Lion's Daily Blurb - Wed., Thurs., June 27-28

[Lion]

On Wednesday Tony Blair officially resigned as Prime Minister of the UK after serving for a decade. You can read the story HERE (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/B/BRITAIN_BROWN?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=HOME). I had respect for the man, not because he backed the United States in the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, but because he stood by what he believed in, despite the opposition he faced in his own country. His successor, Gordon Brown will now have to deal with the ongoing turmoil in Iraq and Afghanistan, but can call the mess Blair's doing. Same thing will happen in the United States when a new President is elected in 2008. Everything that happens with the war on terror will be blamed on George Bush for at least the next ten years. Many in America now believe that the only thing George Bush did was stir up a hornet's next by declaring war on Iraq, and there is no fix for the current situation. Of course, when we stormed into Baghdad and toppled the monuments of Sadamm Hussein a few years back, Bush was held up as a great liberator by the majority of America. Now they want to burn him at the stake. While I'll admit he's not the brightest light bulb that has held the office, I don't lay blame on him. We've had to deal with these crazies long before Bush came to office, and we'll have to deal with them long after he's retired.

[General Al Ramsey]

Gotta agree with you here LION. Tony Blair stuck his neck out even though the Neville Chamberlin's were all over the Parliament. Bush and Blair will get the blame at least for the next ten years and probably more. These people have declared war on us and they will not go away if we leave Iraq. These Islamic Fascist want to see the destruction of Israel and the west. (which is us) They do not desire peace nor even land for peace. (Gaza)

One way to stop funding these Islamic Fascist is to stop buying oil from these guys. We have got to come up with a new energy source for our own security. I actually read in yesterdays paper that Clinton was accused of not doing enough after the World Trade center bombings and other terrorists attacks around the globe. These Islam Fascist have declared war on long before September 11, 2001. If you want to see the truth that you do not see on the Nightly News go to this website.

http://www.obsessionthemovie.com/?gclid=CK-DqZbV_IwCFRkeYAodVHNEBQ
Very scary stuff!

[Waraddict]

The whole Iraq issue is much too complicated for someone like me to say what was the right and wrong thing to do, I do know however, that people like Blair and Bush would have the resources necessary for making a much better judgement then I could ever make.

But, one thing I know, is that your level of ignorance of world issues is horrifying General Al. First off, Iraq had nothing to do with September 11th, and second, there isn't some kind of unified Islamic force out to get America, hell one of the reasons why Iraq is in such a mess right now is due to divisions within Islam. Get your facts straight before you debate.

[starscream007]

Maybe after Bush leaves office, Bill Clinton will stoped getting blamed for everything but I doubt it.

[Slapper]

But, one thing I know, is that your level of ignorance of world issues is horrifying General Al. First off, Iraq had nothing to do with September 11th, and second, there isn't some kind of unified Islamic force out to get America, hell one of the reasons why Iraq is in such a mess right now is due to divisions within Islam. Get your facts straight before you debate.

Well, your wrong on a few counts there.....

Lets see....

1. Al Qaeda is a unified force of Islamists....

2. So is the Taliban.......

3. So are about 25-28 named minor Islamic Militant Groups in Africa who either associate themselves or align themselves with Al Qaeda or Hezbollah or Hamas or generally use Islam as a calling cry for Jihad against Western and Israeli interests...Or use the Palestinian issue to unify each other against Israel and The West...

4. So is Hezbollah....

5. So is Hamas....

6. Although Iran is not an Arab people, they are Persian....Their Government we know for sure means to harm Israel and the West someday, i mean, not that their Pres has said so openly a thousand times over...Where you been all this time Warr?

See where im going here lad?

The only part you got right was that Iraq and Sept 11th was of no consequence to each other{ that we know of , i mean you said it, Blair and Bush know a hell of a lot more than we do, including me, a Career Soldier who has done multiple Tours in the Middle East}...But.... what you missed was...Now it is aligned with Sept 11th problems, vis a vis, Al Qaeda is now in Iraq, and most other Middle East states arent they. The Civil War issue is also exacerbated by Al Qaeda and that is on purpose as anyone knows by now, to continue to turn Sunni and Shia against each other. And the divisions within Islam are only Sunni and Shia problems in Iraq. it is not going on anywhere else, the very thing that Saddam was able to stop all those years by being meaner and crueler than any of those Militias or Groups. He kept them apart from each other, with him and the Baathists out, what you see is what you get, its called decades of score settling built up and unleashed with the void left by the dearly departed....

So i say to you my friend, before you rip Al a new one, perhaps you better stop being ignorant before You debate anything.

and if you want to debate with me, ill gladly shoot your statement down some more. Ive had a lifetime of dealings in the Middle East..where do you want to start lad? i mean, dont take it personal, but when you call one of the more respected and older and intelligent posters and people on this forum ignorant, expect that us old guys will have something to say about it and perhaps point out your mistaken statements to set the record straight. do your homework yourself before ya call Al ignorant.

[General Al Ramsey]

Thanks Slapper. Like I said this information is not on the Nightly News. Our news channels and politicians have become the Neville Chamberlin's of our time. They suggest that peace can be obtained through "land, or just plain talking with each other". Neville Chamberlin had a piece of paper signed by Hitler saying that Britain would not be attacked by Germany. We know from history what really happened.

I gave the link to the website above, it is a must see for everyone. I have seen the whole documentary that was put together for this DVD. I found it to be a wake up call to the world. You can see in this video just how organized the Islamic Fascist really are. They are training their kids to kill Americans in the name of Allah!

[Slapper]

Just watching what i have seen in part, that DVD is worth watching.

And there is massive unification on Extremist ideals, and they fundamentally agree on 2 of the biggest issues, to a faction.

That being that Israel is to be destroyed and that America is also the cause of the Middle East problems and is the enemy of all Islam...

Debate that, please. Because what you posted Warr is not reality, it could not be farther from the truth to be honest man. Really.

[Lazzars]

Well, your wrong on a few counts there.....

Lets see....

1. Al Qaeda is a unified force of Islamists....

2. So is the Taliban.......

3. So are about 25-28 named minor Islamic Militant Groups in Africa who either associate themselves or align themselves with Al Qaeda or Hezbollah or Hamas or generally use Islam as a calling cry for Jihad against Western and Israeli interests...Or use the Palestinian issue to unify each other against Israel and The West...

