Lion's Weekend Blurb - June 8-10

[Lion]

The new immigration bill that was before the US Senate was voted down this week. The bill was a step in the direction to legalize the estimated 12 million (give or take a mil) illegal immigrants currently living in the USA. I can tell ya that half of that number shops at my local Wal-Mart store. It's getting hard to find any English speaking peeps in there. I'm now a minority. We have a lot of orchards where I live, and the majority of those workers are of course illegals. But hey, the local yocals don't want to pick veggies, apples, and peaches for a living, so no matter how you slice the pie, they are needed. I actually talked to a foreman that works at a local veggie farm a few weeks ago. The veggies they grow have to be planted by hand, and harvested by hand. He said they have a crew of about 60 seasonal peeps that come up from the south. I asked him if they had to have a green card to work there. He looked at me and said..."you kiddin, the only thing we require is being able to work 10-12 hours a day in the fields pickin crops." I hate to say this, but half the peeps in my neck of da woods are fat and lazy, and won't do that kind of labor. Yet they are the ones that complain the loudest about the immigrants being in our country. I will say one thing, if we were to kick em all out, our economy would suffer greatly, and Wal-Mart would be out of business. So what DO we do about the illegal immigrants? Your turn to chime in.

[General Al Ramsey]

First of all you can't kick them all out there are too many of them plus they don't want to leave. They like it here. :shifty:

Secondly, if we did not have anyone picking and planting the food, we would starve. So we would eventually get out of our easy chairs and start planting.

Thirdly notice the the guy said 10-12 hours a day. There is no overtime for these peeps because they are seasonal workers. These people truly work their tails off. Even on Sunday mornings they are out there at the crack of dawn working away, while I take my time and read the Sunday paper and drink my cup of coffee.

I am not very keen on making them legal citizens though. Would you become a citizen of another country if you worked and lived there for a little while and came into the country illegally. I don't think so!

By the way you are not supposed to call them illegal aliens anymore. They are undocumented workers. (PC Talk in California) I think the government wants them to get documented so they get real paychecks so they too can pay taxes! :tantrum:

[BehindEnemyRhymes]

I can tell ya that half of that number shops at my local Wal-Mart store. It's getting hard to find any English speaking peeps in there. I'm now a minority.
Try visiting Wallmart in Florida, Lion... I swear, I have not heard any english speech there whatsoever. :dunce: Now I got nothing aginst spanish language but it just feels bizarre: "Am I still in States?"
I don't know man- on one hand, it's true that they're doing a lot of work that we would refuse to. On the other, such actions will encourage even more to come, and after a while (not sure how long a while) it'll be a big mess.
Nothing against immigration- I am an immigrant myself, but I went through a lot to get to be here, and so did many others, now seeing that some just bootleg their way in makes me go :rockbrow:.
As long as some good is coming out of it though.

[NuclearDreams]

This "bill" is mainly directed at illegals of the Spanish speaking persuasion. But what if it were another race that was flooding the U.S. with illegals, such as Pakistanis or Turks. No congressman or woman, who wants to be re-elected, would dare suggest to just legalize the lot and be done with it. I think many in congress are bias because Spanish is already integrated with much of American culture. But to throw a blanket over one specific group and scorn another is discrimination.

I don't agree with just blindly legalizing illegals, that sets a precedent that later can't be undone.

[Cylor]

People should not be rewarded for breaking the law. Period. That should be the only consideration.

[TQ]

I would suggest that a good deal of what needs to be said on the subject has been said by Maddox, here (http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=walmart)and then here (http://maddox.xmission.com/hatemail.cgi?p=1)(scroll down a bit). He wasn't addressing quite the same issue but it's still relevant.

It occurs to me that maybe the US government could work with the Mexican government to make Mexico livable, and then they'd be able to stay home, and everybody wins.

[Derek]

People should not be rewarded for breaking the law. Period. That should be the only consideration.
Then make them legal. Problem solved.

There are exactly two reasons to oppose illegal immigration:
1. Its illegal
2. Its immigration

If you oppose it for reason 1, then the solution is to make it legal. If you oppose it for reason 2, then you're a racist xenophobe. This whole immigration "crisis" is nothing but a repeat of what has been going on for over a hundred and fifty years in the US. The arguements now are the same as they were then, verbatim, with only the ethnicity changed from Irish/German/Polish/Chinese/etc. to Mexican.

[Annihlator :D]

Then make them legal. Problem solved.

There are exactly two reasons to oppose illegal immigration:
1. Its illegal
2. Its immigration

If you oppose it for reason 1, then the solution is to make it legal. If you oppose it for reason 2, then you're a racist xenophobe. This whole immigration "crisis" is nothing but a repeat of what has been going on for over a hundred and fifty years in the US. The arguements now and the same as they were then, verbatim, with only the ethnicity changed from Irish/German/Polish/Chinese/etc. to Mexican.

true, and I don't want to hear we'll be over crowded, in fact most places in the U.S. have no inhabitants for miles

[eLDiablo]

true, and I don't want to hear we'll be over crowded, in fact most places in the U.S. have no inhabitants for miles

And until the jobs move to those places, they will stay like that. And America's cities will continue to crowd.

The problem with illegal immigration isn't the migrant workers, its the criminal element, whatever percentage it is.

[[Lazer]Tank]

90% of latino illegals are very nice people who want to work hard and make a decent living. I think to solve all this is we legalize them to give them all the same rights we Americans enjoy. Then we make them pay taxes like the rest of us. No special brakes or rebates, just plain jane tax that every American has to pay. Also, all immigrant criminals will be punished like everyone else in America. No shipping a criminal back to later find him over the border again.

[starscream007]

It occurs to me that maybe the US government could work with the Mexican government to make Mexico livable, and then they'd be able to stay home, and everybody wins.


Its a good idea but the Mexican government intentionally keeps certain groups of people poor.

[Derek]

The problem with illegal immigration isn't the migrant workers, its the criminal element, whatever percentage it is.
And the only reason those exist is because the act of immigration (for many people) is itself illegal. Its like prohibition: When alcohol was made illegal, it got mixed up in all sorts of other illegal businesses, but when it was made legal again, the criminal elements had to (mostly) get out.

