Perfect Balance Mod

[Hayden-G]

I think we should make a mod with just tweaks. No new units or stuff. Just balance changes and such to make the existing game perfect. Using suggestions from the "how will you mod C&C3" thread we could make the existing game perfect. Anyone think its a good idea?

[Derek]

This is what EA is already doing, except they know far more about balance than you do.

[Hayden-G]

probably true.... i just thought i should put the idea out there.

[EliteGi]

These mods come up with every game, but are only successful if you work with groups of experienced players to test it with. If you are dedicated to putting in the hours to tweak and balance and have experienced players to work with, then go for it!

[Warbz17]

I think you sjould leave the balancing to EA, if you want to mod, add new units/buildings into the game. IMO the gameplay is too simple at the moment, it needs an (bound to be 1 cos it will get EA some cash) expansion the make the game more diverse.

[Hayden-G]

I already have a mod in the works, but i also wanted to try to change the current game though. you're right about leaving it to EA.

[hmily444]

Adding new units properly and balancely will make the game be of more fun... But only change the data of original units may not be a bad idea either...:)

[Quadhelix]

We might want to give this more consideration: I have continuously argued that Tiberium is far too valuable in Tiberium Wars, and many claim that infantry is not useful enough, so a mod decreasing Tiberium's value and infantry's cost could be a good idea.

As for balancing being EA's job, I doubt that they are going to make as drastic a change as cutting Tiberium's value in 1/3 (I'm like a broken record on this, aren't I) and a "Perfect Balance Mod" might be a good starting point for a more comprehensive mod.

Also, I would like to point out the prevalence of mods designed to fine tune the balance of Yuri's Revenge, CannisRules: Balance of Power (http://www.cannis.net/cannisrules/) being once such example.

[hogo98]

I think we should make a mod with just tweaks. No new units or stuff. Just balance changes and such to make the existing game perfect. Using suggestions from the "how will you mod C&C3" thread we could make the existing game perfect. Anyone think its a good idea?

Ive also had this planned maybe we can work something out :p

And I know this thread is a few days old

[Avapodnaught]

We might want to give this more consideration: I have continuously argued that Tiberium is far too valuable in Tiberium Wars, and many claim that infantry is not useful enough, so a mod decreasing Tiberium's value and infantry's cost could be a good idea.

As for balancing being EA's job, I doubt that they are going to make as drastic a change as cutting Tiberium's value in 1/3 (I'm like a broken record on this, aren't I) and a "Perfect Balance Mod" might be a good starting point for a more comprehensive mod.

Also, I would like to point out the prevalence of mods designed to fine tune the balance of Yuri's Revenge, CannisRules: Balance of Power (http://www.cannis.net/cannisrules/) being once such example.
Which is y ea should be left to this, tiberium isnt too much, its the right amount for the state of its size, as in the sci fi way, with more resources in it than before, u wouldn't want to get low cash value for the biggest resource on the planet (the harvesters r bigger!!!), but as it is a resource, sending infantry thru it hurt them, or in one case, heal htem, u can't balance tiberium, its just tiberium, its how it was meant to be is what im saying

as for infantry, they can be useful for what they do do, but not base attackers, they r supposede to be used for getting control of the map early, and aiding attacks, not in any way different.... the only balance they need would be in fights against eachother, and buzzer spamming will be the latest change for infantry....

Well... id really like to see how drastically less money would work... it probably will lead to some sort of drastic rush that in retrospec will either kill the enemies economy completely, or ruin the player... which isn't what rushing is all about.... rushing being the tactic of nod as of late game weaknesses that tehy don't want exploited against them, so it is easier, more nod like ;)

[Quadhelix]

Which is y ea should be left to this, tiberium isnt too much, its the right amount for the state of its size, as in the sci fi way, with more resources in it than before,"State of it's size"? What does the size of each crystal have to do with how valuable a given volume is? If each crystal it ten times as large, then you can transport only one tenth of the number of crystals as before.


u wouldn't want to get low cash value for the biggest resource on the planet
Define "low" cash value? An M1 Abrams tank costs at least $2,000,000 per tank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams#Development), and can cost as much as $4,000,000. In Tiberian Dawn, you can buy a very similar tank for $800, meaning that one "Tiberian Dollar" is equal to anywhere between $2,500 and $5,000 (Real world American dollars). Trust me, cutting the value of a Harvester load to 1/3 isn't going to remove Tiberium's place as "the biggest resource on the planet."