4. So is Hezbollah....

5. So is Hamas....

6. Although Iran is not an Arab people, they are Persian....Their Government we know for sure means to harm Israel and the West someday, i mean, not that their Pres has said so openly a thousand times over...Where you been all this time War?

See where im going here lad?

thats still pretty wrong

to say unified is somewhat misleading, though they may be all Muslims does not mean that they are unified with other Muslim groups

these are all separate and rival factions that don't co-operate or work together, they may benefit from each other's actions but they are most defiantly not unified

[Shadi]

General Al ramsy, that video doesn't prove much to me, (the september 11 part, where the woman said she saw the plane hit the world trade center)

Sure, there are videos with people saying they've seen a plane crash into the WTC, but than again, there are videos where you see people, and even the firemen talking about hearing explosions. Both on tape, so what am i supposed to believe? I mean, seriously, this world is going crazy.

To me it's basically, whoever wants to believe america is right, will go with the video you linked us to, and believe in it.

Whoever wants to believe that the arabs are right, will probably stick to the arabs side.

For example look at the video you showed me, showing how the planes crashed into the WTC, than have a look at this site http://www.brasschecktv.com/ under september 11, you'll see people saying the opposite, even in video.

Anyways, hopefully I don't get flamed by anyone, I do want what is right to be done, no doubt. While I might believe something is wrong, other might believe it's right, whatever...

[General Al Ramsey]

Now I know there is propaganda on both sides of this issue. The point I want to make is the source of your information. Whenever you do a research project you must consider your source as either true or false. If it is false you throw it out. If it is true it cannot be changed unless some new information comes along and proves it wrong. Then you still holding on to the truth.

But people want to believe what they want to believe no matter what the facts are, because it appeases everyone. Appeasement will never, ever bring peace. The best peace to be had is unconditional surrender and it happened at the end of World War II.

Anyways, I think if I remember right, the lady who saw the second plane hit she said knew America had been attacked. She is a daughter of a well known terrorist in Egypt. Very credible witness!

[Slapper]

Laz, you guys are not seeing the big picture...

Ill make it simple.

Nasrallah, Leader of Hezbollah, videos available chanting "Death to America, and to Israel" Same thing for all the others....

Iranian Pres, same thing, Hamas, same thing, Sadrists, Osama , same thing, i could go on and on.

They may not all talk to each other, they may not plan and execute together, but they all share a common denominator.

Islam, use of it as Propaganda and twisting it.

Hate of America and its Allies, all of them. Hate of anything non-muslim....

Unless any of you is a Government official or CIA Officer or high Ranking Politician, how can you say , for sure 100 per cent they are not united?

Does Iran not support Hezbollah? Hamas? the Shi'a of Iraq? How many others do they support?

What other Governments do the same? Are you sure about that? 100 per cent positive because you know of these things 1st hand? have you been to Iraq? Israel? anywhere in the Middle East? Pakistan? Afghanistan?

I didnt think so, nothing personal, but you seem to be pretty sure of your statement that i am wrong....i would imagine that you made this opinion largely on your own without really looking into it or seeing any of this 1sthand.

I can safely say i have been there many times , in several of those Countries and for you to tell me im wrong, well, all it shows me is that you have not been there and made your assumptions rather than the physical property of actually seeing what goes on over there.

They are not 1 big group, they are a ragtag collection of Extremists all after a common goal, the destruction of Israel and the domination of the West and Christianity itself.

We cannot put the Iranian Government in this category can we, they are far from from RagTag and they support how many Terrorist Groups?, they support a ton of groups with money, training, safe haven and weapons. We know this already....so to say they are not united in their hatred and want of destruction of said Countries and Religions is wrong.

Its a much bigger thing than the average jo blow citizen can understand and i dont profess to know it all or better yet, to really understand any of it either, but i do know this, they all have a common ground with which they use Religion to commit murder and achieve a means to an end, that being Arab or Persian Domination of the Middle East, politically and militarily speaking.

If those goals do not show a common front, a unified front to try and achieve said goals, then what is?

Again, ill point this out, the Shia and Sunni problem is the ONLY fight between Arabs in Iraq and the other one is between Fatah and Hamas isnt it, in the Palestinian Territories. And all that is about 1 group wanting peace with Israel, the other is bent on its destruction. And any other fights are all about Drugs, Money and Smuggling between clans in Afghanistan etc...

As far as 9/11 goes guys, you have had Top Al Qaeda leaders caught and who have admitted they masterminded the 9/11 attacks and provided their captors with info that brought down other operations and uncovered Terrorist Cells in America and around the world..And you had Osama and Ayman taking credit for that attack numerous times since 9/11 in countless video messages and recordings, not to mention other smaller fish all saying they had a part in it. What other proof anyone needs that Bin Laden was behind it is beyond me....He did it, period.

Im open to debate on this all night if you wish. This is my favorite topic for debate and i have more than the average bears knowledge of that area of the World and it always makes me laugh when armchair experts claim they know what is going on over there when they see it on the news and thats as far as they get.....And i also get a good chuckle out of those same experts who claim it is not a united hate and want of destruction of our way of life. You seem to forget 99 per cent of these Extremists would kill you in 1 blink of an eye for being American and that they would impose the Strict Version of Islam known as " Shar'ia" on this whole planet if they had thier way. No Booze, no Sex, No fun at all, Women subjugated, treated as slaves as well as children....This is also a common denominator. Do some research on Shar'ia and see how many of these non United Countries and Groups want this installed as a planetary way of life.....not united indeed.....right.

As i said, they may not all plan together, a small few of them distrust one another and fight amongst themselves , but at the end of the day, they all hate us and they want to dominate this planet with their twisted ideals. You can be sure each and every one of them wants to see America and its allies driven to their knees and if people like some i see here on this forum continue to ignore and marginalize their strength and determination to achieve those things, someday they might just get their way if some people dont wake up to this growing danger. Some Dems need to especially wake up to these facts....