[Cylor]

Then make them legal. Problem solved.

By Jove, I think you've just stumbled upon the solution to eliminating all crime on Earth! Let's just make everything legal, everywhere! No more crime! :lmao:

[Ace]

totally agree with laser tank :) a bit OT but have you heard of Paris Hilton going to jail? haha i didn't belive there was such good justice system in america. :D
I've seen other celebs getting away to often with stuff but now finnally someone got Hilton to the real world :p

[eLDiablo]

And the only reason those exist is because the act of immigration (for many people) is itself illegal. Its like prohibition: When alcohol was made illegal, it got mixed up in all sorts of other illegal businesses, but when it was made legal again, the criminal elements had to (mostly) get out.


Oh yes, sneaking over a fence always leads to drug dealing, murder and gang activity. How i stayed on the straight and narrow after hopping my neighbors fences to cut through yards as a kid will always be a mystery to police.


The VAST majority of illegal immigrants aren't criminals past their immigrant status, so no, its not because of how they got here, its because theyre just assholes.

[Derek]

By Jove, I think you've just stumbled upon the solution to eliminating all crime on Earth! Let's just make everything legal, everywhere! No more crime! :lmao:
Murder is illegal because murder is wrong. Theft is illegal beause theft is wrong. Why is immigration illegal?

Oh yes, sneaking over a fence always leads to drug dealing, murder and gang activity. How i stayed on the straight and narrow after hopping my neighbors fences to cut through yards as a kid will always be a mystery to police.

The VAST majority of illegal immigrants aren't criminals past their immigrant status, so no, its not because of how they got here, its because theyre just assholes.
Exactly my point. These people are not criminals, however because they are not able to come here through legal channels, some resort to illegal means to get across, such as drug trafficking. If it was significantly easier for these people to immigrate by legal means, then other illegal businesses would not be able to use illegal immigrants to further their own ends.

[Cowafteru]

We can't kick them all out, its impossible, a waste of government resources, and we need them anyway.

But to legalize them w/ amnesty is honestly a great way to reward them for breaking our laws.

So how is the problem solved? I think Bush's Guest Worker program is a decent start, but its a solution for what is coming down the road in the future, not for the 12million give or take that are in the country now.

I live in California, the capital of illegal immigration. And let me tell you, they are everywhere. And they are generally not bad folk. LA has lots of problems with illegals and gangs (and an amendment to the Senate Immigration Bill that made it mandatory for illegals charged with felonies to be deported failed, tho the reason for that was more political than anything else) so we come back to solving the current problem.

I cannot support granting blanket amnesty. In my mind they are being rewarded for breaking our laws. But I do think that the law should be changed so that illegal immigrant children cannot use our schools (they don't pay taxes) or our welfare state policies (again, they don't pay taxes). Building a wall to help curb further illegal immigration is a good step in that direction, and no a wall is not racist xenophobia. Building it would be as good for our economy as it will be for our national security.

[NuclearDreams]

Migration and immigration are two different things. You can't just open your borders and let people migrate into your land just because the wannabe immigrants are poor and don't have enough of life's necessities in their own country. If the availability of illegal immigrants were not so readily available then the companies who employ their services would have no choice but to employ legal nationals at acceptable wage levels. This is hard to forsee, at the moment, because the U.S. is practically overrun with cheap labor, mostly originating from south of the border. The suggestion that we just legalize the ones that slipped under or over the fence and then start over again is the very stupidity that got us into this predicament.

Every land on this planet has some sort of immigration law(s) on the books. Why is it wrong to enforce them? You won't solve Mexico's problems by opening the borders and assimilating their poverty stricken citizens. Mexico has a long history of mishandling their poor. And before you accuse America of the same crime, remember, we don't export our poverty.

[Kicken]

Murder is illegal because murder is wrong. Theft is illegal beause theft is wrong. Why is immigration illegal?

Immigration is not illegal, it is the illegal immigration that is illegal. Why it is illegal is because you do not undergo all the correct procedures as well they do not pay taxes, etcetera.

[Derek]

I live in California, the capital of illegal immigration. And let me tell you, they are everywhere
And I live in North Carolina, with the fastest growing immigrant population in the US.

Immigration is not illegal, it is the illegal immigration that is illegal. Why it is illegal is because you do not undergo all the correct procedures as well they do not pay taxes, etcetera.
But you have still not answered the question, why is illegal immigration illegal? Its not because they don't undergo the neccessary processes, they would be more than willing to if they could, but the US only allows a fixed number of immigrants per year. The US only allows 675,000 immigrants per year (source (http://www.uscis.gov/files/nativedocuments/Legislation%20from%201981-1996.pdf)), guess what, a lot more people want to come to the US than that. The immigration cap should be either removed or set very high and the application process should be made simpler and easier, if a prospective immigrant has not commited any serious crimes in Mexico (or wherever they are coming from) and seems to be somewhat intelligent (and most of these immigrants are quite intelligent, after all they can clearly outsmart the border patrol) then there is no reason to bar them from coming here. There would be too few people left that couldn't immigrate legally for there to be any serious illegal immigration business.

You can't just open your borders and let people migrate into your land just because the wannabe immigrants are poor and don't have enough of life's necessities in their own country.
Yeah you can. I think you may have been living in Germany a bit too long. You let every person in the world who wants to come to the US come immediately, it wouldn't even be 10% of the population.

Every land on this planet has some sort of immigration law(s) on the books. Why is it wrong to enforce them?
The better question is "Why is it right to enforce them?" Just as a suspect is innocent until proven guilty, an act should be legal until proven harmful, and only then made illegal. Immigration has not and never will harm the US in any way shape and form, it will only ever make it a better place in the long run.

And before you accuse America of the same crime, remember, we don't export our poverty.
No, but we will gladly import others'. I'll leave you all with an excerpt from a poem, I don't think you've ever heard it, but you should take it to heart.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

[berlin88]

Here are some of my views on illegal aliens and illegal immigrants.

1. DO NOT use politically correct terms like "undocumented workers" or "migrants" when refering to illegals. Call them what they are. Using PC terms is an attempt by the left to gain sympathy for people breaking the laws.


