Lion's Weekend Blurb - July 13-15

[Lion]

According to a new US intelligence assessment, Al Qaeda is stepping up it's efforts to sneak operatives into the USA to conduct terrorist operations, and that Al Qaeda is as strong as it was before the attacks on US soil on September 11, 2001. Many peeps in the USA of course blame the Iraq war and claim the only thing we accomplished in Iraq was to stir up a hornet's nest. While this may in part be true, Al Qaeda has been screaming death to USA long before Iraq was ever put into the equation. Some people in the USA believe we should negotiate with Al Qaeda because they represent the people of the Middle East. What Al Qaeda does is throw fear into the 'good' people of the Middle East. There is no room for negotiation, not now, nor anytime in the future. We can't maintain the level of US troops in Iraq forever, and it looks like Iraq will never be able to achieve a stable government on their own. So what does our future hold? My prediction is that Al Qaeda will grow much stronger in the Middle East and other parts of the world. We aren't going to stop this growth. Iran will also help elevate tensions to new highs. They seem to be the main supply line for terrorist groups, and are quite willing to fund terror. What I'm unsure of is what America can do at this point. Question for the weekend blurb...If YOU were in charge of America's future, what steps would YOU take to insure the safety and well being of the people of America?

[Lazzars]

if the heads of the armed forces were fully and unconditionally committed to finding and eliminating the heads of the terrorist organisations without being side tracked by iraq then they would be over and done with within a year.

problem is that not enough time was had originally to find those incharge of Al Qaeda (as right after 9/11 they were in deep hiding in some cave) before we went to Iraq. if we had been after them continually for the last 5 or so years then we wouldn't be facing such a massive problem right now. as it is now we have let their propaganda machine work to the extent of fueling them with reasons to hate the west.

so to answer how i would try to solve this problem i would attempt to cut off the serpent's head and get those who appear to be at the lead of Al Qaeda. though a move like that could no longer solve the problem outright it could certainly turn things around somewhat as nothing works like a little counter propaganda against these types.

[dkg1]

The best things the US can do is: (1) Secure our borders. How do you fight a "war on terror" with wide open borders? (2) Round up and deport all illegals ASAP. (3) Stop meddling in other country's affairs. We have enough domestic problems to keep us busy indefinitely.

[CO Valle]

We can't maintain the level of US troops in Iraq forever, and it looks like Iraq will never be able to achieve a stable government on their own.

Its been just a few years after the war, these things take time, I don't think we'll see a stabilized Iraq before 2015, but it is important to keep presence there, otherwise, the country may turn into another Somalia.

i would attempt to cut off the serpent's head and get those who appear to be at the lead of Al Qaeda. though a move like that could no longer solve the problem outright it could certainly turn things around somewhat as nothing works like a little counter propaganda against these types.

The problem with that is that there will always be a new head, and with such an intense campaing, you're bound to loose many soldiers lifes, but are you (as president) and your people willing to take that risk. Also, since the "war" escalates, you must be ready to take on the consecuences (more and bigger attacks).

Now, what will I do?, well, for such a war (that is not limited by country borders) you have to attack several places, to have many fronts, if you go and attack one target, and later another, by the time you have your 5th target, the 1st one will have been resconstructed, and so on.

I have no idea what will I do, but for starters lets remember what the word WAR means, it ain't pretty, wars cost money (a lot) and human lifes, are you up to it?, of course, sometimes war is something unavoidable, and I think this is one of those times.

----
@ dkg1:
(1) good point
(2) Not every illegal is a threat, but anyway, what about the legal ones?
(3) That one is somewhat true. As the leading country in the world, the US, have certain responsabilities, and you're binded by them, unless, of course, you what another country to be the leading one

[General Kane Nash]

Simply, fall in the isolationism, and then, when the world have been screwed by Al-Qaeda, save the day, just what USA did in WW2, you will see europeans going to your neck and crying to help them defeat the terrorist.

[Korona]

Simply, fall in the isolationism, and then, when the world have been screwed by Al-Qaeda, save the day, just what USA did in WW2, you will see europeans going to your neck and crying to help them defeat the terrorist.
Dr. Seuss had some amusing cartoons from WW2 to do with American isolationism.
i.e http://www.derelictstudios.net/users/korona/soon/10522cs.jpg
I don't think it works like you are suggesting :P

We owe it to the world to undermine the radical minority that thinks it has the right to impose their extreeme worldview on the moderate majority. There needs to be an understanding however that "fighting terrosism" isn't just done with guns and ammo. Not exclusivly or even primarily. It's like trying to fight cancer by just cutting away the tumour each time it grows back. The root cause of terrorism is a dissafected individual prepared to buy into a radical and confused ideology. We need to tackle these two problems at their core. If we took some of the billions spent on defense and instead spent them on developing the economies of the poorest regions of the world, brining them economic prosperity and education, then the hotbeds of fundamentalism would evaproate.
Al Quaida are a radical poliitical movement. Radical politics breeds when the economy collapses. This can be seen throught history.
Removing Osama Bin Ladin would be a (small) blow to Al Quaida but it wont change the reality of poverty. Nor will it help in the arguement against radical anti-western sentiment.
Archaic propaganda like "The Protocols of the Eldars of Zion" is still widely read and beleived in the middle east. Untill problems like this are dealt with, we will be forced to deal with generation after generation brought up to unquestioningly hate Jews/The West.

Ok so I advocate a 3 pronged stratagy:
- Scale back military involvement in Iraq, as is being done (sounds like "Vietnamisation" but hopefully will go a little better this time :P)
- Secondly, identify the areas of the world most economically deprived and massivly increase spending on development in these areas.
This will undermine the appeal of radicalism, help people who most need it, and hopefully buy some good will, which will help with:
- Thirdly, massivly increase spending in overseas education. This includes funding for madrassas and so on. Islam is not about doing violence to people you don't like. It's time Muslims started getting a propper education, rather than radicals lying to them and trying to subvert them into their political causes all the time.

[Mikael Grizzly]

Korona said it all.

Add to this: put on trial all advisors of G.W. Bush that conciously lied to the Congress about the situation overseas, most importantly, Iraq WMD advocates.

Cooperate with the European Union instead of playing the lone sheriff and lowering support for America worldwide. Especially since H&K and Leopard-2 are European.

Repeal the PATRIOT act. Europe didn't need it to stop most terrorist attacks, why would the US need it?

Apologize for mistakes. Seriously.