It starts with us, the people and some of you are blind to this whole problem, thats what a lot of us see. The World is not a friendly rosy place and somewhere, somehow, these Un-United Extremists are planning to hurt you/us, the World, again, you know it and to tell me that isnt so is madness. And to assume that a lot of them are not doing it together, with either financial or weapons or logistics support to each other in certain cases is shortsighted and silly. We already know this is going on. Or at least some of us do.

[General Al Ramsey]

Ok Slapper I know what you are saying because you have been there and seen it with your own eyes. I am saying that we can make a rational decision without being there. Look around the world:

Sudan: Convert to Islam or you die!

Somalia: Convert to Islam or you die.

Lebanon: It is next, the Christians are leaving and Syria will control it (as it does now) Being that it is Hamas' headquarters. These people make no bones about it. Convert to Islam or die.

Indonesia: Convert to Islam or die.

Pakistan: Right now they are deciding to pass a law for a Muslim to convert to being a Christian means death.

I could go on Syria, Iran, even the Philippines. This is a world wide problem not just a US problem.


This is why they are called Islamic Fascist! It is their way or you die.

[Slapper]

Exactly Al, right on the nose, in 1/16 of my words.. :D

Islam by nature is not a Peaceful Religion, there are Moderates, but most of them do not live in the Middle East or near it. They have emigrated to other Countries..

P.S. We missed the Balkans by the way... Same ****, different pile.

[starscream007]

Ok Slapper I know what you are saying because you have been there and seen it with your own eyes. I am saying that we can make a rational decision without being there. Look around the world:

Sudan: Convert to Islam or you die!

Somalia: Convert to Islam or you die.

Lebanon: It is next, the Christians are leaving and Syria will control it (as it does now) Being that it is Hamas' headquarters. These people make no bones about it. Convert to Islam or die.

Indonesia: Convert to Islam or die.

Pakistan: Right now they are deciding to pass a law for a Muslim to convert to being a Christian means death.

I could go on Syria, Iran, even the Philippines. This is a world wide problem not just a US problem.


This is why they are called Islamic Fascist! It is their way or you die.



Leabannon has gotten that extreme yet. Remember the Lebannonize president is a Christian. All religious extremism is disgusting IMO whether its muslim, christian or jewish.

[Slapper]

Leabannon has gotten that extreme yet. Remember the Lebannonize president is a Christian. All religious extremism is disgusting IMO whether its muslim, christian or jewish.

well....i hate to disagree with you there Star, your one of my favorite guys here.

Nasrallah is the Leader of Hezbollah. Israel is a sworn enemy, so is America. I just watched footage of that proof not an hour ago.

The Lebanese Government has survived to this point, only because the U.S and Israel back it and a the U.N, for what that is worth. No other reason. The Christians are a Minority in Lebanon and chances are if push comes to shove, as they think it will soon the way its looking, the Christians will get screwed over.

Syria backs Hezbollah as well, so does Iran. The Lebanese Christians are outnumbered something like a Million Arabs for every 100,000 Christians. That being said though, most Arabs and Christians get along in that Country, the Extremists are a small number, there are many more Moderates than supporters of Hezbollah and dont forget a huge portion of people in Lebanon are Palestinian as well, entire Cities are what they refer to as Palestinian Camps, the ones we have seen battles in for the last month. But that doesnt change the fact the Lebanese people and the Government cannot stop Hezbollah from operating freely within its borders. They are too heavily armed to deal with effectively and the Lebanese know it, Military included.

That is also another situation where Al Qaeda style Extremists have caused violence in those areas, the Lebanese Troops pounded them into submission, which is the only way to deal with such scum, killing most of them in the last little while, the rest of the cowards ran and tried to blend in. The Palestinian people in those camps did not support this little Insurgency and they helped run them out. So that goes to show you the dynamic problems with all the different factions involved and what agendas they follow.

That whole place, i will decribe like this:

You got Clans and Family Alliances, Militias, whose agendas take precedence over everything, add in Historic Battles and Clan feuds, take a pile of Oil money and Drug Lords and Drug Money, add in thousands of weapons and supplies provided by the likes of Iran, Syria, China, America, Russia to name a few. Throw in some Religious Fanatics, add 2 Occupations of 2 of those Countrys by Jews and Christians, a good healthy dose of plain greed and Grandeur delusions of power and self importance. Dont forgot to include the ones who even now are running around in almost every Country over there acting as "Islamic Cops", although there are several names for them, An Islamic "Vice Squad" to assert Shar'ia Law over people who otherwise would go the way of Western Culture and lifestyles. Add Persian defiance of the rest of the World and the promise that they want Israel wiped out and the fact that we know they would love to take advantage of the mess in Iraq to gain bigger control of that area...do not doubt for one second they have not thought about running Iraq over when the Americans leave. They have and still are im sure looking into how it could be done. Then take a bunch crazy Clerics and Mullahs destroying young lives and preaching hate and intolerance, what you got is a ****hole that is called the Middle East, and add in a zillion of the regular everyday folk who want nothing more than a job and means to feed their familys, thats what you got.

Any one of us here, i dare you to figure it all out and come to a conclusion or come up with a solid gameplan to solve all this BS. Good , smart people have spent a lifetime to try and figure this all out and predict things to come. Noone has had any luck in 10,000 years and im sure it wont be any of us who does. Its a ****hole, plain and simple. One only needs to surf the Blogs that U.S Soldiers and others write on at present to see that part and what they think of Arabs and Islam and the Middle East.

Star, i wanted to point out, there are no White Christian Extremists at present or in the last how many hundreds of years running around Suicide Bombing innocents and killing over Religion in recent memory and i been on this earth quite a while now. The Jews are surrounded by a Zillion people who want them all dead, to a person. They are by no means innocent either, as i have seen what they are capable of, but that paranoia and distrust is bred into the Jewish psyche and i dont blame em either.

And yes i have had this discussion and ill reassert now what i did then.

Basques: they are out of the Terrorist business for the most part, they bombed some things a while back, but in Spain, remnants of the old Spanish Empire fight...not about to attack the U.S or its allies are they....

IRA: Out of the killing business now, that shows true by the fact that English Troops just this week left Border posts they have manned for Decades. That fight is over and has been for quite a time. They were fighting an occupation, i cant really blame them either. Different people and circumstances than in Iraq for instance.