2. ENFORCE IMMIGRATION LAWS. Several cities such as Houston, Richmond and Phoenix do not enforce the laws, even though they should. They don't ask whether or not somewhone is there legally, and if they are illegal they just release them without fines or charges.

For instance, last year a Houston police officer was killed by an illegal, who had previously been arrested for child molestation and released, even though they had been found guilty. Said individual was later re- arrested by the government and deported for being in America illegally. Then, the illegal came back and was given a valid state ID card, even though he was an illegal with a criminal record (the state records stated as much). The cop was killed when he made a routine traffic stop and was shot by the illegal. Even after an illegal immigrant killed a police officer and was shown to already have a criminal record, city officials still refused to enforce immigration laws and round up illegal immigrants who had commited other crimes (besides immigration violations) and been released.


3. Get rid of the sanctuary cities, since they prevent the government from enforcing the laws. Pass legislation withholding federal funding from cities that do not enforce federal law.

How can a city such as Houston have illegal aliens/ immigrants comitting crimes and yet have no interest in stopping it? They simply release said criminal back onto the streets to comit more crimes.


4. IF we do grant them amnesty, which I oppose, we must make it very clear that they did not come here legally, and that they were in violation of the law, but granted amnesty because it would have been a political nightmare to try and deport 12 million illegals.

Amnesty Internationl and every other group would have been challenging every single deportation if the government had tried to deport the illegals instead of giving them anesty.


5. If we do grant amnesty to the ones already here, we simply invite more to come, thinking they will get amnesty to. Making it legal or giving amnesty does not solve the problem of keeping more from coming in.


6. America needs to put pressure on Mexico to do something. Mexico makes no attempt to stop people from crossing the border illegally and coming here illegally. Furthermore, Mexico complains about how we treat "illegal aliens" and "law breakers", yet they treat them even worse.

Mexico intentially keeps esctions of the population dirt poor, and encourages them to enter America illegally.

Secondly, Mexico recently passed a law the other year that prevents non Mexicans from holding public office or getting decent jobs. The whole idea was to make sure all the government positions and good jobs did not get taken by foreigners. Why aren't the left wing Liberals complaining about this?


7. We need to create mroe incentives for people to stay in Mexico and Latin America, rather than come here.


8. IMMIGRANTS MUST LEARN TO SPEAK ENGLISH

If they can also speak Spanish that is fine, but Americans must speek a common language, which is English.


9. Immigrants must hold allegiance to only one country. They are either Mexicans or Americans, but not both.

"We have not any room here for a divided allegiance. A man has got to be an American and nothing else; and he has no business to be mixing us up with questions of foreign politics, British or Irish, German or French, and no business to try to perpetuate their language and customs in the land of complete religious toleration and equality. If, however, he does become honestly and in good faith an American, then he is entitled to stand precisely as all other Americans stand, and it is the height of un-Americanism to discriminate against him in any way because of creed or birthplace. No spirit can be more thoroughly alien to American institutions, than the spirit of the Know-Nothings." - Theodore Roosevelt


10. Common language, history and identity.

Americans must have a common language, identity and history, something to unite the people as one large group. The best way for Mexicans and other Hispanics to prove they should be allowed to stay, is buy assimilating into American life. Honroing their Hispanic heritage is fine, but it should not be an exuce for not adapting to the host country.

The sooner they accept the fact they are Americans and nothing more, then then we can start making some progress. "A house divided upon itself cannot stand"- Lincoln


11. American already has a sizeable percentage of people who are jobless, homeless and in poverty, so why should be be letting more illegals in? We should be helping the people who are American by birth and already here to improve their lives, rather then brushing them aside and focusing on illegals.

If we let more illegals in, then we have more people competing for jabs, land and reosurces.


12. Lastly, ALL states must require valid ID cards, that state who the person is, and whether or nto they are a legal resident/ citizen. Democrats oppose this, simply because they want to encourage more illegals to vote and because they think it would gain them some good PR.

In Arizona, they wanted to weed out unregistered voters or people who were voting illegally, buy issuing state ID cards, but the Democrats opposed the idea of a state ID card. Even when Republicans offered to make it a free ID card paid for a delievered by the state. All someone would have to do is request an ID card, and the state would pay for it and deliver it, but the Democrats in Arizona still objected, because most of the illegal voters were voting for them.

[NuclearDreams]

Well Derek you are dreaming if you think that just opening the borders and letting foriegn citizens cross into the U.S. at will is going to solve any problem(s). There are several major obstacles that would have to be cleared before tearing down the borders and allowing a free-for-all.

Health care - What health care would they recieve under the current system. Implementation of national health care? That will never happen in the U.S.

Welfare benefits - Most will be unemployed, which means higher taxes to pay for food on the table. If you think that this won't be a serious problem than you need to take a gander at the taxes citizens paid before and after the reunification of Germany. The sudden influx of East Germans and the building of facilities to manage the overwhelmed welfare and unemployment system has caused a serious imbalance between living costs and taxation.

Education - How many of those migrants will speak English well enough to understand what teachers are trying to say. Will students be able to scholastically integrate on a massive scale.

Language - The English language is already under attack in the U.S., many who don't speak fluently want English off the list as the official language of America.

Integration - In Europe integration is a massive problem. Countries such as Germany, France and Sweeden have some of the largest immigrant populations and are suffering as a result of unwillingness on the immigrants side to integrate with the host country.


Some other problems that will arise as a result of a sudden opening of U.S. borders to migrants. Exploitation, discrimination, segregation, rise in ethnic specific crimes, rise in so called "hate crimes", riots and maybe civil war just to name a few.

[Derek]

In Bold are all arguements that have been used over the past 150 years against the Irish/Germans/Poles/Italians/Jews/Chinese/.


2. ENFORCE IMMIGRATION LAWS. Several cities such as Houston, Richmond and Phoenix do not enforce the laws, even though they should. They don't ask whether or not somewhone is there legally, and if they are illegal they just release them without fines or charges.