[General Al Ramsey]

There really isn't a short answer to this. Although it is hard to fight a war on terrorist when there is no official government to go after.

First of all, pulling out of Iraq takes away a strategic stronghold at this point in time. You see Iran is poised to keep investing in its desire to have a nuke. Which me and the rest of the world does not want! So I think we are stuck in Iraq until we have Iran's nuclear power plant offline. Oh sure we could pull out of Iraq and do this but why not have a land base close to the action.

Secondly, Syria, Hezbollah and Hamas are all close by. They have a desire along with Iran to destroy Israel so we would be back in anyway if we pulled out. Strategically we could strike any of these locations from our bases in Iraq.

Thirdly, we must educate the American people about this Islamic worldview. It is not because these people are poor and or uneducated that they want to kill America and Israel in the name of Allah. They are raised to hate America and Israel from the age of 5yrs old.

I realize I am in the minority on this matter because it seems everyone just wants out of Iraq. Appeasement or land for peace or isolationism will not solve the problem. These people will continue to raise hell because their clerics will ask them to do it in the name of Allah. We must take the fight to them. If this means declaring war on Iran or Syria so be it. War is expensive and it will cost many lives but in the long run it is the right thing to do.

[Mighty BOB!]

Some people in the USA believe we should negotiate with Al Qaeda because they represent the people of the Middle East.
Al Qaeda doesn't "represent" the Middle-East anymore than the KKK "represents" the United States.

[zgtrman97]

I usually do not get into these types of discussions..but something needs to be said here...all previous posts are all good ideas in their own right..however we are all missing the big picture here.
Fighting terrorism is fighting an ideaology that has been around and taught since the dawn of time..and a few short years of war is not going to change that..it would be like trying to change every mind in the USA over to communism or other such governmental types.
No it cannot be done.
I know that religeous beliefs are a matter of opinion and the like but the good book states that there will be wars and rumors of wars..also it states that brother shall rise against brother. All this was said over 2000 years ago and it is coming to pass and it will happen. Am I saying to just give up and let the radical minds of our time have their way.. no of course not..but we are going about this looking for the win and there will be none. All we are doing is holding certain events at bay until all is prepared for the final battle at Armegeddon.
Sufficeth to say terrorism is not going to be vanquished...its to fluid..its like trying to destroy water...you can freeze it and then crush it..but it will just melt into a liquid state..and guess what it is the same amount of water..on the other hand you can put fire under it and turn it into steam but eventually it returns to a iiquid state..and guess what ..its the same amount of water.

The fact that the announcement was made that AlQueda was perparing to hit targets in the USA tells me that the operatives and key personnel are already in place..just waiting for the word.

The only way to fight terrorism is to take away their reason for being a terrorist and undo 2000 yrs of ideology. Now how do you do that???

[Nilsog]

The fact of the matter is, there are millions of muslims in the United States. How many of them are terrorists? Should we do what our forefathers did in World War II after Pearl Harbor and put them in internment camps because they cannot be trusted? NO. This is the United States, "Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE". Last I checked, we were supposed to deal with these matters in a way that defended the freedoms of our people, whether they be Muslim, Christian, Homosexual, Mentally Disabled or whatever .

I know many may not agree with me, and don't misunderstand me, I think there is nothing more precious than a human life, but, to take our freedom due to fear of a possible attack is letting the enemy win. In fact, we have already lost. I would rather die a free man than die a scared, oppressed, useless person.

I believe Benjamin Franklin once said, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"

We are doing just that, and I think the Founding Fathers are most likely rolling in their graves.

I feel somewhat overwhelmed sometimes due to the fact that it seems we are about to fall from grace (take it figuratively). I honestly don't think the U.S. has much longer left as a 'superpower'. Because of our compromises over the past years, the corruption, the scandals, the lack of government support, the utter lack of support the American people give the war effort. In World War II everyone did something- if you had fat from cooking, you donated it for ordnance, if you had scrap, you donated for the war effort. People bought war bonds, and while yes, the government suppressed anti-war talk, I feel the vast majority of people supported the government and the war.

Now, everyone will probably go and start with the "But this is a different war, it was started over lies, and its for oil blah blah blah". It makes no difference. I'm shocked at the pure apathy of the American people. Most people don't even know who's running the country. I had a patient in the ambulance the other day who couldn't tell me who the president was... and she DIDN'T have head trauma! American culture today wants to escape reality, whether it be by engrossing in a computer game or the newest American Idol, people don't want to face the facts.

It sickens me, it really does. I wish we could be united. I wish we could win this war. I wish humanity on a whole could overcome it's differences, but its something that very well may never happen.

I know most of this may have been off topic, but I think the root of the majority of the issues today are in fact due to the pure apathy and ignorance of the average American citizen. I'm not saying I'm a genius, nor do I know everything thats goign on here, but I do consider myself informed, and I am very disappointed in my fellow countrymen. Even after an attack that killed over 2,000 civilians, and 343 of my brother firefighters, people were 'patriotic' and got flags for their porches, and lapel pins to show their support. Support for what? The profiteers who are making millions off the saps who want to be 'patriotic'? Patriotism isn't wearing a flag pin, nor is it supporting the war, nor is it degrading the country. Patriotism in my book is knowing the issues, voting whenever possible, and fighting for what you believe in in the most civil and political manner necessary. That's what being American is about, being able to take part in the shaping of the future of the country, and no one knows that anymore.

It makes me want to cry.

[noob]

ok these events are starting to scare me

america losing its title as a superpower

terorrist gaining influence and growing bigger

the green comet lion showed us some time ago on cncden

am i going insane or do these point to something related? :wtf::eek:

[Mikael Grizzly]

Start naming things. Grouping all the middle east factions into one big goup called terrorists is not helping to solve the problem, it makes it even more complicated.

America lost it's title as a superpower long ago, around the time it started adventuring all around the globe. And before you say it, no, nukes don't make a superpower.

[[Lazer]Tank]

Start naming things. Grouping all the middle east factions into one big goup called terrorists is not helping to solve the problem, it makes it even more complicated.

America lost it's title as a superpower long ago, around the time it started adventuring all around the globe. And before you say it, no, nukes don't make a superpower.

America is the only superpower. We have the largest, most trained and professional, fighting force in the world. I think that makes us a superpower...

[Slapper]

Ive said all i can say about this topic i think, in the past blurbs. Not much else to say about Terrorism from my perspective. Others and myself have covered it all.