And all the rest of the Crazy White people who killed over Religion are long long gone.....It is pretty much the Muslims now. Truth sucks, but it is the truth....

[Waraddict]

Slapper, my God man, do you mean to tell me you thought that I don't believe that there are islamic terrorist organisations? that I believed that every islamic terrorist was by himself?

Dont make an argument for the sake of it, I was referring to the non-existance of a single unified extremist islamic terrorist organisation.

[Slapper]

alright, i digress and apologize, took it the wrong way.

But look at it this way: Is the Iranian Government not a Terrorist Organization to you? Because from where im standing, they are.

Supporting how many different Terrorist Groups? That makes them complicit in them therefore they are indeed a Unified Islamic {not Arab} Terrorist Organization. So is Al Qaeda my man. with people and Cells all over the World now.

There is also Syria who does the same thing, Governments who do not come right out and admit they support these Groups, but dont deny it either and praise thier accomplishments and offer money to Suicide Bombers familys....I guess it all depends on how you look at it. I call it straight as an arrow, they are all after the same goals, death to America, Death to Israel, death to our way of life, Death to personal choice and freedoms. If a group of people think the same way as other groups of people and they talk about it, give money, weapons and vocal support, that makes them all a threat, either together or individually. The last time people ignored warnings about threats from a small Group of Extremists, well, a lot of good people died and America got caught with its collective pants down....They are a real danger and real threat. Period. And in the last 6 years since 9/11 , this sort of group has grown exponentially and now shows its agendas everywhere. There is no place on Earth lately it seems that Islamic Extremists have not touched, emigrated to or exported their BS Religion too, not that i can think of.

[General Al Ramsey]

alright, i digress and apologize, took it the wrong way.

But look at it this way: Is the Iranian Government not a Terrorist Organization to you? Because from where im standing, they are.

Supporting how many different Terrorist Groups? That makes them complicit in them therefore they are indeed a Unified Islamic {not Arab} Terrorist Organization. So is Al Qaeda my man. with people and Cells all over the World now.

There is also Syria who does tghe same thing, Governemts who do not come right out and admit they support these Groups, but dont deny it either and praise thier accomplishments and offer money to Suicide Bombers familys....I guess it all depends on how you look at it. I call it straight.

You won't hear that on the Nightly News! Good night all!:wave:

[Waraddict]

alright, i digress and apologize, took it the wrong way.
But look at it this way: Is the Iranian Government not a Terrorist Organization to you? Because from where im standing, they are.
Supporting how many different Terrorist Groups? That makes them complicit in them therefore they are indeed a Unified Islamic {not Arab} Terrorist Organization. So is Al Qaeda my man. with people and Cells all over the World now.
There is also Syria who does tghe same thing, Governemts who do not come right out and admit they support these Groups, but dont deny it either and praise thier accomplishments and offer money to Suicide Bombers familys....I guess it all depends on how you look at it. I call it straight.

Fact is, Terrorism, the whole point of it, is to Terrorise not to completely destroy your enemy. You terrorise them to get them to respond in a way you wanted them to.

As the "easier said then done" saying goes, various organisations can tap into some of the fear Al Qaeda created in the US by simply claiming they're affiliated with them, its a bit of copy-cat criminalism on a terrorism scale.

As for Iran, it looks like you deliberatly set out to associate them as part of a single terrorist organisation. Country-to-country relationships are even more complicated then terrorist organisation to country relationships, they're proper professionals at revealing and concealing information and views to get a specific reaction from other countries, its like a game of poker really, don't expect any country to come out and show you their hand.

To a degree a lot of islamic terrorist organisations DO share one goal though, and that is to make America believe they are unified, and unfortunately I think they're winning so far. In the end, the worst thing you could do with regards to a terrorist enemy is to subscribe to what they want you to be scared about. Sept 11th was a horrific event that damaged America, but never, ever, can America be defeated by Terrorism.

On a side note, I have to apologise as well, I admit I was a bit harsh with General Al, hope we can still have a constructive debate about this.

[Slapper]

oh im sure the Al meister didnt take it too personal, we all agree to disagree at some point dont we... :D

Ya, you said it right though, i agree with ya, but i still say the Iranian Government people are Terrorists, more the Mullahs and Clerics than their Pres, hes just a mouthpiece, he controls jack **** in Iran.

They support them and pat them on the back for killing in the name of Allah and they give money, training and weapons, and safe haven, a simple Redneck like me sees it in black and white Warr, they are complicit therefore they are who they are.

[Waraddict]

oh im sure the Al meister didnt take it too personal, we all agree to disagree at some point dont we... :D
Ya, you said it right though, i agree with ya, but i still say the Iranian Government people are Terrorists, more the Mullahs and Clerics than their Pres, hes just a mouthpiece, he controls jack **** in Iran.
They support them and pat them on the back for killing in the name of Allah and they give money, training and weapons, and safe haven, a simple Redneck like me sees it in black and white Warr, they are complicit therefore they are who they are.

Just a simple opinion, never view the middle east in black and white, otherwise the true complexity of the middle east will either confuse you or destroy your political views, I mean, for instance, at one point Saddam was an ally of western countries. Fact is, the ME is a mess.

And if it comes down to it, whether or not an organisation subscribes to terrorism or not is not a simple black and white issue either, take the history of Ireland for example, don't try to label the Iranian Government as terrorists just to consider them your enemy, did the Nazi's need to be considered Terrorists to make them our enemy? Point being, you can hate the Iranian government whether they can be considered terrorists or not. Politically they can never be considered as a Terrorist organisation anyway, but they can be considered as in collusion with terrorist organisations.

[Slapper]

Yeh well, its all in the wording i guess Warr. I say it one way, you say it another. They are all scumbags where i come from, that is a universal language. Killing innocents, no matter who does it is wrong. My own Countrymen included as they have killed a few lately by mistake in Afghanistan, but FF and Collateral damage happens unfortunately in a War zone.

Cheers man.