For instance, last year a Houston police officer was killed by an illegal, who had previously been arrested for child molestation and released, even though they had been found guilty. Said individual was later re- arrested by the government and deported for being in America illegally. Then, the illegal came back and was given a valid state ID card, even though he was an illegal with a criminal record (the state records stated as much). The cop was killed when he made a routine traffic stop and was shot by the illegal. Even after an illegal immigrant killed a police officer and was shown to already have a criminal record, city officials still refused to enforce immigration laws and round up illegal immigrants who had commited other crimes (besides immigration violations) and been released.
So one illegal immigrant murdered a police officer. Sadly these things happen quite often at the hands of legal citizens. Illegal immigrants are no more likely to commit crimes (other than immigrating illegally) than other citizens.

[The general arguement here is that illegal immigrants commit crime, although its not explicitely stated]
How can a city such as Houston have illegal aliens/ immigrants comitting crimes and yet have no interest in stopping it? They simply release said criminal back onto the streets to comit more crimes.
Because they don't have very many illegal immigrants committing crimes.

5. If we do grant amnesty to the ones already here, we simply invite more to come, thinking they will get amnesty to. Making it legal or giving amnesty does not solve the problem of keeping more from coming in.
The more the merrier. We have jobs and space to go around.

8. IMMIGRANTS MUST LEARN TO SPEAK ENGLISH

If they can also speak Spanish that is fine, but Americans must speek a common language, which is English.
They do, but you'ld be surprised how hard it is to learn a new language as an adult, but trust me they learn and surprisingly quickly too. And their children speak English perfectly.

9. Immigrants must hold allegiance to only one country. They are either Mexicans or Americans, but not both.

"We have not any room here for a divided allegiance. A man has got to be an American and nothing else; and he has no business to be mixing us up with questions of foreign politics, British or Irish, German or French, and no business to try to perpetuate their language and customs in the land of complete religious toleration and equality. If, however, he does become honestly and in good faith an American, then he is entitled to stand precisely as all other Americans stand, and it is the height of un-Americanism to discriminate against him in any way because of creed or birthplace. No spirit can be more thoroughly alien to American institutions, than the spirit of the Know-Nothings." - Theodore Roosevelt

10. Common language, history and identity.

Americans must have a common language, identity and history, something to unite the people as one large group. The best way for Mexicans and other Hispanics to prove they should be allowed to stay, is buy assimilating into American life. Honroing their Hispanic heritage is fine, but it should not be an exuce for not adapting to the host country.

The sooner they accept the fact they are Americans and nothing more, then then we can start making some progress. "A house divided upon itself cannot stand"- Lincoln
A lot of these illegal immigrants are more American than the average American. They're trying to make a better life for themselves with nothing more than hard work. The American Dream. Thats more than you can say for many citizens.

11. American already has a sizeable percentage of people who are jobless, homeless and in poverty, so why should be be letting more illegals in? We should be helping the people who are American by birth and already here to improve their lives, rather then brushing them aside and focusing on illegals.

If we let more illegals in, then we have more people competing for jabs, land and reosurces.
On the contrary. The US has one of the lowest unemployment rates of the western world. Go compare the numbers with countries in Europe, you'll be quite surprised.

12. Lastly, ALL states must require valid ID cards, that state who the person is, and whether or nto they are a legal resident/ citizen. Democrats oppose this, simply because they want to encourage more illegals to vote and because they think it would gain them some good PR.

In Arizona, they wanted to weed out unregistered voters or people who were voting illegally, buy issuing state ID cards, but the Democrats opposed the idea of a state ID card. Even when Republicans offered to make it a free ID card paid for a delievered by the state. All someone would have to do is request an ID card, and the state would pay for it and deliver it, but the Democrats in Arizona still objected, because most of the illegal voters were voting for them.
1. We already have IDs. They're called Social Security cards and Driver's Liscenses.
2. Many if not most Republicans oppose state or federal ID cards for fairly obvious reasons related to big government.

Health care - What health care would they recieve under the current system. Implementation of national health care? That will never happen in the U.S.
As a legal immigrant they would get all the benefits of legal immigrants, which aren't a whole lot to tell the truth. If and when they become tax paying citizens they will get all the benefits of tax paying citizens.

Welfare benefits - Most will be unemployed, which means higher taxes to pay for food on the table. If you think that this won't be a serious problem than you need to take a gander at the taxes citizens paid before and after the reunification of Germany. The sudden influx of East Germans and the building of facilities to manage the overwhelmed welfare and unemployment system has caused a serious imbalance between living costs and taxation.
They certainly have no difficulty finding jobs now. Being legal immigrants will only make it easier for them. You're comparing the influx of a relatively small number of people (several million into a country of over 300 million) to the influx of one entire nation into another. Thats hardly a valid comparision.

Education - How many of those migrants will speak English well enough to understand what teachers are trying to say. Will students be able to scholastically integrate on a massive scale.

Language - The English language is already under attack in the U.S., many who don't speak fluently want English off the list as the official language of America.
They're children understand English remarkably well, some speak it as a first language. And these kids aren't stupid either, just because you don't understand what someone is saying doesn't mean they're stupid. They are just as smart as the average American kid, the only significant difference is that the child of an immigrant will most likely work much harder. The adults who remain in the US (many will return to Mexico after a few years) will also learn English, albeit with more difficulty. Don't think they're trying to impose their language upon you, they're not, but it takes more than a day to learn English.

Oh yeah, and English is not and has never been the official language of the US.

Integration - In Europe integration is a massive problem. Countries such as Germany, France and Sweeden have some of the largest immigrant populations and are suffering as a result of unwillingness on the immigrants side to integrate with the host country.
Immigrants of the past have integrated without problems. The exact same will be the case here.


Wow, thats a lot of [I]really old arguements...

[whano123]

Lets just secure the damn border first. Then when thats finished and the flood of people accross the border is stopped, lets have the debate on what we should do with the folks already here. Okay?

[eLDiablo]

The better question is "Why is it right to enforce them?" Just as a suspect is innocent until proven guilty, an act should be legal until proven harmful, and only then made illegal. Immigration has not and never will harm the US in any way shape and form, it will only ever make it a better place in the long run.



For the last time, its how they immigrate, not the fact that they do.