Korona covered it quite well id say, that is a very intelligent post. And he is bang on....

Now then, as far as the U.S not being a Superpower, i do not know where that comes from, as of right now this minute, the ONLY one....

Who else is there please?

-Russia? nope, not for a long long time. Since the break up...With no disrespect to Russia or its people
{ Or Krasny especially} they were at best, a paper tiger, able to fool the West into thinking they were capable of fighting a Massive War. We know now they probably could not have, their Military members were not being paid for quite some time, their equipment was in shambles and their economy definately could not sustain any protracted Wars on any front for long. This is common knowledge now. They do have Nukes, enough to wipe out any Country on the face of the earth, the question is how many of those would actually fly? Some estimates and some statements from Retired Russian Military members tell us that clearly less than half of their Strategic Rocket Forces were ready to perform...Remember this fact, this was part of my job at one point in my long Career, estimating Russian Capabilities and dissecting their intentions and Military power.I could throw a bunch of facts and figures at you all, but id get in trouble for that, there are limits to what i can discuss in a place like this without authorization, Edmonton Military Prison is not a place i want to visit......{ Yes Krasny, its true man, i was one of those guys..:P}

-China? nope, they cannot project Military power outside their own area of interest, they cannot move their Billion man Army off of their shores. Their Navy and Air Force do not match that of the U.S, nevermind anyone else. China is not as of yet a Superpower.

-India? nope...Economically and Militarily, they do not stack up.

The U.S Military can project power ALL around the Globe, just because they seem to be faltering in Iraq does not mean they have lost Superpower status dude. They are not fighting a Military on Military fight are they, they are fighting an elusive enemy, its not like War in the sense we used to think of it. Russia, China and any other worthy adversaries know a Military confrontation with U.S. Forces would be a losing battle. They are still the most robust and biggest economy in the World as well. If that does not denote Superpower status, please rebuff me and show me how they arent.

su·per·pow·er
Pronunciation: 'sü-p&r-"pau(-&)r
Function: noun
1 : excessive or superior power
2 a : an extremely powerful nation; specifically : one of a very few dominant states in an era when the world is divided politically into these states and their satellites b : an international governing body able to enforce its will upon the most powerful states

That about sums up Superpower status, show me then, how they are not. For arguments sake. Remember, this is not personal, this is a discussion.

As far as Nuclear Power and Arms being a factor in Superpower status, your right, it does not mean that at all, what does is Projecting Power and Economic Power. There is no other Country in this World that can do this as quickly and effectively asthe U.S. Their Intelligence apparati and their Space programs go far beyond anyone elses capabilities, not to mention again, their Economic Power, they can hurt any Trading partners economy with a stroke of a pen. Noone else has that power as of yet and havent since the fall of the Berlin Wall.

All this BS about China coming of age and perhaps surpassing the U.S both Militarily and Economically is hogwash. For that to happen, you would have to have the biggest, richest investors around the globe suddenly change heart and trust a Communist Country with all of their money and investment capital and leave the U.S and re-settle in China with that cash. Not going to happen is it.....You would have to see a 90 per cent increase in Chinese standards of living, you are forgetting perhaps they are also one of the poorest Countries in the World, with clearly 3/4 of their people living in total poverty, no, not like the kind we think of here. They are a poor people. Standards of living do not even remotely compare to with what we have here in North America or the EU. Clearly, China is modeled on the Russia of old economically. The Politicians, Military and Goverment workers all live decently, the rest of them do not. If you were to include Hong Kong and Taiwan in that, perhaps you could have a leg to stand on, but they are not Mainland China and thus live under different rules and economic status. Hong Kong is the Chinese Governments cash cow and they are not about to change anything there. Hong Kong lives under different rules than the rest of China, their economy is allowed to grow and prosper as long as they pay their dues to the Communists. I mean really, do you see the Bilderberg Groups members meeting in China? The most powerful and richest people hail from North America and the EU, not from China. Noone is going to hand the Communists the keys to the World and damn straight they cant just take it for themselves.....

So to sum this up, the U.S is the only Superpower left as of right now, noone else is even close and chances are never will be unless the very richest and powerful companies and individuals in this world suddenly change heart and side with the Commies...Now do you really think that is going to happen? Just because a some of you here and a pile of others dislike America and what she stands for, does not mean that America will cease to be a Superpower because they are disliked or people disagree with their way of doing business.

For the sake of discussion, lets debate this one shall we? Im interested to see my statements rebuffed and torn asunder. I live for these kind of discussions, always something to sink your teeth into...People, keep in mind, this sort of thing was once my Job....and to an extent, still is in some context. Im not a guy who isn not informed and isnt privy to reading what other Countrys think and may or may not do....This is still part of my Employment duties. Estimating what the other guy may think or may do and what he has and what he has not....

[Korona]

You wanna know who the biggest material contributor to the Taliban regime was? Not Iran, not Pakistan, it was the US of A. Much of what is happening is backlash against governments (not just the US) pulling out of supporting questionable regimes.

Now that the cold war is over, there is no need to make faustian pacts with terrorists any more. That pisses a lot of people off. Long term I think it is good for world peace, but the short term is a lot of groups trained by the CIA or Pakistan or whoever, who are now no longer needed, and are out for blood.

[Mikael Grizzly]

As far as Nuclear Power and Arms being a factor in Superpower status, your right, it does not mean that at all, what does is Projecting Power and Economic Power. There is no other Country in this World that can do this as quickly and effectively asthe U.S. Their Intelligence apparati and their Space programs go far beyond anyone elses capabilities, not to mention again, their Economic Power, they can hurt any Trading partners economy with a stroke of a pen. Noone else has that power as of yet and havent since the fall of the Berlin Wall.

Well, no. Far from it. America can deploy it's troops anywhere, but at what cost? Taxpayers' dollars. The upkeep of a military force is insanely expensive, with projecting it anywhere even bigger. Same for the space programs, which aren't really developing at all, relying on the faulty shuttle design.

Furthermore, America cannot hurt any economy without hurting it's own. The entire world is currently in a thick web of trade routes and deals, with America being one of the bigger nations in this web. If it tries to hurt an economy of a big country, that results in the target breaking all trade with the USA, creating a big gap in export (where the goods targeted for that country have nowhere to go) and import (goods imported from that country no longer appear). Smaller countries can do without America by estabilishing trade with other countries.

So no, it cannot hurt any economy with the strike of a pen. Imagine what would happen if it attempted to hurt EU's.