(the harvesters r bigger!!!), Maybe, but are they over three times bigger? (1 TS Harvester load=$700, 1 TW Harvester load=$2,400)

but as it is a resource, sending infantry thru it hurt them, or in one case, heal htem, u can't balance tiberium, its just tiberium, its how it was meant to be is what im sayingI'm not suggesting that we transform Tiberium into pink flying Dutchmen, all I'm saying is that the value of Tiberium seems to be a little too much.


as for infantry, they can be useful for what they do do, but not base attackers, they r supposede to be used for getting control of the map early, and aiding attacks, not in any way different.... the only balance they need would be in fights against eachother, and buzzer spamming will be the latest change for infantry....Good point.


Well... id really like to see how drastically less money would work...Tiberian Sun.


it probably will lead to some sort of drastic rush that in retrospec will either kill the enemies economy completely, or ruin the player... which isn't what rushing is all about.... rushing being the tactic of nod as of late game weaknesses that tehy don't want exploited against them, so it is easier, more nod like ;) Rushing should be a risk. It's not a strategy game if 2 refineries + 20 light tanks = victory.

[Avapodnaught]

Rushing is a risk, If it doesn't work, u r dead, the problem is, u and other people aren't able to defend against it, but if that alone ins't the problem, its spamming rushes, where a whole team of units keeps coming, and if its crippled u enough, then u will die, if u get all possible holes sealed up and he keeps rushing, sneak somehting in and ruin his operation...

Now, state of size refers to how it has aged from the previous games... It is worth tons because the crystals themself have evolved in a way that they are more valuable, dangerous, useful, and generate more power...

As u know, tanks made with resources that are extracted from tiberium have become cheap because how much tiberium there is, there is no 'supply and demand' crisis, the crystals themselves are an infinite supply of ore for the planet earth, but because of its small population, but if they were to utilize it like the scrin, they would need to live off of it, forever....

Ur number on the tiberium load is wrong.. And besides... Even if the harvesters were bigger, u would think future forces could have more cargo space for the crystals... scrins just sucks it up for instance...

U shouldn't try to change Tiberium becuz of the chronological sense that it came in... it is one with teh sci fi world... and if u want balance, just wait... they might put less tiberium, but I think they shouldn't... tiberium might not be the problem here...

U agreed with my infantry point... good, u seem to understand that infantry themselves shouldn't be able to win any war alone, but vehicles could, infantry only help a little (don't forget our fine soldiers in the vehicles...)

And another thing about rushing... if its strategy u want, strategically position urself so no rush can wil destroy u, and u eventually win... come on, I want to c if instead of complaining that rushing is nub and will win any game, make it so that the rusher is foolish... that is strategy... and if ur not up to it, ur not a real time strategy thinker.... but it would go by faster of course if the game was perfectly balanced, but u will have to wait...

[Quadhelix]

Rushing is a risk, If it doesn't work, u r dead, the problem is, u and other people aren't able to defend against it, but if that alone ins't the problem, its spamming rushes, where a whole team of units keeps coming, and if its crippled u enough, then u will die, if u get all possible holes sealed up and he keeps rushing, sneak somehting in and ruin his operation...Okay. What you haven't told me is how making Tiberium less valuable is going to make it harder to stop rushes.


Now, state of size refers to how it has aged from the previous games... It is worth tons because the crystals themself have evolved in a way that they are more valuable, dangerous, useful, and generate more power... And what, exactly would the catalyst for this supposed change be? Darwinian Evolution takes millions of years to operate and even then, won't necessarily result in something that is "more valuable, dangerous, useful," etc. In fact, Darwinian Evolution would cause Tiberium to get less valuable: the more valuable a crystal of Tiberium, the more likely it is to get mined and thus the less likely it is to produce more crystals with a similar ability to absorb minerals.


As u know, tanks made with resources that are extracted from tiberium have become cheap because how much tiberium there is, there is no 'supply and demand' crisis, the crystals themselves are an infinite supply of ore for the planet earth, but because of its small population, but if they were to utilize it like the scrin, they would need to live off of it, forever.... No, they are not an "infinite supply of ore" because they the take whatever resources are in them from the soil and thus will eventually drain all the resources from the soil and thus any future Tiberium to grow at that site would be valueless. As for the absence of a "supply and demand crisis," that doesn't change the fact that there still has to be the resources to build the tanks inside the Tiberium.

The GDI Harvester is only slightly larger than a Predator tank and yet, somehow, carries enough Tiberium to construct 2 Predator tanks, despite the fact that Tiberium is not a pure substance and most of it is probably thrown away as waste or used for some purpose other than building tanks.


Ur number on the tiberium load is wrong..
According to this thread: http://forums.cncden.com/showthread.php?t=19527, Harvesters can bring back $2,400 per load of green Tiberium! I just now tested the Harvesters in Tiberian Sun, and a single load took my assets from $7,700 to $8,400. For those reading this who hate math, that is $700 per load of green Tiberium. In short, the Harvesters in Tiberium Wars carry over three times the value in Tiberium as their Tiberian Sun counterparts :dismay:. The end result is that it is far too easy in Tiberium Wars to amass huge armies with just a small number of Harvesters (which, until the 1.05 patch, cost less than their Tiberian Sun counterparts).If I'm wrong, what are the correct values for a Harvester load from the two games?


