is defined as an "attack".

Well, mostly everyone I've met online and in person defines any attack under 3-4 minutes as a rush in most RTS games, so I guess that'll work (though that definately cannot apply to C&C3 due to the freaking speed of the resource collection).:|

As for the definition of attack... well, an attack is an attack: you just basically gotta fire a single bullet, and it's on, simple as that.

[Zancloufer27]

Not always. It could be a raid :p

[SgtRicko]

Not always. It could be a raid :p

A raid is basically a hit-and-run at the core; it could occur at any time of the game (stealth tank hit n' run, anybody?), so it's not really what you're implying it to be.

[Zancloufer27]

Like a Tech RPG attacking nooks? Thats an attack AND a raid :p

[tulleh]

A raid is a form of attack ;)

[drgNz~]

Who cares, just don't play no-rush and the term is irrelevant =/