All this BS about China coming of age and perhaps surpassing the U.S both Militarily and Economically is hogwash. For that to happen, you would have to have the biggest, richest investors around the globe suddenly change heart and trust a Communist Country with all of their money and investment capital and leave the U.S and re-settle in China with that cash. Not going to happen is it.....You would have to see a 90 per cent increase in Chinese standards of living, you are forgetting perhaps they are also one of the poorest Countries in the World, with clearly 3/4 of their people living in total poverty, no, not like the kind we think of here. They are a poor people. Standards of living do not even remotely compare to with what we have here in North America or the EU. Clearly, China is modeled on the Russia of old economically. The Politicians, Military and Goverment workers all live decently, the rest of them do not. If you were to include Hong Kong and Taiwan in that, perhaps you could have a leg to stand on, but they are not Mainland China and thus live under different rules and economic status. Hong Kong is the Chinese Governments cash cow and they are not about to change anything there. Hong Kong lives under different rules than the rest of China, their economy is allowed to grow and prosper as long as they pay their dues to the Communists. I mean really, do you see the Bilderberg Groups members meeting in China? The most powerful and richest people hail from North America and the EU, not from China. Noone is going to hand the Communists the keys to the World and damn straight they cant just take it for themselves.....

Um, hello? Corporations around the world manufacture lots of stuff in China, because it's cheaper and more profitable. China is one of the biggest exporters, with America being one of the biggest buyers.

China may not be a dragon of economy, as it bases mostly on what it gets from external buyers, but America cannot exist without China. Sudden removal of cheap workforce would mean a sudden surge in costs and most companies going bankrupt, as they raise prices to compensate and consumers refuse to buy.

So to sum this up, the U.S is the only Superpower left as of right now, noone else is even close and chances are never will be unless the very richest and powerful companies and individuals in this world suddenly change heart and side with the Commies...Now do you really think that is going to happen? Just because a some of you here and a pile of others dislike America and what she stands for, does not mean that America will cease to be a Superpower because they are disliked or people disagree with their way of doing business.

America is losing it's alleged superpower status to the European Union. We are in the middle of reforming it and quite propably will outclass America in terms of political power (we don't go adventuring all around the world despite the fact that we could) and economically (EU is already the biggest market in the world).

I predict that at the current course sooner or later a civil war will erupt in America. Read DMZ?

[SgtRicko]

I predict that at the current course sooner or later a civil war will erupt in America. Read DMZ?

Zero chance. Thing's aren't THAT bad, and if a civil war did break out, it would be a most stupid and pointless war, moreso than most other wars. Besides, a lot of the sheeple seem mostly content being... well, sheeple, so why would they wanna break a 'comfy' shackle if it even honestly exsists, that is?

[Slapper]

ill reply to you as shortly as i can man.

1st thing 1st, Alleged Superpower status? What are you smokin kid? really now...

Firms go to China to setup their factories, i understand the Economic sense of that move, as you said, Labour is cheap. What dollar amount of that money do you think all these Companies invest there? Are all of those CEO's , Pres., Owners living there? Spending all their money there? Are they trusting the Chinese with investment money? As much as America?

The only Country in the World who can afford to fight protracted War, and even more than 1 place at 1 time is who? China? I think not, and its noone else either. We are not debating who can spend the most on a War, we are debating who can do it for long periods. If China was trying to be in the Middle East in 2 places as long as America has been, they would have broke the bank a long time ago. Their citizens are already poor and the Chinese economy could not and would not sustain the pace that America has in Afghanistan and Iraq. America is not broke and they certainly do not pale at all with the EU economys, even combined they dont measure up yet. Where you get your info man, i want to see it so i can actually give any credit for your statements, because its not what the Economists and Experts say. The opposite of what you are saying actually is what the numbers show.

There is not 1 Country on this planet:

- Who has as many CBG's at sea, has as many Submarines or the Stealh Technology to back it all up.

-Has as many Satellites deployed in space and other Space based systems...that work....that stop ICBM's.......

-Has an Air Force with the numbers or the Training to match or the ability and the technology to deliver payloads undetected...at night, and not be on radar....and drop that bomb within 1 yard of its intended target.

-There is noone who has the Heavy Lift Capacity to shuttle a Million plus Men and their Material across the Planet in a matter of months.

-There is not a Country who can respond to problem areas as quickly as the U.S. anywhere at anytime. none.....zippo, nada.....Tell me who if you disagree.

-There is noone who has pre-positioned Equipment and Material all over the World nor near as many bases, nor anyone who has the money to maintain such a large Military Force, year in and year out. etc, etc, etc, etc...

I could go on for hours.....

Where you come up with this stuff is beyond me. You are talking to a Career Military Professional who has spent a lot of time on these topics as part of my job. I have been many things, but uninformed is not one of them.

The Technological edge is easily given to America, it needs less people and relies on superior technology to achieve Military Domination. That is proven fact, not conjecture. It again my friend, was part of my job to know this and either agree or disagree with both sides. You do your homework, you'll come to the same conclusion.

The Space program America has is bigger than anyone elses, regardless of the dated designs of the current Space Shuttle. If your not aware, the Contract for the Newest Gen Space Fleet was awarded sometime back, you must have missed it, they will have new toys soon... The U.S program is more expensive to upkeep than anyone elses, Russia depends on old and proven designs to upkeep their space commitments and they do well at it, but the dollar amounts the U.S spends exceed all the rest of them put together. That speaks of Economic power does it not?

Again, i would like to see some numbers and information from a reliable source as to the statement that America cannot hurt economys without hurting their own. It really depends on which Countrys your talking about, their Major Trading partners? They could cripple a good part of this planet with a stroke of a pen and i challenge you to show me how they could not as opposed to just saying it. You have any idea what their Foreign Aid Packages to over 127 Countries amount to? What do you think would happen if tomorrow, America cut off everyone they help with Money, Logistical and Technical and Military support? Any clue what the number is for what they give other Countries?? I didnt think so, or you wouldnt be saying what you are.....They may depend on Imports bud, but they Export a lot more things than anyone else and at a better price and better quality in most cases.

You are right in 1 respect and i agree and so do a lot of people, they cannot exist without each other, the U.S and China... They are pretty close in terms of Trading per Capita between them, any sort of Trade rifts always have Economic repercussions for each Country. but which one can outlast the other? That is the question and im sure we know which would win an Economic battle. Economics fuels the Military Industrial Machine and so does War.