And besides... Even if the harvesters were bigger, u would think future forces could have more cargo space for the crystals... scrins just sucks it up for instance... I'm sorry but you're not making any sense here.


U shouldn't try to change Tiberium becuz of the chronological sense that it came in... it is one with teh sci fi world...I'm sorry, but I really can't understand what you're trying to say here.


U agreed with my infantry point... good, u seem to understand that infantry themselves shouldn't be able to win any war alone, but vehicles could, infantry only help a little (don't forget our fine soldiers in the vehicles...) Vehicles cannot win a war by themselves either.


And another thing about rushing... if its strategy u want, strategically position urself so no rush can wil destroy u, and u eventually win... come on, I want to c if instead of complaining that rushing is nub and will win any game, make it so that the rusher is foolish... that is strategy... and if ur not up to it, ur not a real time strategy thinker.... but it would go by faster of course if the game was perfectly balanced, but u will have to wait... Rushing isn't even the issue at hand, but if you're saying what I think you're saying, then I agree.

[Avapodnaught]

Okay. What you haven't told me is how making Tiberium less valuable is going to make it harder to stop rushes.


And what, exactly would the catalyst for this supposed change be? Darwinian Evolution takes millions of years to operate and even then, won't necessarily result in something that is "more valuable, dangerous, useful," etc. In fact, Darwinian Evolution would cause Tiberium to get less valuable: the more valuable a crystal of Tiberium, the more likely it is to get mined and thus the less likely it is to produce more crystals with a similar ability to absorb minerals.


No, they are not an "infinite supply of ore" because they the take whatever resources are in them from the soil and thus will eventually drain all the resources from the soil and thus any future Tiberium to grow at that site would be valueless. As for the absence of a "supply and demand crisis," that doesn't change the fact that there still has to be the resources to build the tanks inside the Tiberium.

The GDI Harvester is only slightly larger than a Predator tank and yet, somehow, carries enough Tiberium to construct 2 Predator tanks, despite the fact that Tiberium is not a pure substance and most of it is probably thrown away as waste or used for some purpose other than building tanks.



If I'm wrong, what are the correct values for a Harvester load from the two games?


I'm sorry but you're not making any sense here.


I'm sorry, but I really can't understand what you're trying to say here.


Vehicles cannot win a war by themselves either.


Rushing isn't even the issue at hand, but if you're saying what I think you're saying, then I agree.
What im saying is about tiberium is u shouldn't change it at all... Rushing is something that u should be able to stop because of the law of building units... U r building units and while they are attacking ur base u get units from ur war factory so the units have to travel less distance... it should be able to put the battle in ur favor, because the army u should already have to defend against the rush and units coming in defeat the rush by default, and if u can't stop it, ITS UR FAULT, NUBS...

Tiberium does not have anything to do with evolution on earth, the ore is not of earth, and ur right, once the planet is dry of resources for tiberium... it probably would crumble up and die, but we don't know what will happen... do we? Tiberium makes everything built by tiberium less valuable, but the crystal itself is valuable because of all the natural minerals.. resources... etc inside of it, but as I said, if they were to use it indefinetly, they would turn out like the scrin, seeding... harvesting, and destroying planets...

Again, I said that harvesters are indeed larger, but can carry more tiberium, and mining probably has improved getting the most of the sizable crystals...

The load for the Cnc3 harvester is 2100 pure green tib load, and it take four or three large crystal piles to load it, making the value of the tiberium 700 or 520 per large pile, and double all of that for blue tiberium...

Time of how the crystal has come and how they utilize it as a resource has improved, so has the harvesting, refining, and size of the crystal and the resources within the crystal, if gdi and nod kept going on in time they too, like the scrin, wouldn't need tiberium silos...

Infantry play a smaller role than vehicles do, I think rocket men should be weaker to tank cannons, but pop tanks fast, but in doing so, makes the scrin units, disentigraters, making another imbalance...

U would have to tell me what u think im thinking for a verification on an agreement here...
I think u r just making me explain what ive already said again and again until it is made into a version compatible with u.... and others... but I think as time goes by, I will get that in less tries...

[Quadhelix]

What im saying is about tiberium is u shouldn't change it at all... Rushing is something that u should be able to stop because of the law of building units... U r building units and while they are attacking ur base u get units from ur war factory so the units have to travel less distance... it should be able to put the battle in ur favor, because the army u should already have to defend against the rush and units coming in defeat the rush by default, and if u can't stop it, ITS UR FAULT, NUBS... I am still waiting for you to explain what changing Tiberium's value has to do with changing the difficulty of rushing.