[berlin88]

In Bold are all arguements that have been used over the past 150 years against the Irish/Germans/Poles/Italians/Jews/Chinese/.
So one illegal immigrant murdered a police officer. Sadly these things happen quite often at the hands of legal citizens. Illegal immigrants are no more likely to commit crimes (other than immigrating illegally) than other citizens.
[The general arguement here is that illegal immigrants commit crime, although its not explicitely stated]
Because they don't have very many illegal immigrants committing crimes.
The more the merrier. We have jobs and space to go around.
They do, but you'ld be surprised how hard it is to learn a new language as an adult, but trust me they learn and surprisingly quickly too. And their children speak English perfectly.
A lot of these illegal immigrants are more American than the average American. They're trying to make a better life for themselves with nothing more than hard work. The American Dream. Thats more than you can say for many citizens.
On the contrary. The US has one of the lowest unemployment rates of the western world. Go compare the numbers with countries in Europe, you'll be quite surprised.
1. We already have IDs. They're called Social Security cards and Driver's Liscenses.
2. Many if not most Republicans oppose state or federal ID cards for fairly obvious reasons related to big government.
As a legal immigrant they would get all the benefits of legal immigrants, which aren't a whole lot to tell the truth. If and when they become tax paying citizens they will get all the benefits of tax paying citizens.
They certainly have no difficulty finding jobs now. Being legal immigrants will only make it easier for them. You're comparing the influx of a relatively small number of people (several million into a country of over 300 million) to the influx of one entire nation into another. Thats hardly a valid comparision.
They're children understand English remarkably well, some speak it as a first language. And these kids aren't stupid either, just because you don't understand what someone is saying doesn't mean they're stupid. They are just as smart as the average American kid, the only significant difference is that the child of an immigrant will most likely work much harder. The adults who remain in the US (many will return to Mexico after a few years) will also learn English, albeit with more difficulty. Don't think they're trying to impose their language upon you, they're not, but it takes more than a day to learn English.
Oh yeah, and English is not and has never been the official language of the US.
Immigrants of the past have integrated without problems. The exact same will be the case here.
Wow, thats a lot of [I]really old arguements...


I have some issues with those statements Derek.

1. IF Spanish speaking immigrants and illegal aliens are not trying to enforece their language on us, then why does the government require employers to have signs posted in Spanish? or require that government service providers speak Spanish (or have employees who do)? I don't see any laws that say McDonalds has to post a sign in English, but they have laws stating they must do so for Spanish.


2. Immigrants who came here from Europe in the 19th/ 20th century or even from China/ Japan did so legally, versus comming here illegally.


3. When said people came here, it was either you mix in and adapt yourselves to the dominant American culture, or you were left out and treated like a 2nd class citizen.

We have all these rules relating to the use of Spanish in the workplace/ government, and having to post signs/ rules/ regulations in Spanish, but the government never did that for any of the German, French or Finnish immigrants. They never had anything written in a language other than English.

The reason past immigration seemed to be easy, was because there were only two choices, adapt to the dominant culture of else. However, there were a lot of problems between the people already here and the new immigrants, such as gang violence and political squabbling.

Comparing the issues faced by past immigrants to those faced by current immigrants doesn't work. Today, its more like adapt American culture to the immigrant culture instead of the opposite.

Just look at all the laws we have passed to "protect" the cultural values and ideals of the immigrants coming from Islamic and Latin American countries. Now, instead of accepting that they must assimilate into American culture, immigrants seem to think they can keep their old culture and create a mini Mexico or Pakistan within the USA.


4. When I mentioned the Houston Police officer, I was using that as an example of sanctuary cities that ignore crimes comitted by illegals, even after they arrest them.

If they don't know about the crime thats one thing, but when you arrest a guy for child molestation or killing a cop and then release them simply because they were an illegal, its absurd. The guy I referenced was arrested and found guilty of a crime, but instead of going to jail was released back into the general population to potentially do more crimes.

I am not in any means saying they should go out and specifically target illegals who commit crimes, but they should at least make sure justice is served when they do catch one.

Think of what the people in your city would say, if the cops arrested a guy for child molestation, and then instead of sending him to jail simply released him back onto the street, knowing it might happen again.


5. If the immigrants are more American than everyone else, why do they insist upon waving the flags of foreign countries when they have their marches/ protests? When they had the 2006 portests/ marches, half the people waving flags were waving Mexican flags.

Lastly, why don't they emphasize the need to use English, instead of trying to get the government to use Spanish as an alternative for those who don't speak English?

[NuclearDreams]

Derek, your answers are not in touch with reality. You seem to suppress real life occurences with wishful thinking. You refuse to look at examples that are already occurring worldwide. Illegal immigration is not unique to the U.S., it is a huge problem in Europe as well. Some countries in Europe have tried what you suggested already, now they are trying to reverse their decisions because of the damage it is causing to their society.

If you want a prime example of liberal immigration policies gone wrong than take a good look at Sweden.

[Derek]

Hundred years old arguements still in Bold.

1. IF Spanish speaking immigrants and illegal aliens are not trying to enforece their language on us, then why does the government require employers to have signs posted in Spanish? or require that government service providers speak Spanish (or have employees who do)? I don't see any laws that say McDonalds has to post a sign in English, but they have laws stating they must do so for Spanish.
The government requires no such thing of businesses, those are all store policies. In past waves of immigration stores did the same thing. If a potential customer can't read your signs, you've lost a customer, so the stores have in the past and will continue in the future to have their signs in multiple languages, of their own volition. The government follows the same logic with its own services, except instead of losing customers they get people who don't understand what the government is trying to tell them. Its a simple matter of communication, if you want someone to hear what you have to say, you have to say it in a language that they understand, but no one is forcing you to speak Spanish.

2. Immigrants who came here from Europe in the 19th/ 20th century or even from China/ Japan did so legally, versus comming here illegally.
Many of them came here illegally too, especially the Chinese (it was for many years all but impossible to immigrate from China to the US legally). The only reason there wasn't as much illegal immigration in the past is that its harder to sneak over on a boat, but the legality of the immigration is irrelevant, as no immigration should be illegal in the first place.