Now i hate to laugh here, but i will...This next statement from you is laughable.

America is losing it's alleged superpower status to the European Union. We are in the middle of reforming it and quite propably will outclass America in terms of political power (we don't go adventuring all around the world despite the fact that we could) and economically (EU is already the biggest market in the world).

That my boy, will be the day my ass blows bubbles. You are not talking about 1 Country are you? Because the EU is not 1 Country is it..........Political Power? What Political Power are you speaking of? Gee, Iran, dont build Nukes or we will throw flowers at you? Oh gee, wait, lets not attack Iraq, because there are no WMD's? Without thinking that maybe, just maybe..Saddam had about 6 months to get rid of the WMD's to other neighboring Countries or just plain buried them? Hell, Iraq is just a small Country with a little sandbox to hide them in, right? I mean, i guess he would have just kept them so he could be caught with them right? Anyhow, i dont think anyone really supports the War in Iraq, even Americans have grown tired of that and the reasons behind it. No doubt in my mind the EU in most cases disagrees with it, but that does not mean they would help out if it got really rough in the Middle East. We know well over here the EU has no stomach for tackling the really dangerous stuff. Proven that time and time again by how many times North america had to come to the rescue to either stop Wars and defeat the Agressors {WW1, WW2} and how many peacekeeping missions we have had to do to keep innocent people alive while Governments over there sat on their collective asses and debated the issue, while people were dying........

What pull do they have? the EU.....What has the EU done? Who is afraid of them and what can they do to the American Economy? Or Militarily? Who do they ask for protection from ICBM's? Russia? China?...lol...really. What your saying is good topic for discussion and rebuttal, but your not informed enough obviously to back this up with solid proof. Because the EU is not a Superpower, and people, especially the older generations, the Rich and Powerful are not going to turn their backs on old , powerful alliances with the Americans. There is a blood debt owed to the U.S by a lot of EU Governments and the people that matter will never forget this. Now you are talking about Old Money and Old Debts of Honor, and each and every Politician who sits on an EU Government will never forget what North America has done for them, especially places like Britain, Belgium, The Dutch and many many more. Some citizens, perhaps people much like yourself may not agree with it, but again, the ones that make policy, the ones in power, will never cross that line. Regardless of their personal opinions. If it was not for the U.S and the Allies, you would be saying "Seig Heil" and goosetepping to this day. You young ones seem to forget that fact. The people that matter will not forget nor abandon those principles. The EU is again, not 1 Country, but a large group of Countries, and where you get the idea the EU's economy and Political power is greater than that of the U.S i dont understand, Your just talking to talk. That is not reality. Some of us know facts, not fiction. And you say the EU is the biggest market in the World. Is China and other nations you consider Superpowers the main suppliers to the EU? hm?

Oh and btw? how the hell do you think your Forces or your Governments could go around the World? How are you going to get them there? Swim? Fly? Your Countries combined do not have Heavy Lift Capacity enough to do a darn thing, By Air, or by Sea, or by Land. Your Countries even all combined cannot muster 20 CBG's or a fleet of C-141's or a fleet of C5's or thousands of Merchant Vessels to move all the Men and Material around the Globe or Combined Air Forces to move around the World. That takes Flying Gas Tanks to do, guess who has fleets of them? KC 135's make that happen. Noone really has those in numbers, all EU Forces there combined dont measure up there either.... . Man, you picked the wrong guy to say this stuff too, we are in my area here. Does the EU have Stealth Technology too? B1B's, B2's? F-117's? F-22's? I got no quarrel with the EU or its people, Europe is a cool place, ive been there many times. But what your saying on this forum is BS and not reality....

su·per·pow·er
Pronunciation: 'sü-p&r-"pau(-&)r
Function: noun
1 : excessive or superior power
2 a : an extremely powerful nation; specifically : one of a very few dominant states in an era when the world is divided politically into these states and their satellites b : an international governing body able to enforce its will upon the most powerful states

That by all definition is not the EU. In every sense. In America's case, they are the only 1 left that can do all of those things mentioned.....That is fact , not conjecture, and if you even watch news or study this stuff, you could not reach any other conclusion.

EU=Superpower, overpowering America, not gonna happen, not in our lifetimes anyways.

[Mikael Grizzly]

Ah, you wanted a debate yet resorted to ad hominem arguments. Frankly, I have better stuff to do than argue with an American fanatic.

At least rebels in Iraq and Afghanistan don't try to sound reasonable.

[Bloodbath]

Here is a reasonable solution.

1. America is stupid for always putting their nose in other peoples business so it America's own fault for having so many people angry at them. Once America stops doing this I am sure we would have less problems.

2. ****ing the Middle East since day 1 has never got along with each other because this supposed Ala or God or whatever fingers his asshole and this one doesnt so solution to this is nuke the mother ****ing Middle East and kill everyone leave no survivers.

[CO Valle]

Ah, you wanted a debate yet resorted to ad hominem arguments. Frankly, I have better stuff to do than argue with an American fanatic.
I Agree with that, so I'm not entering the debate, but I'm gonna tell you (Slapper) something, I wish you can find it useful.

Your sound like something in between a polititian and an Intelligence analyst, and that worries me, you should know better, those two are not to be mixed, you loose perspective.

(1) If there is a country to be called superpower, certainly it is the USA, but certainly you are loosing that status (it won't happen but in many years, but you are well in your way to that -not that you can't change direction either)

(2)About Russia, true, Russia's nukes may not work (yes perhaps even 50%), but those that work are more than enough to finish the job more than two times...

(3)About stealth tech. As an intelligence analyst (I believe you are) you must be well aware that the main reason for the creation of that tech is that the USAF wouldn't last 2 weeks against the RuAF.

(4)On the airlift capabilities, let me remind you that the US had to hire Antonovs aircrafts. True the US has the best airlift capability in the world, but it has proven insufficient for the task at hand.

(5)China is still many years (at least 50) to be able to project power globally, but you must be well aware that those are their intentions.

(6)And about the EU not having the guts for a war, let me remind you something, both the EU and Russia suffered the most in the WWs, and naturally they do not want that to happen, the US, on the other hand, didn't suffer any attacks in the mainland, and yet your citizens do not support the war. If a serious attack on the US were to take place, it would be far demoralizing, and before patriotism could take place there would be a open window for more attacks, demoralizing even more.