Tiberium does not have anything to do with evolution on earth, the ore is not of earth
My point is that, while you claim that the Tiberium crystals "evolved" to become more valuable, it makes no sense for them to do so. Not only are they drawing their minerals from soil that has been depleted by previous Tiberium growth, but also, the crystals should be less able to absorb what minerals are left. This is because the better a Tiberium crystal is at absorbing minerals from the soil, the more likely that crystal is to be Harvested and thus leave fewer "descendant crystals" than those crystals that are poor at absorbing minerals.


Tiberium makes everything built by tiberium less valuable, but the crystal itself is valuable because of all the natural minerals.. resources... etc inside of it A resource cannot be more valuable than the product produced by refining and shaping said resource. Thing about it. Who in their right mind would be willing to build a tank out of Tiberium if the people buying the tank will pay only 1/2 (or less) the amount of money that you spent on the Tiberium.

More specifically, the cost of a tank would be the sum of the cost of the Tiberium used in making the tank plus the cost of labor plus whatever profit the manufacturing company decides to add to the price.


Again, I said that harvesters are indeed larger, but can carry more tiberium, and mining probably has improved getting the most of the sizable crystals... Actually, if you watch the GDI Harvester in Tiberium Wars, you realize that the Harvester's cargo space has gotten smaller. In the first two Tiberium games, the storage tank took up the entire back half of the Harvester, plus some. In Tiberium Wars, when a GDI Harvester returns to the Refinery, only the four man-sized "vials" on the back are removed.

Because the Nod and Scrin Harvesters carry the same value of Tiberium as the GDI Harvester, they must have the same amount of storage space.


The load for the Cnc3 harvester is 2100 pure green tib load, and it take four or three large crystal piles to load it, making the value of the tiberium 700 or 520 per large pile, and double all of that for blue tiberium...I, immediately before typing this post, ran two tests to determine the size of a Harvester load in the Tiberium Wars Demo. 1. Constructed a Refinery at start of game; I built nothing else; my funds went from the initial $10,000 to $8,000. Waited for Harvester to return; still built nothing. Harvester returned but could not finish deploying its load because I needed Silos. Ended game.

2. Constructed a Refinery at start of game, followed by 2 Silos; I built nothing else; my funds went from the initial $10,000 to $7,000. Waited for Harvester to return; still built nothing. Harvester returned and my funds went from $7,000 to $9,400
In other words, at least in the Demo, one Harvester load is worth $2,400. Also, even were your load-value of $2,100 correct, that is still three times the load-value in Tiberian Sun.


Time of how the crystal has come and how they utilize it as a resource has improved, so has the harvesting, refining, and size of the crystal and the resources within the crystal, if gdi and nod kept going on in time they too, like the scrin, wouldn't need tiberium silos... I think that you're trying to say that GDI and Nod have improved their ability to extract resources from the Tiberium. Maybe, but IIRC, the value of Tiberium did not increase at all in the 30+ years between Tiberian Dawn and Tiberian Sun. And yet, all of the sudden, it more than triples in value in the 20 years between Tiberian Sun and Tiberium Wars.


Infantry play a smaller role than vehicles do Do you mean in real life or in Tiberium Wars. If you mean in Tiberium Wars, then that could be considered by some to be a flaw to be corrected.

If you mean in real life, then keep in mind that a $2,000,000 can be destroyed by a $20,000 RPG. Thus 100 soldiers, each one capable of taking out a tank, can be equipped for the cost of said tank.


I think rocket men should be weaker to tank cannons, but pop tanks fast Think rock, paper, scissors:
$5,000 in Riflemen vs. $5,000 in Battle Tanks: tie
$5,000 in Riflemen vs. $5,000 in Flame Tanks: Flame Tanks win
$5,000 in Riflemen vs. $5,000 in Rocket Men: Riflemen win
$5,000 in Rocket Men vs. $5,000 in Battle Tanks: Rocket Men win
$5,000 in Rocket Men vs. $5,000 in Flame Tanks: tie
$5,000 in Battle Tanks vs. $5,000 in Flame Tanks: Battle Tanks winSince Battle Tanks and Rocket Men are both designed to destroy vehicles, not infantrymen, the one that is an infantryman would have an advantage against the one that is a vehicle. Since Riflemen and Rocket Men are both infantrymen, the one designed to kill infantrymen would have an advantage over the one designed to destroy vehicles.


U would have to tell me what u think im thinking for a verification on an agreement here... I was agreeing with the idea that truly skilled players should be able to counter rushes, rather than complain about what a "n00b-like" tactic it is.