[noob]

im not trying to scare anyone but this situation will get so bad one day it will be the beginning of the end for mankind maybe it'll happen in a few centuries or a few milleniums who knows but thats my opinion

[sniperelite7]

For insight into this war on terror read a book called "Imperial Grunts" I found it an eye opener. It talks of the many operations the US conducts around the globe that we never hear about in the media. It shows just how effective the American military can be at nation building, without the global media, and layers of beauracracy hindering it. I believe we will win in Iraq, we have been in similar situations many times before(South America, Africa, other nations in the middle east) and have succeded/are succeding.

[berlin88]

For insight into this war on terror read a book called "Imperial Grunts" I found it an eye opener. It talks of the many operations the US conducts around the globe that we never hear about in the media. It shows just how effective the American military can be at nation building, without the global media, and layers of beauracracy hindering it. I believe we will win in Iraq, we have been in similar situations many times before(South America, Africa, other nations in the middle east) and have succeded/are succeding.

I do not believe Iraq to be a victory, or even close to one. Sure we got rid of an evil dictator, but what has happened since then? We have done nothing to get the Iraqi's to respect or fear us, but have done plenty ot tget them to hate us. The Iraqi's are to busy fighting with each other to work together and make peace.

The arm chair generals/ Liberals in the US congress made sure they were involved in the decision and strategy making. Just look at the various strategies we have tried.

The Iraqi militants and other insuregnt fighters do not fear the US, and have no trouble rallying people to support the war against the USA. We claim to have all these military assets and lots of firepower/ manpower, but when have we used it? All those fancy weapons are sitting around unused, because the arm chair liberals do not condone their use.

A perfect example of arm chair generals playing strategy is the combat patrols in Iraqi cities. What good do those patrols do? Nothing, they simply send poorly armored vehicles and infantry out to be killed by road side bombs and insurgents. Sure they may search a few buildings or kill some insurgents/ militants, but most of them just lay low until the patrol has passed and then go back to work causing trouble.

Furthermore, is the issue of casualties. Left wing liberals are more concerned about casualties than they are about winning. The moment you mention the possible casualty rates, they start complaining. Trying to avoid civilian casualties is impossible, since its a war, by the arm chair generals don't understand that. It was a lot simpler back in the 19th/ early 20th century when congress and the president let the military commanders do their job.





How do we achieve success? (possible ideas below)


1. We put the mission first and casualties second.

2. Kill or be killed, make sure the people understand we mean business, and that we will not tolerate them making trouble.

3. Use whatever startegy/ assets necessary to win. If we are not 100% comitted, then don't start the fight. Strike fear into the hearts of the enemy and attack them relentlessly. If the field commanders need more funding, manpower or resources, give them what they need.

4. You can either have a long battle with very high casualties and eventual defeat, or a short and quick battle with possible victory. The longer it lasts, the more casualties you will have, so get it over with as quickly as possible.

5. Believe in the cause and support it 100%. The first step is believing that you can win. Adopting the defeatist attitude of many lift wing politicians is not good, as you will surely lose. Just because it lasts longer or the casualties are high, does not mean its a failure. (though the Democrats may call it a failure)

6. Let the commanders do their job! How can you expect a commander to win, when politicians with no military background can boss them around and alter their battle plans? Patreus and the other commanders are not selecting the proper startegies, because they have been forced to select only something the liberals in congress would condone.

If the arm chair democrats are going to be the ones dictating strategy, why do we need the military strategists? So the Dems can blame someone else when their plan fails? The least the Dems could do is acknowledge the fact they are running the show and dictating strategy. Notice how the field commanders have connections with congressman and discuss strategy with them?

7. Last but not least, SUPPORT THE TROOPS AND THE CAUSE. How can you support the troops and yet oppose the very war they are fighting?

Ask any Liberal Congressman whether or not they want American to win in Iraq, and they will give some BS answer about supporting the troops, and completely avoid the question. Then they will go out and bash the war. The Democrats do not care if we win or lose, they simply want to avoid taking any blame and gain more votes in the elections.


Thanks for taking the time to read my comments. I left out the comments on radical Islam, because Slapper already discussed it enough and is a far more credible soure than me. I do not claim to be an expert, but I do consider myself an informed individual.

[amak1131]

berlin, excellent suggestions, but theres a problem: Congress would never do ANY of those. they will have us pull out eventually and watch, it'll come back to haunt us. by either another attack or having us be known as a country that starts stuff and never finishes it.

[Lazzars]

7. Last but not least, SUPPORT THE TROOPS AND THE CAUSE. How can you support the troops and yet oppose the very war they are fighting?

that is just dumb, why does supporting those who fight have to go hand in hand with the reason their fighting? is it not possible to say that you want them safe but you would rather have them home?

[Waraddict]

berlin, a few of the things you suggest is, in my opinion, not only the wrong thing to do with a terrorist enemy but infact the worst thing you could do with a terrorist enemy.

Take the kill or be killed stance, the last thing you want to do is end up shooting the wrong person, its fuel for the terrorist cause. That was the UK's mistake when they tried to deal with Irish resistance with their black and tans.

I do think however, you did make good basic points for achieving military success, but whatever the real solution is to combat terrorism however, I don't think it can be summed up in a few points on a forum to be honest, so debate what you see valid and lets see how things go.

[GoMilton]

What we need to do is build a Disneyland over there. This does several things...

1. Shows them what we Americans are all about; giant mice, princesses and little dwarfs.

2. Takes their money from them. $60 to get in. $200 for food. $25 for souvenir family picture. (Good bye terrorist money)

3. If they like it so much, they'll be there all the time instead of bombing, shooting, planning to kill or planning to bomb us.

Now there is the remote possibility that they would boycott Disneyland if we built one there, at that point there is no hope for them so just nuke 'em.

[HawkEye1102002]

The whole Iraq issue is much too complicated for someone like me to say what was the right and wrong thing to do, I do know however, that people like Blair and Bush would have the resources necessary for making a much better judgement then I could ever make.

I couldn't have put it better myself, while I will stand by the argument of getting rid of Saddam Hussain was, down to basics the right thing to do - Bush and Blair could have made better judgements and not immedietly putting in a civilian government in Iraq, they should have allowed the generals to clense and resotre order in Iraq - this would not have been a popular idea but I think it would have worked better than what has been done.
But yeh - I am board of seeing socialist/liberal leaning students in university thinking they can do a much better job than Bush and Blair - and I do agree with Lion, Blair stuck to his guns even though it was not the popular thing to do, like I do admier Bush for not backstabbing his friends unlike what FDR and Truman did to us in Britain over the Pacific - but don't take this as me "likeing" them, I do not like them at all.