(7)I'm very sorry to use this point to try help you find your way back into objectivity, but the US response on hurricane Katrina was ... very poor ... just to say that even third world countries were faster in being able to help than your own government was... what a shame for the world's "superpower".

(8)And finally. I'm very doubfull of the US capability to fight a war like the Iraq one, without the support of the British, the Spanish, and many others.

Now, I cannot remember all my sources, but for one: Jane's.

I you want to reply to my points you're welcome, but do so in short precise arguments, and not UBER post that use the "I'll bore you before you finish to read my post" strategy to win the topic.

And talking about topic... how about staying on topic.

[starscream007]

The best things the US can do is: (1) Secure our borders. How do you fight a "war on terror" with wide open borders? (2) Round up and deport all illegals ASAP. (3) Stop meddling in other country's affairs. We have enough domestic problems to keep us busy indefinitely.


With 1 and 2 dont hold your breath because both Republicans and Democrats benefit from illegal workers being here. Republicans get their slave labor for their big business buddies and Democrats get the votes. As for number three the sooner we get neo-cons who have this failed idea that democracy can be exported to other countries like a car out of office we might be able to achieve that.

[Slapper]

On this issue, i stand corrected, let it never be said i wont admit when im wrong about something.

China's Economy:

SHANGHAI (AFP) - China's economy grew so rapidly in the first half of 2007 that it is likely to overtake Germany as the world's third-largest by the end of this year, analysts say.

The release Wednesday of January to June figures for Asia's second biggest economy will provide fresh evidence that Beijing's economic braking measures have had little effect.

China's sizzling economy expanded even faster than originally thought last year, with the government revising 2006 growth domestic product (GDP) to 11.1 percent from 10.7 percent.

Data released by China's statistics bureau last week showed the economy was worth 21.09 trillion yuan in 2006, about 2.65 trillion dollars based on last year's average exchange rate of 7.97 yuan to the dollar.

The revision puts China in striking distance of Europe's largest economy within months.

"With this upward revision, it is highly likely that China will bypass Germany to become the third-largest economy in the world in current US dollar terms by the end of this year," said Hong Liang, an economist at Goldman Sachs.

According to the World Bank, Germany's economy was worth 2.9 trillion dollars at the end of 2006.

Economists expect GDP in the second quarter to near or equal its breathtaking January to March pace of 11.1 percent growth.

JPMorgan Chase Bank economist Wang Qian put the second-quarter acceleration at 10.6 percent, and said it would pick up speed in the second half of the year.

"We donÂ’t see any sector of the economy slowing down. ItÂ’s firing on all cylinders," said Wang.

The torrid pace of development means that China's economic czars will once again have to devise fresh ways to prevent the export powerhouse from the kind of overheating that could trigger a slide into financial crisis.

Regulators have already taken this year introduced a slew of piecemeal administrative measures to slow the economy, including two interest rate hikes, five increases in bank reserve requirements and new export curbs.

Exports, one of Beijing's biggest headaches given the friction it causes with its two largest trade partners, the European Union and the United States, have continued to flood international markets.

The widening trade gap is on route to becoming the globe's largest ever after Beijing announced last week that its surplus had jumped more than 85 percent in June to 26.91 billion dollars.

Although the June figure was partly due to factories rushing to beat new curbs on exports that took effect July 1, the huge global demand for Chinese goods means the surplus will expand through the rest of the year, analysts said.

"China has become the world's factory for manufactured consumer goods," said Qu Hongbin, a senior economist at HSBC in Hong Kong.

"If global consumer demand remains then Chinese exports will grow. There is not a lot that government policy can do about that."

Washington and Brussels believe one step to staunching the tide of Chinese goods would be greater appreciation in the currency, which trade partners say is artificially low and boosts China's business competitiveness.

But China's autocratic leadership fears that could destabilise its financial system, making such a step highly unlikely, in keeping with the government's repeated position of allowing the yuan to rise slowly.

Earlier this month the nation's top economic planner said China had to further tighten macroeconomic controls in the second half in the face of growing financial risks.

"The trend is of an economy that is moving from a bias of fast growth to overheating," said a research arm of the National Development and Reform Commission.

Li Huiyong, chief analyst at Shenyin Wanguo Securities in Shanghai, said the government had to get cracking.

"At the moment, there is no obvious change to the overheated economy, with inflation and investment (levels) likely to jump," said Li.

"Under such circumstances, the major task is to prevent further overheating and strengthen controlling measures."

As i did say though, the EU is not even close to the U.S Economy at this point and China is still a distant 3rd in this race. Germany is the EU's powerhouse, no debating that, the facts tell the story.

If you read this piece, you will see there are always pro's and con's in growing bigger, call them growing pains.

Oh and guys, look the the Flag under my name, its not American fyi. Your entitled to your opinions for sure.

The 1 guy wants to tell me the U.S pales to his EU Countries Economy and Militarily speaking as well. Good enough, carry on. Woteva......Intelligence was something i used to be involved with, but not an Analyst just so ya know.}

Valle my man. ill go with the short version if you wish:

(2)About Russia, true, Russia's nukes may not work (yes perhaps even 50%), but those that work are more than enough to finish the job more than two times... I mentioned this fact, they had enough and still do, no argument there.

(3)About stealth tech. As an intelligence analyst (I believe you are) you must be well aware that the main reason for the creation of that tech is that the USAF wouldn't last 2 weeks against the RuAF. True, back in the 80's, Russian Missile Defeating Tech was ahead of the U.S and so were their Air to Air and Ground to Air systems, the U.S needed to address this and they did so by creating Stealth Tech and to this day, that Tech scares the bejesus out of others....

(4)On the airlift capabilities, let me remind you that the US had to hire Antonovs aircrafts. True the US has the best airlift capability in the world, but it has proven insufficient for the task at hand. Im not aware that SAC had to hire Antonov's AN-72's for any buildup in the Middle East, but that would not surpise me either given that they were in a hurry both times to move Forces to the Gulf. Still, given that, there is not another Country that can move their Forces as quickly, period. Fact, not confecture.They would need help im sure if they were in a Real hurry, but they are more than capable of deploying Forces than any one else in the World. Again, fact, not conjecture.

(5)China is still many years (at least 50) to be able to project power globally, but you must be well aware that those are their intentions. As we are know, this is true. I would not hesitate to say they would prefer that in less than 50 years, but whether or not they can achieve it is another thing entirely.