3. When said people came here, it was either you mix in and adapt yourselves to the dominant American culture, or you were left out and treated like a 2nd class citizen.
Actually they were treated like 2nd class citizens no matter what. Adapting to American culture did jack**** to help them, and in turn they didn't try to assimilate. But they were assimilated anyways, because thats how America is. It wasn't founded by immigrants accepting America, it was founded by Americans accepting immgrants.

We have all these rules relating to the use of Spanish in the workplace/ government, and having to post signs/ rules/ regulations in Spanish, but the government never did that for any of the German, French or Finnish immigrants. They never had anything written in a language other than English.
Once again, signs were posted in many languages in the past. In fact, it was much worse then because you had immigrants coming from all over Europe speaking half a dozen languages and if you wanted those people to buy at your store or bar or work at your company, you better have signs in every one of those languages. Now its much easier, you have them coming from one place speaking one language, and thats all you need.

The reason past immigration seemed to be easy, was because there were only two choices, adapt to the dominant culture of else. However, there were a lot of problems between the people already here and the new immigrants, such as gang violence and political squabbling.

Comparing the issues faced by past immigrants to those faced by current immigrants doesn't work. Today, its more like adapt American culture to the immigrant culture instead of the opposite.
Again, this was never the case. The history of US immigration is not the sugar-coated story you've learned. These immigrants came to American with their own ways of life, and they were hated. They stuck on to their ways of life, and continued to be hated. But eventually no one could tell the difference between their way of life and the "American" way of life, and people forgot that they hated them, but they never changed. Why do you think we celebrate St. Patrick's day? The Irish brought it over and never stopped celebrating it. Why do we drink so much beer? The Germans brought it over and never stopped drinking it. Why do we have pasta? The Italians brough it over. These are things that were once all foreign to the US (well, beer wasn't, but the Germans still completely changed American beer), but the immigrants who brought these and many more traditions over never adapted to "American" culture, these things just became a part of "American" culture.

Just look at all the laws we have passed to "protect" the cultural values and ideals of the immigrants coming from Islamic and Latin American countries. Now, instead of accepting that they must assimilate into American culture, immigrants seem to think they can keep their old culture and create a mini Mexico or Pakistan within the USA.
Care to name any laws? Nothing is protecting these people, not laws at least. These people form communities like this beause they are similar people, and thats what similar people do. But again,this is nothing new. In the past we've had Chinatowns, Little Italys, Little Polands, nothing is different now, we just call them "Little Mexicos" instead.

4. When I mentioned the Houston Police officer, I was using that as an example of sanctuary cities that ignore crimes comitted by illegals, even after they arrest them.
If they don't know about the crime thats one thing, but when you arrest a guy for child molestation or killing a cop and then release them simply because they were an illegal, its absurd. The guy I referenced was arrested and found guilty of a crime, but instead of going to jail was released back into the general population to potentially do more crimes.
I am not in any means saying they should go out and specifically target illegals who commit crimes, but they should at least make sure justice is served when they do catch one.
Think of what the people in your city would say, if the cops arrested a guy for child molestation, and then instead of sending him to jail simply released him back onto the street, knowing it might happen again.
This has nothing to do with immigration, thats about enforcing child molestation and murder laws. Completely irrelevent.

5. If the immigrants are more American than everyone else, why do they insist upon waving the flags of foreign countries when they have their marches/ protests? When they had the 2006 portests/ marches, half the people waving flags were waving Mexican flags.
Lastly, why don't they emphasize the need to use English, instead of trying to get the government to use Spanish as an alternative for those who don't speak English?
Because being American is not about waving a flag or speaking a language. Its about an outlook on life. That no matter how low your condition may be, in America you can bring yourself up through your own hard work. That you have the right to be who you want to be and do what you want to do and no one can tell you otherwise. This is why immigrant have come and will always come to America, and thats why their American.

Derek, your answers are not in touch with reality.
You've not lived in the US for years and I'm out of touch with reality? Atleast try to forumlate an arguement next time. As an outside it seems to me that the problem with Europe is that they don't have the long tradition of immigration that the US does. They looked down on the US in the fifties and sixties when we were having problems with Civil Right, but now that they're finally having to deal with people who are different from themselves, their innate racism is showing through. I'm not saying that Europeans are a bunch of people in white sheets, but everyone is born with a degree of racism in them, America has learned how to deal with it through centuries of struggle, Europe has only ever dealt with it through wars. But now that its a problem that can't be fought outside their borders, they're going to have to learn how to be tolerant in the face of people who are completely different from them. I recommend that they take a page from American History and learn that the only way their problems will be solved is if they accept the people coming in. So French/German/whatever culture may be different in fifty years because of it, but it will be better.


You really should both read The Jungle, its about a lot more than killing cows. It'll give you some remarkable in sight into the plight of immigrants a hundred years ago, and maybe if you give it some thought, you'll learn something about the plight of immigrants today.

[NuclearDreams]

You've not lived in the US for years...

Just to clear something up before I go on. I am an American and my loyalties are hers. You have tried to turn this debate around and make yourself look like the one who is defending the U.S. I am against opening the borders and letting an uncontrolled amount of migrants cross into American territory. In modern times that would be self destructive. Again, take notice of what is already happening to some European countries who have very liberal immigration laws. They have realized their mistakes and are rushing to turn over the laws passed so as to control the flow of migrants.

...it seems to me that the problem with Europe is that they don't have the long tradition of immigration that the US does.

Read a little more history.

...but now that they're finally having to deal with people who are different from themselves, their innate racism is showing through.

Because a country desires to control the migration of foreigners at it's borders does not make them racists. You are beginning to sound like a free-for-all libertarian with a protectionist phobia.

...but everyone is born with a degree of racism in them, America has learned how to deal with it through centuries of struggle...

America has come to grips with racism and racial divisions? Bwahahahahahaha. Surely you jest.

...they're going to have to learn how to be tolerant in the face of people who are completely different from them. I recommend that they take a page from American History and learn that the only way their problems will be solved is if they accept the people coming in.

I think there is no comparison to the tolerence that some European countries have for immigration. In fact they are probably guilty of being too tolerent. If the U.S. were to inact the same immigration laws of Sweden, Germany, Spain and France then you would taste your longed for fruits of a racial Utopia. But you are very short sighted Derek and you should be careful for what you wish for. You can make all the statements here that you want, but your words are not those of experience, they're just words of someone very young longing for a Utopia that will never exist.