Iraq had nothing to do with September 11th, and second, there isn't some kind of unified Islamic force out to get America, hell one of the reasons why Iraq is in such a mess right now is due to divisions within Islam.

Quoted for truth. Islam in the United Kingdom "seems" to be united with various organisations such as the MCB (who themselves cannot be trusted) but in actual fact, Shi'te and Sunnys hate each other - this is especially evidence in the Middle-East

Another form of Islam that gets no mention are the Ahmadis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadi)

Back to Blair leaving and Brown entering, it will come down to this,: New faces - same BS, and the BS about environmentalism will be worse under Brown who knows NOTHING ELSE other than CO2

[Slapper]

Berlin, the problem with trying to strike fear into the hearts of the enemy in the Middle East is simple:

They are not afraid of your Military or their might and power, and they are Religious Zealots/Fanatics, you cannot simply scare them my man. They are not afraid to die and consider it an honor to do so.

Also, all those expensive toys you refer to that sit there, well, they have no use for them in Guerilla Warfare unless they are planning to level Iraq and kill everyone. Its not an Army on Army fight. Those toys have 0 use.

The Insurgents know that and make sure they dont openly engage Armored Units, they know they cant win that kind of fight against the Americans.

Im still reading posts here that do not recognize there are Unified Islamic Terrorist Groups with members all over the World and even larger Countries supporting them and flaunting it huh ????? If that is not a Unified Terrorist Network, i do not know what is people. I gotta shake my head at this one, i cant see where your coming from.

Iran, Syria and others support Hezbollah, Hamas, and other splinter groups, Al Qaeda and their Networks and splinter groups who have aligned themselves and styled themselves after also constitute a large organized, if not loosely, Terrorist Network....All with common goals.

Ill re-iterate again for you people who've never been to the Middle East....You know only what you read and hear, and that is that. sorry. I wont try and win over anyones opinions about what they think they know, but again, The Sunni and Shia problem is one that is only, and i repeat for the 3rd time, only, in Iraq, open Sectarian fighting...they arent doing this anywhere else....

Sunni and Shia are the Majority and all others pale in numbers, the link, the Ahmadi Muslims, the last poster left for us represents about the same number of Christians in the Middle East. Not many of em at all. They dont count in the grand scheme of things. I have never forgotten about those people, they are just inconsequential as are about 23 or 24 other Religions and people and civilizations that have roots there. We can have a discussion about what Religions, Creeds, Races and dialects of Arabic, Jewish and Christian and Buddhism, Athiests and other Pagan Denominations populated Iraq, even when Saddam was around, and other Middle Eastern Countries anytime you wish, i am well schooled in them and what numbers of the population they represent. To sum it up, the Arabs- and Persians- Sunni and Shia represent 89 or 90 per cent of the Total population of all those Countries the last numbers i saw, i can recheck those tonight. They dominate that whole Region. They are not openly killing each other in Syria, Iran, Saudi, Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, Egypt, Pakistan, Afghanistan..... etc etc etc..Its an Iraqi problem exacerbated by Irans 's influence and Al Qaedas influence and no Saddam to stop them from doing so.

Saddam kept them apart and stopped the very thing you see every day there. Its not rocket science people.....my favorite saying has been used 2 times in this thread alone. Pay attention class... :)

[Ace]

haha slapper you sound like a school teacher, i dunno jack about Gordon brown but i think the truth about the mid east and about co-working terrorist groups lies somewhere i n between, some teams and individuals work togheter and some don't. I heard about some people traveling europe collecting money to fund organisations and sometimes they say its like red cross or something and sometimes they say that its for fighting for iraqi freedom.. :P

i think it would be easier for the us to fight them if it would be like when israel was in the 6 day war. Tanks , planes, soldiers ect..
think of it like this, right now Us is facing off with more or less the GLA stealth general and its tricky to say the least but it would be alot easier if us was facing demolition general or even china tank or infantery general :D
some of the arabs where pissed at us before iraq and afghan war but now they are even more pissed off and they gathered fan clubs that discuss or work more in practical ways to make dammage to us of a :dismay:
what i dont understand is why terrorists use so small numbers in attacks and so, they will never get rid of us presence in iraq in this year :p

i just wish they would make peace and do something more consutrictive like build businesses and work to rebuild iraq to like when say germany rebuilt itself after world war 2.

[HawkEye1102002]

Berlin, the problem with trying to strike fear into the hearts of the enemy in the Middle East is simple:

They are not afraid of your Military or their might and power, and they are Religious Zealots/Fanatics, you cannot simply scare them my man. They are not afraid to die and consider it an honor to do so.

Also, all those expensive toys you refer to that sit there, well, they have no use for them in Guerilla Warfare unless they are planning to level Iraq and kill everyone. Its not an Army on Army fight. Those toys have 0 use.

The Insurgents know that and make sure they dont openly engage Armored Units, they know they cant win that kind of fight against the Americans.


Yes, you cannot scare the Jihadists in Iraq, as they know no fear because they think "At the end of the day, I'll end up with 72 virgins in paridise"

In my honest opinion, the best way to combat terrorists in Iraq is to bring back the flame thrower and to use pig blood soaked bullets and to wash the tanks with pigs blood - let us not forget the exploits of General Pershing in the Phillipines in the early 1900's

I know this is harsh, and most likely unpopular but it will work.
Our medium tanks are the most advanced tanks in the world, but what use it is against gurrilla tactics, you need to bring in David Stirlings regiment, the SAS and use Gatling gun armed Ford Willies jeeps, go and live in the desert, gain some allies, find out where individual terrorists live and kill them in the most brutal fashion ever, use of Gatling guns (My obsession with Gatlings have gotten the better of me)

Im still reading posts here that do not recognize there are Unified Islamic Terrorist Groups with members all over the World and even larger Countries supporting them and flaunting it huh ????? If that is not a Unified Terrorist Network, i do not know what is people. I gotta shake my head at this one, i cant see where your coming from.