(6)And about the EU not having the guts for a war, let me remind you something, both the EU and Russia suffered the most in the WWs, and naturally they do not want that to happen, the US, on the other hand, didn't suffer any attacks in the mainland, and yet your citizens do not support the war. If a serious attack on the US were to take place, it would be far demoralizing, and before patriotism could take place there would be a open window for more attacks, demoralizing even more.


The U.S came to help and lost a whole lot of people to defend a place far far from home to help bring down the worst Dictator the Planet has ever known, perhaps saving the lives of millions more in the process...They lost a whole lot of people there and so did a lot of other Countrys. The fact that Russia probably took the worst of it is true. Fact. The point is, they came to help in a place far from their shores and a lot of mothers and fathers lost their sons. The Americans capacity to make and deliver Men and Materials was what won that War....They outdid the Germans in all aspects of that part. My point i guess is that they sacrificed to defend Europe and that is why they are owed a debt of honor to this day by most E.U Countries. No debate here.

(7)I'm very sorry to use this point to try help you find your way back into objectivity, but the US response on hurricane Katrina was ... very poor ... just to say that even third world countries were faster in being able to help than your own government was... what a shame for the world's "superpower". Agreed 100 per cent, it is a shame indeed. My opinion about that is the same as yours. Noone was going to make money in the Bush Admin for rebuilding and helping, so they just basically ignored the whole thing and still are to this day, skirting the issue. Shameful....Haliburton couldnt turn a profit, so why help....

(8)And finally. I'm very doubfull of the US capability to fight a war like the Iraq one, without the support of the British, the Spanish, and many others. That is a moot point, we see that your right everyday of the week my man. Guerilla Warfare is not something that the U.S is schooled in and we see that shortcoming daily. The Russians learned their lesson about fighting Extremists back in the 80's and bailed out, noone seems to have learned from their bad experience, much to the chagrin of the American peeople. My opinion is simple and someone else said it too. You cannot deal with Zealots, the only way to is to flatten the whole place and leave noone alive, but that isnt the American way and they will pay dearly for that.....

Your sound like something in between a polititian and an Intelligence analyst, and that worries me, you should know better, those two are not to be mixed, you loose perspective. They are both mixed and they tie together, so much so that decision making processes and Foreign Policy objectives for Governments depend on people much like myself looking at all possibilities and making judgements based on Political and Intelligence information at hand and having a pile of people all looking at it. Some will come up with one perspective, others will be opposite, exactly like us here...A range of opinions is what they want and what they get. I dont agree with you though and im sure some of my former bosses would disagree with you as well. and just so you know, i have been many things in the military, a Soldier, a Peacekeeper, Advisor, Trainer, Doormat, Ameoba, Slug...etc...etc, etc...

and finally... Ah, you wanted a debate yet resorted to ad hominem arguments. Frankly, I have better stuff to do than argue with an American fanatic.

At least rebels in Iraq and Afghanistan don't try to sound reasonable. LOL! youve mistaken me for someone else who may be American but isnt and also mistaken me for someone who is 20 years old and hasnt worked in this Field for years... This was my job, i guess that disqualifies everything i say. Of course i dont have a clue what im talking about. Sigh......your entitled to your opinions as i am mine, we agree to disagree, fair enough, im quite used to it, or i wouldnt post here and talk about things im interested in and experienced with, im quite ok with being told im wrong and being semi-flamed for taking the stance i take with these issues.... I will say this though, i, like anyone who has worked this sort of Field knows a hell of a lot more and is privy to read and learn certain facts and figures, things that the average person is not privy to, you being one of those type of people. So when you make certain judgements, you are doing so without being privy to a lot of info that people like myself can see. Dont blame me or disqualify my information, because i am better informed than you Mik.

Our whole disagreement is about the U.S losing Superpower status, of which you are wrong and say they are Ad Hominem, even though i supplied in my Ad Hominem arguments, all the things that qualify and quantify Superpower status, the U.S is easily able to achieve those things that make a Superpower and the EU cannot. The Military sense of what you said was the EU can go around the Globe, i am here to tell you, you are incorrect on that assumption and supplied the reasons why that is true. The EU cannot project power either Economically or Militarily around the Globe in any reasonable timeframe that would scare other Regimes from pursuing paths that would bring stout and quick warnings from the ONLY World Superpower left....That is a fact. Whether you realize this or not, the rest of the World knows the E.U can easily be duped into talking about issues and debating issues long enough to gain the upper hand in any sort of compromises and carry on with what the E.U is objecting to long enough to build Nukes for example. By the time Javier Solana is done talking to Iran, they will already have workable Nukes...Iran isnt stupid.We just saw another BS stalling tactic by the Iranians get discussed this week and the E.U. swallowed it, hook, line, and sinker. They have succeeded in opening rifts in policy between the EU, the US and its Allies that want action as opposed to more stalling and more talk. Reasoning with Iran is allowing them more time,is exactly what they want and they also are im sure, very pleased that this stalling tactic has given them exactly that, more time to stall.

The other part is about the EU being the Worlds Stronget Economy and my Ad Hominem arguments supplied all the info that says your wrong, including that article written and supplied by experts, all that info, but yet im wrong...LOL...but you still insist that you do not want to argue with me. The best way to admit defeat without admitting it is to shut up and not reply. You know your wrong but wont admit that. Fair enough.

As most people that have been on the Lions Den for years know, i dont open my yap about things without backing up my arguments with facts and figures. I guess the people that get paid to research and learn all of this stuff dont know more than you Mik. You made those 2 statements with 0 basis in reality and i rebuffed you for it and explained my position and the reasons for it, you supplied an insult. Thats very Intelligent work.

[Ace]

us intel should have gotten more time to work instead of rushing in blindly to any1 saying bad words about the us :p they should have not looked at iraq or maybe funded some gerilla effort there :p and moved in gunz blazing into iran. And also the problem with terrorism is that its not country based armies like the old school way of wars. :( so it takes alot more practice and skillz to identify the possible enemies and to neutralize them somehow. ;)

[Slapper]

us intel should have gotten more time to work instead of rushing in blindly to any1 saying bad words about the us they should have not looked at iraq or maybe funded some gerilla effort there

Your right about that, they should have allowed more time to find the WMD's and they sure as hell should not have announced intentions of doing so publically. They also did not understand what would happen when the guy who kept the Shia's and the Sunnis from killing each other was no longer around to do so. They blew that one big style. They gave them way too much warning about what was coming. He got rid of the WMD's, plain and simple. To suggest he never had them and didnt have the time to hide or send them to other Countires before the Invasion is narrow minded. He had all the time in the World to dispose of things he didnt want to get caught with, thus making their accusations true. He was not a stupid guy, just ignorant.