[Derek]

your words are not those of experience, they're just words of someone very young longing for a Utopia that will never exist.
No, my words are those of someone who knows history and does not wish to repeat it. You see there is one more bit of history about immigration that I've not mentioned yet: The nativists always lose.

And would you care to give any citations of the problems that resulted from these "too tolerant" immigration laws? You've only said that there has been a backlash, thats understandable in a population that has not learned to cope with innate racism when they encounter a large number of different people, but you have not actually mentioned any of the problems.

[NuclearDreams]

Well I mentioned some of the more obvious problems at the end of post #22. I could put together a more defined list but I'll leave the research up to you. Use Google, I'm confident that your scholastic skills will guide you well.

[Derek]

All those are basically related to racism, and shuttering up a country is not a solution to racism. And since you made the arguement, its your responsibility to provide a source.

[NuclearDreams]

The sources are there Derek, you know where to find them. I don't feel obligated to you to provide materials that are easily accessible to everyone. My arguement stands, it's up to you to prove me wrong.

Some experience and opinion.

In 1996 my wife, my three children and I moved back to the United States. We were planning on staying permanently and began to make plans for our future there. I attended night classes at a college in an effort to finish my degree. Before we arrived in the States my wife recieved a visa from the Consulat in Frankfurt allowing her to stay for one year. That year came to an end and the immigration department refused to extend her visa. My wife is German, my kids have American birth certificates and U.S. passports but still my wife was refused an extension, even though she is the mother of American children. When the year was over we had to pack our things and return to Germany. If anyone has a reason to want to do away with immigration laws, it would be me. But I am not blind, the problem of immigration just doesn't only revolve around me and my family. There's much more to it.

In order to achieve what you want, a complete open and accessable America, the U.S. will have to change drastically. To be frank, that isn't going to happen in your life time.

[Derek]

It wouldn't have to change at all. The only thing that would be different is that all the illlegal immigrants we have now would be legal. Thats really nothing.

The sources are there Derek, you know where to find them. I don't feel obligated to you to provide materials that are easily accessible to everyone. My arguement stands, it's up to you to prove me wrong.
Thats just an excuse for laziness. In an arguement if you make an assertion its your responsibility to back it up with sources, not your opponents. If you can't provide sources when I request them, you shouldn't make the assertion.

[gho$tface]

I also live in North Carolina like Derek and even though I have only lived here about four years, I've seen the illegal immigrant population skyrocket in that amount of time.
I'm all for people wanting to come here for a better life and oppurtunites for their families, but not the majority that are just sponging off our tax dollars. If you go to an emergency room for instance you will see the problem. They bring their kids in with runny noses and get a bill that they don't have to pay. The hospital then has to absorb the cost which in turn down the road makes my insurance payments go up. The city complains that our state government will not allow enough money for roads and such but the illegals are using these things but are not not contributing taxwise.
Personally I really didn't care until this past January. My total payments to the IRS was over $3000. There is a hispanic couple that live downstairs and the husband is in construction who has about 10 working for him. Now my neighbors drive a nice big Yukon Denali would they be able to afford that if all his employees were legit?
Now most of the people who live in my apartment complex are Hispanic. I'll say one thing for them that they are hard workers, that do go to work everyday and take care of their families. As for the statement that they are doing the jobs that Americans won't do I say tax them and see how far that $5-$6 dollars an hour goes.
Sorry for the rant. :wave:

[NuclearDreams]

Thats just an excuse for laziness. In an arguement if you make an assertion its your responsibility to back it up with sources, not your opponents. If you can't provide sources when I request them, you shouldn't make the assertion.

This is getting retarted.

It's your assertion that I'm wrong...so prove it. If a police officer makes an accusation that I stole something then he has to prove the accusation is true. You accuse me of being wrong..so prove it.

http://www.expatica.com/actual/article.asp?subchannel_id=58&story_id=33962

BRUSSELS, Oct 26, 2006 (AFP) - The wave of riots which swept across France a year ago has rocked the international image of the land of "liberty, equality and fraternity" and held a mirror up to integration problems elsewhere in the world, analysts say.
Friday marks the one-year anniversary of the start of three weeks of rioting in suburbs across France, sparked by the accidental deaths of two teenagers who hid from police in an electrical sub-station in the poor, immigrant Paris suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois.
The story became a top international news story, as television viewers around the world watched pictures of burning cars and schools, dramatic evidence of the failure of the country's integration efforts.
"The riots were watched with great interest," recalled Arnauld Miguet of the London School of Economics.
"The British considered that the French model had failed in a way but at the same time it wasn't all negative as there were plenty of things to learn," he told AFP.
They applied some policies themselves to try to become more integrationist. For example, becoming a British national now requires a test to make sure the newcomer can speak English, a move against ghettoisation.
"The British say, as do many others, that there is a crisis in France and that things were going to come to a head at some time or other. They confront the same thing in their communities, in their ghettos."
For Italian centre-left senator Andrea Manzella the French riots revealed a "social fragility".
In Italy, where immigration is a recent phenomenon, "we took France as an example of success in that area," she said.
"It has lost that prestige," in the eyes of Italians, "but we understand that it is criss-crossed with deep social and ethnic divisions".
Belgium was "concerned and horrified" at the situation in neighbouring France, says University of Liege philosophy professor Edouard Delruelle.
"The no-go zones, this type of incipient civil war, the de facto ghettos... create an image seen with a certain amount of fear," said Delruelle, a former Belgian rapporteur on intercultural dialogue.
There were one or two cars torched in Belgium during the French riots, but the problem didn't spread.
"Of course there are problems in Belgium, like the rise of the extreme right, but also a strong rejection of the security policies incarnated by (French Interior Minister Nicolas) Sarkozy," who famously described the young French rioters as "rabble".
"I think that the crisis in the suburbs was terrible for France's image. Not so much in Belgium, because we are very near and we know that the country wasn't consumed by fire and blood, but undoubtedly in more distant countries".
Further afield, US national radio talk-show host Glenn Beck sees Europe, and America, in denial over a suburban "civil war".
"The Muslim extremists who have been lying in wait in Europe will rise up and wage war. It's on the verge already. In fact, in France the interior ministry has said that nearly 2,500 police officers have been wounded this year alone," he said over the weekend.
"Europe is in full denial mode and so are we. A war is already going on, but it's a silent war that nobody wants to deal with," he added.
Across the former iron curtain, Fyodor Lukianov, chief editor at the "Russia in Global Politics" review, said parallels were drawn between what happened in the French suburbs "and what could happen in Russia if we don't seriously face up to our own problems of integration".
In Russia, unlike France, a need is still seen to limit immigration and insist on the assimilation of immigrants, he argued.
This tendency has grown in recent months with anti-Caucasian riots in the the northern Kondopoga area and by an anti-Georgian campaign in Moscow.
"But we must not forget that building a mono-national society in a multi-national country is very dangerous," he warned.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_issues_in_Germany