I am still not convinced that there is a united islamic terrorist network, AQ may be the most organised (or the most publicised) but if there was, wouldn't the Shi'ts and the Sunnies be united - they are not united, maybe some are but I doubt it - I remember reading an article about Bush arming Sunnies because they said "We don't like you Americans, but we hate AlQuieda a lot more" - I think we will see a repeat of Alfghanistan where Allied supplied weapons was turned against us.


Saddam kept them apart and stopped the very thing you see every day there. Its not rocket science people.....my favorite saying has been used 2 times in this thread alone. Pay attention class... :)

While this is true, I could turn around and say that Hitler kept the trains running on time and saved the German econamy - after his defeat Germany was split into Zones by the Allies and the Soviets which ended up in two German states (One Liberal Democracy, one Stalinist-Socialist)

Another thing I would like to add that I see many people make this error - there is no war on terror because it is impossible, terror is a tactic, not an enamy, the enamy has made itself clear (The Jihadists, 5th columnists etc), and Bush and Blair has not recognised it for "tollerance" reasons - having a war on terror is like having a war on bombs.

[Slapper]

When Saddam was in power, neither side would dare cross that line dude.
For obvious reasons, his Army and Secret Police would kill you, your family, all of them, extended as well, if that wasnt enough to deter Sunni-Shia infighting, he'd smoke the whole village if it pleased him to get the point across. There was 0 opposition in Iraq from Sunni or Shia.
Remember, Saddam and the Baathists were all Sunni's, Shia's were repressed and subjugated for the most part, no representation in any form of the Iraqi Government. No Shia's would dare kill a Sunni, again, for the same reasons.
He kept them apart. He was meaner and crazier, there is no 2 ways about this topic man, he was what kept them all from killing each other, that is documented and backed up by Iraqi exiles....what you see now , i say once more, is old scores being settled. The Shia's figure its payback time.
As far as there not being any Organized United Islamic Terrorist Group, i will only say this, i strongly disagree and could make many more points and show cross-relationships as examples of how many of them receive support in many different ways from Iran, Syria, North Korea and a host of others. They do work together, some of them and regardless of that, even if the numbers are small, it does not take a big group to do big damage as we saw on 9/11, therefore they represent a clear and present danger to us all.

Somewhere on this planet as we speak , im sure its safe to say they are planning the next Sept 11, this time maybe on a grander scale. Id take that bet anyday for any amount of money.
Look into it.

[CommanderMikeB]

Somewhere on this planet as we speak , im sure its safe to say they are planning the next Sept 11, this time maybe on a grander scale. Id take that bet anyday for any amount of money.
Look into it.

I thought I'd give fair warning to everyone, this isn't a threat, or some sort of scare tactic, simply a heads up to whats happening and whats going to happen (If you knew a bomb was about to go off, would you keep quiet or tell as many people as you could?).

Since the immigration bill was shot down by the house, I'm not certain the order of events will occur in this order, if at all, all I can say is what I know with the facts I've seen so far.

The Idaho Observer has published a 3 Part series starting with their April issue, called "Meet the Scherffs" in which it details genealogical records of George H.W. Bush and the deathbed confessions of Otto Skorzeny, including how its congressionally established fact that Prescott Bush was in business with the Nazis during WWII, how there is a global conspiracy for a New World Order.

Going beyond this 3 part series, there's a ton of information on the web that details inconsistencies and facts of different false flag ops, counter-intel ops, and black ops, for the end purpose of a single authoritarian rule over the planet, all of which is being pulled off because of the way the government is compartmentalized (the "Need to Know" policy hard at work), keeping people who are apart of this plan in the dark, unknowingly helping the NWO carry out their malevolent plot.

The mainstream news doesn't report on any of this, because they're paid not to, they're paid to whitewash and spin current events to propagate the NWO agenda (Fox being the major player in this, why do you think they have a "spin" room).

Going back to the immigration bill for a moment, which is amnesty for illegals, had a key purpose in supplying the man power for our military to carry out the NWO agenda for the next 4-5 years (see: http://www.jbs.org/node/4479), part of it allows the military to enlist illegals.

Once the bill had been passed, within 3-5months there would (or still could) be nuclear device(s) detonated within highly populated areas of the united states, in doing so, it would give Bush full power over the government to maintain "normal operations",(See: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/05/20070509-12.html) in turn, Bush would then declare martial law over all 50 states, suspending the bill of rights "for our safety", suspending the 2008 presidential elections ("to protect us from being attacked at the voting booth!"), instating Internet 2 (removing net neutrality) and then declaring war on Iran, of course.

It is possible the draft could be reinstated.

After defeating Iran and removing Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, attention would probably shift to a different enemy, most likely being claimed as the true enemy behind the nuclear attack, this country would probably be one with a substantial military force, which would give reason to form the North American Union (which technically already exists), in which everyone in North America will be required to have a microchip implanted in their right hand, a biometric device, acting like a finger print, the device can be scanned from a short distance and reveal ALL of that person's information.

The chip is commonly referred to as the "Mark of the Beast", or "666", the chip will be the only way you can Buy, Sell, Travel, and communicate, without it, you will be a terrorist, and labeled as enemy of the state.

They will try and convince us that without this chip, they can not insure our safety. Those who refuse the chip will be sent to.... http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=277826260716604258

In David Rockefellers book Memoirs, page 405, he openly admits having involvement in planning for a world government:

We are grateful to The Washington Post, The New York Times, Time magazine, and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promise of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But the world is now more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The super-national sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national auto-determination practiced in past centuries.


David Rockefeller is a traitor to the United States, his plan for a one world order removes our national sovereignty.

The Bush Family (Scherff family) are also traitors to the United States.

If we sit idle bickering about who is killing who, and why, prepare for the 4th Reich.

You may dismiss all this information if you like, so many others have, but at least do me this favor write this list on your fridge.

-Military Recruitment beefed up
-New 9-11 attack
-Martial law
-No 2008 Pres Election
-War with Iran
-National ID Card
-More War on "terror" (Al CIAda)
-North American Union
-New threat to freedom
-CHIP

Write this down on, post it on your fridge, if these events come to pass seemingly in this order, then it is too late, there is nothing you can do by the time the Chip comes, either give up, or join whats left of the people out there right now fighting for our freedom, and national sovereignty.