Im surpised they didnt actually fund an Insurgency after the Iran-Iraq War to subvert factions within Saddam's Regime. That still boggles a lot of minds. They backed him in that War and funded him to fight the Iranians. I guess after it was all said and done, they chose the lesser of 2 evils at the time. Came back to bite em on the behind in hindsight. Im sure somewhere, someone is regretting making those choices.

At the end of the day, what anyone can do to reverse the damage done to the U.S respect and authority and the rise of Muslim Extremism around the World, how to fix what some percieve as America on a downslide, thats a question for not mere mortals like us. The Sheeples are content to be as someone put it, Sheeples....What happens on distant shores, to most who dont have Family deployed, all that BS is a World away. The only thing that may shake the Sheeples loose from their deep sleep is another attack, god forbid, on U.S Soil.

Bottom line: someone has to stand up to the bullies and bad people in this World. The World is not a cozy, fair place where everyone loves everyone and never will be. Get used to it. Tough choices will always have to be made in the interest of Security and Safety of ones citizens. To make a famous quote,
" Freedom is never free, it costs lives" That is truth and reality. Your freedoms do not come without a price...and never will.

There are not many countries who can do that to begin with, and even fewer who would come to the aid of Friends halfway around the World if asked to help. I call that Brave, i call that Respectable and the right thing to do. If France was attacked, England, hell any E.U damn Country that has free speech, free elections and Democratic Institutions, you can bet the U.S would be the 1st guys to come and help you and my own Country as well. We have both done it before to help some of your Countries and you can damn well bet we would do it again. Thats what we stand for in North America. Freedom and Honor. What every friggin human being that breathes air deserves.

Do not confuse my opinions of Americans with what i may think of GW Bush and the current U.S Government. I do not agree with almost everything he has done and do not agree that he has helped America's interests and do not support his reasons to go to War. That is a Government, not a people. GW Bush is 1 man, not an entire Country.

But i will never question the fact that most honest Americans would come and help their friends in time of need and through some pretty big assed Wars, they should have earned respect from the EU Countries for what they have done for them in the past. My Country has also helped the EU. We even kicked some serious ass for you. WW1 is a good example of that....To blame all that is bad on America and its Government is also hogwash. As someone also pointed out and i have 100 times, the Middle East has been the center of conflict for longer than recorded History and Muslims are usually at the center of it all. Again, the truth sucks, but it is the truth. Truth hurts those that deny it.

[berlin88]

Leave it to Slapper to point out the obvious, yet have everyone calling it BS.

1. To those posters who think the EU is a major economic player, why don't you post some evidence of what they could do? How can they project this economic power in a timely manner? Slapper posted plenty of reason why they can't do it, but maybe someone could give a decent explanation of how.

2. Like Slapper mentioned already, the EU is not a single country, but rather a collection of countries. Together they may be strong and mighty, but that does not mean they can project that power.

3. Getting the EU to agree on anything is very difficult, since they first have to agree with each other, before they can agree with anyone else. They prefer diplomacy and inaction to brute force and action.

They have seen what happened in Iraq, and they have no intention of repeating that. WW1 and WW2 were very hard on Europe, and have caused much resentment towards war. Today they would rather ignore the problem then do something.

4. Europe has an gaing population and an influx of immigrants from former colonies and the Middle East. Many EU countries are having to deal the issue of rising numbers of non European immigrants with different cultural values, traditions and ideas.

5. The US economy is not the mighty economy it once was, but it is still the number one world economy. The reasons I believe America's economy has declined a bit are as follows.

1. We import more then we export (aka trade deficit)

2. Dependence on Foreign oil

3. We shipped most of our manufacturing jobs to Asia and Latin America.

Look at the mass Industrialization of the USA during WW2, and compare that to today. American used to have tons of textile factories, but now we have almost zero.

4. If you go to a Walmart or Target, most products will say made in a country other than America. (China, Mexica, Brazil, etc.)

5. America has been in debt since the 1830's and its getting worse. Surely trillions of dollars in debt has to be dealt with eventually?

The Democrats always complain about the debt, yet they offer to solution to fix the problem.

6. Free Trade agreements

7. US corporations make all this money, but where does it go? Executives, stock holders and investers get most of the money. Thats the reason for shipping all the jobs overseas and trying to keep the costs down. How much money do these big name corporations actually re-invest in the economy? How does the economy benefit from a few people filling their pockets with money?

[Statalyzer]

How much money do these big name corporations actually re-invest in the economy?

A gigantic mass of it, actually.

1. America is stupid for always putting their nose in other peoples business so it America's own fault for having so many people angry at them. Once America stops doing this I am sure we would have less problems.

I'm not so sure about that. Let's say that today we began pulling every troop we have out of Iraq and Afghanistan, ignored Iran and North Korea. As soon as the next fight broke out in one of those areas, the USA is going to get blamed for it, and people in whichever country or region starts getting the crap beat out of them will start asking the USA to move in and help them.

You wanna know who the biggest material contributor to the Taliban regime was? Not Iran, not Pakistan, it was the US of A.

Yep, they were fighting against the USSR so we figured the enemy of our enemy was our friend. If there's any lesson we should have learned by now from WW2 & the Cold War, it's that the enemy of our enemy is not our friend. Unfortunately we didn't completely learn that - see Saudi Arabia, a corrupt, opressive, oil-grubbing government that we consider a close ally in the Middle East just because they don't like Bin Laden.

Also, we need to realize that the friend of our enemy is also not our friend. When we toppled Saddam's regime we were fighting against mostly French and Russian weapons. People accused us of going to war for oil, but the truth is the French and Russians were the ones doing corrupt things for oil. The French also supplied our enemies in Vietnam even though we were fighting against the same guys who had just kicked the French out. This sort of BS has to stop.

They have seen what happened in Iraq, and they have no intention of repeating that. WW1 and WW2 were very hard on Europe, and have caused much resentment towards war. Today they would rather ignore the problem then do something.

That attitude after WW1 was a big contributor towards WW2 happening.


I believe Benjamin Franklin once said, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"

We are doing just that, and I think the Founding Fathers are most likely rolling in their graves.

What essential liberties have we given up?