Immigration continues to be a concern of both economic and social importance. Germany has always been and still is a society with a considerable rate of immigration. Together with the enactment of a new set of immigration laws, integration of migrants has become a main focus of official federal policy. By virtue of language courses and courses on culture, politics, and society, which are largely state-financed, integration of new migrants is regulated country-wide; in some specified cases, participation in such courses is compulsory. Furthermore, the new law provides for fewer formalities and more options for highly skilled third-country nationals to enter the country for working there; citizens of European Union member states generally enjoy the right to abode and work in Germany, thus, their stay is not regulated. At the same time, with a view to security threats by international terrorism, expulsion of foreign hate-mongers and suspective terrorists in Germany has been made easier. As a result of enhanced security measures, immigrants (especially those from Muslim and African countries) may face police inquiries (such as requests for identification), which some voices regard as undue. New immigrants face prejudices and problems integrating with the native population and often segment into separate communities.[8]. Higher rates of delinquency and more general integration problems persist amongst some migrant groups. Notwithstanding police operations focusing on this matter, migrants may still be subject to racist assaults mainly in rural areas or small towns in former East Germany. This being said, such problems are not unique to Germany and the incidence of the more severe of these problems are relatively rare in perspective. Some German states (which are responsible for education affairs) have banned Muslim teachers from wearing headscarves in class, generally by prohibiting the use of all religious symbols by teachers; this issue is being intensively discussed in the general public. Unlike France, German states have not extended this ban to pupils. German political backlash due to integration with Europe is resulting in new laws seeking to equalize the pay of eastern European workers (such as those from Poland and the Czech Republic) in an effort to curb the advantages to their hire. Alleged and real competition of "cheap" labour force mainly from Eastern Europe is an issue which right and far-right political groups - in some areas with some success - try to use to promote nationalist approaches in immigration policy. However, during the last decades, no far-right movement has been able to gain enough support to win seats in federal elections or to play any important role in politics on the federal level.

http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20031028-083517-4718r.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4655240.stm

These are just a few examples of dozens to be found. Opening borders will not make problems go away it will increase them. Integration is an illegal immigrants greatest challenge, which is inflamed by the fact that the majority of the host population will not welcome them.

[Derek]

It's your assertion that I'm wrong...so prove it. If a police officer makes an accusation that I stole something then he has to prove the accusation is true. You accuse me of being wrong..so prove it.
You're the one making a claim (that certain European countries have suffered as a result of tolerant immigration laws), and the claimant has the burden of proof. You can't expect me to look for evidence to support your claim, thats your job. Now you haven't made an arguement in the last three of your posts, so if you're not going to argue and aren't going to provide your own evidence then just stop posting in the thread.

And again opening the borders to all out migration and legalizing those that came in illegally will not improve anything inside the U.S...now prove me wrong.
History proves you wrong. Immigration has never harmed America, and there is no logical reason to think that it will in the future.

I also live in North Carolina like Derek and even though I have only lived here about four years, I've seen the illegal immigrant population skyrocket in that amount of time.
I'm all for people wanting to come here for a better life and oppurtunites for their families, but not the majority that are just sponging off our tax dollars. If you go to an emergency room for instance you will see the problem. They bring their kids in with runny noses and get a bill that they don't have to pay. The hospital then has to absorb the cost which in turn down the road makes my insurance payments go up. The city complains that our state government will not allow enough money for roads and such but the illegals are using these things but are not not contributing taxwise.
Personally I really didn't care until this past January. My total payments to the IRS was over $3000. There is a hispanic couple that live downstairs and the husband is in construction who has about 10 working for him. Now my neighbors drive a nice big Yukon Denali would they be able to afford that if all his employees were legit?
Now most of the people who live in my apartment complex are Hispanic. I'll say one thing for them that they are hard workers, that do go to work everyday and take care of their families. As for the statement that they are doing the jobs that Americans won't do I say tax them and see how far that $5-$6 dollars an hour goes.
Keep in mind that if all immigrants were legal they would be subject to minimum wage laws and such. Also, immigrants to the US don't recieve social services until they have been a permanent resident for many years.

[NuclearDreams]

Derek, your age is starting to show...I think you are the one that needs to stop posting in this thread. I'm finished with this debate anyway, I've wasted enough time arguing with someone who has next to no real life experience in the matters discussed.

[hissingnewt]

Derek, legalizing all of the illegal immigrants is not the way to handle this. Neither is deporting them. They shoudl make it slightly easier for people to apply for a green card, but not so easy anybody can get one. They should at least be able to understand a bit of english and should have a decent job in their home country. Decent as in not minimum wage in that country.

[[Lazer]Tank]

No matter if you are for or against the immigration, there is one thing for certain. Open borders are a danger to a nation's security. In this era, a open border is a dream come true for those who wage unconventional warfare.

[Soviet779]

In 50-100 years time replace them with robots and kick them the hell out. This problem will solve itsself.

[hissingnewt]

In 50-100 years time replace them with robots and kick them the hell out. This problem will solve itsself.

Most of us will probably be dead by the end of that timespan though.

[Thinnet]

Whatever, even though I live here in Canada and we don't have much of an illegal-immigration problem, i'm still gonna vote for the next nationalist party that shows up.
=P Flame me all you want, P.C. n00bs =D