You have until roughly 2009-'10 before the chip, you have months left to expose the NWO before another large catastrophe occurs resulting in a massive loss in life. According to the Presidential Directive, the attacks can occur on foreign soil, as long as the U.S. considers them our ally, Bush can declare martial law. Hell, the attack could probably occur in Iraq.


No... No.. Don't listen to me, everything I've said here is a lie, and Lion please don't ban me, I've been coming to CnCDen for all of my CnC needs for at least 3-4 years and will continue to support the site!

~Peace, Love, and Freedom

[GoMilton]

I thought I'd give fair warning to everyone, this isn't a threat, or some sort of scare tactic, simply a heads up to whats happening and whats going to happen (If you knew a bomb was about to go off, would you keep quiet or tell as many people as you could?).

.....

I uhh...well im speechless.

[Slapper]

Ya Commander.

Seen all this stuff already, Alex Jones has a site that you can read all of this.

You can choose to believe it or not, there is im sure, some truth to some of this, but for the most part, i think all of these people are a little nuts tbh.

As far as Bush's family being in collusion with the Nazis, The Bin Laden connection's, all of that, well, thats old news too.

I do have a gut feeling though that something big will happen before the next election, whether that serves Bush's purpose or works against him remains to be seen.

Only time will tell.

[General Al Ramsey]

Good to hear we are still having a lively discussion on terrorism! :tantrum: As for Waraddict you are forgiven, but I will say Commander that is a little far off and it is sort of like a Mike Moore theory. But back to the main subject. Which I think was Blair stepping down. :shifty: I hope and pray that history will remember him as a Prime Minister Blair that stood up to the threat of terrorism around the world. (For all of mankind) Not just our own country but for other countries too, who do not have the resources to hunt these guys down.

Cheerio Tony Blair!:cool:

[CommanderMikeB]

Ya Commander.

Seen all this stuff already, Alex Jones has a site that you can read all of this.

You can choose to believe it or not, there is im sure, some truth to some of this, but for the most part, i think all of these people are a little nuts tbh.

As far as Bush's family being in collusion with the Nazis, The Bin Laden connection's, all of that, well, thats old news too.

I do have a gut feeling though that something big will happen before the next election, whether that serves Bush's purpose or works against him remains to be seen.

Only time will tell.

I don't agree with everything Alex says, but I do listen to his show, its certainly a better alternative right now than hearing about PARIS F'ing Hilton

So if all of this is old news, maybe someone can introduce me to what it is that makes everyone not give a ****.

I can't understand why people dislike Alex, he means well, frankly I wished we had even crazier people around who stood for freedom. Even if they're wrong, at least they're investigating the people with power, the mainstream press has failed us in being political watchdogs.

[Slapper]

I do not doubt his sincerity either and i do not see anything wrong with being a Patriot, which he seems to be and he does ask the hard questions noone in Washington wants to answer, i do see that certain Gov Agencys seem to have a lot to hide. Of that i am certain. I mean hell, 6 years after 9/11 they still wont release any good or useful footage of the plane hitting the Pentagon, even though we know there are 3 Camera Views they refuse to release....I have to ask myself as anyone should, why?...... Theres 0 good reason why they cant now. None.....National Security does not count here, its 6 years later, period, they got something to hide there, dont have to be a genius to see that.

Meh, look what happened today, in London people....now what did i say not 24 hours ago right here.......nuff said there, the proof is in the puddin guys and gals, there are Groups and United ones at that who are out to hurt you...and me, and anyone who is an "Unbeliever".

They are a serious threat, always and in the future, i do not see it getting any better regardless of who is manning the White House. They dont care who it is, its an excuse. Alex is not totally full of ****, i know that. He does rake people over the coals though, he isnt afraid to take em all on. Hes actually funny.

[KrasnyOktyabr]

that is just dumb, why does supporting those who fight have to go hand in hand with the reason their fighting? is it not possible to say that you want them safe but you would rather have them home?

Because telling us you support us but that you don't believe in what we're doing is counter-effective. If you don't think what we're doing is right, then how in the world can you support us? All you're doing is causing us to question why we do what we do, this demoralizes us. Demoralized troops don't fight so well, and tend to get killed in much higher numbers.

Support at home wins wars, but when the people at home either don't see to give a ****, or are actively against the cause we lose.

To me though, saying you support the troops but not the war is kind of a two faced bit. I'd rather have you come out and say that you think soldiers should all die than to see you carry a sign saying NO WAR FOR OIL with a yellow ribbon on the back of your car.

[CommanderMikeB]

To me though, saying you support the troops but not the war is kind of a two faced bit. I'd rather have you come out and say that you think soldiers should all die than to see you carry a sign saying NO WAR FOR OIL with a yellow ribbon on the back of your car.

Wtf?

Sounds like a Bill O'reily / Bush attitude of either you're WITH US, or you're a terrorist!

Yeah, I was born in the United States of America, so was my mom, father, grandfather, grandmother, great great great grandfather/mother, and I don't have a right to protest against a war on a strategy? None of them were terrorists, I'm sure its possible somewhere in my family lineage though that some of them were traitors to not-so-great Britain.

How about, if you support the war against IED's and stupid villagers which are killing our troops at 3 per day that YOU don't support the troops, because you're the one that wants to get them killed, fighting something they can't combat too effectively.

Remember Vietnam? Guerrilla Warfare? I'm sorry but, all the tanks and planes in the world cannot fight something you can't see over 90% of the time. Maybe if our troops were allowed to level the cities and towns, move all of the Iraqi's to holding camps, then slaughter what's left... Hey at least the innocent people would be left alive (mostly), then we could sell a no bid contract to Halliburton to rebuild Iraq. Woohoo, everyone wins! Army gets to use their toys, this war ends a lot sooner, and the yuppies and military industrial complex make a ton of money!

Well, I guess there's some flaws.. like terrorists gaining access into the holding camps, and raping tax payers some more to rebuild a whole nation because we just leveled it. ****ing over the Iraqi's in more than 1 way.

But hey! Its all in the name of freedom man, quit making waves, just shut up and take the MONEY!11