Trouble Against Humvee Attacks

[Me Myself & Pi]

The answers I might get in this topic may be in the topic "How Not To Spam Humvees" but since there's nine pages of it, I'd prefer not to go through them.

I can't believe how destructive these humvee attacks are! Now 2 or 3 can be delt with, but when the enemy stocks up to about 10 humvees, all with missle defenders in them, I can barely get one destroyed with a reasonable attack force! For example, I just played a 2 player map today being Laser General against Air Force. This was just a normal quick match game with no rules. He initially sent a combat chinook, but I had acouple of avengers already built (I always build some against Air Force) & took him by suprise. It went down easy! I kept a watch on him with my spy sattelight as I built my base and attack force. From what I saw, he had only accouple humvees. I sent an attack force with with 4 laser tanks, 2 avengers, & two humvee with some infantry in them.

When I got to his base, he had about about 10 to 13 humvees mostly filled! (I obviosly didn't scan in the right place.) I barely destoyed anything when my force was destroyed. Soon after, he sent his humvees with his own avengers! I knew I didn't stand a chance so I didn't waste my time & resigned.

What would've you guys have done in this situation if you knew he was stocking up on humvees? I also have trouble on this on Tournament Island where the enemy stocks up on humvees too. What do you guys think is best, some kind of great strategy that you may know, or leave the game as soon as attacked?

[Daishi]

It's as simple as this. Humvees w/infantry counter humvees w/infantry best, and you, as laser, get them $100 cheaper than he does. So get spamming. Since you're fighting USAF as Laser, its good for you to throw in an Avenger or two to punish aircraft interference, but make sure you don't use these things to block his humvee missiles, because they'll get targeted and wasted. Better to leave them out of the way, to snipe out drones and KRs.

Avenger + Pathfinder + Laser Tank can achieve outstanding victories in these situations against other USAs. But you really don't want to give USAF extra incentive to knock out your power, because he will have no problem achieving that. On that note, I honestly can't recommend Laser Tanks against another USA outside of that combo. Better against Chinas.

A second option would be comanches with rocket pods (you can devastate him during the vee standoff) This will take a long time to prepare, though, and you need to keep USAF busy during that time.

Oh, and USAF on Tournament Desert? No matter WHAT the rules, you won't beat it.

[Me Myself & Pi]

Thanks for that advise! But the Comanches wouldn't have worked well in the situation do to his avengers. But since he had avengers, I probably would've built an attack force to destroy his since his avengers slowed down the group.

I didn't think air force general had more expensive Humvee! I've been playing the game for a year & half & didn't know that! I thought you got mixed up with the SW General's Humvee until I checked out the INI file.

[C4]

It's as simple as this. Humvees w/infantry counter humvees w/infantry best, and you, as laser, get them $100 cheaper than he does. So get spamming.
Just to add: LL is the best anti-vee tactic available. Non USAs just DON'T have any real counter. That's the sad true...
USAs are just about micro (no real strategy or mixing are needed), an all or nothing faction. And for me, this is the biggest flaw of ZH.

Oh, and USAF on Tournament Desert? No matter WHAT the rules, you won't beat it.
Another sad true... but it's 1.04, enough said!
BTW, i've never realized what kind of penalty is the lack of tanks to USAf or SWgen when the ONLY (sadly) real unit is the MDvee... With ideas like these some games will never reach its potential.

To Mr Pi: Get used to it, vees are uncounterable (by Chinas or GLAs) if they are being controlled by any decent player.
Ever realized why "all" QMs opponents u find, are USAf or Toxin? Hmmm!... Maybe it's not a quest for a real challenge...

[yurihomer]

usa vs usa, just lazer lock them using missile defenders. u got cheaper hummvies as well

[Derek]

Non USAs just DON'T have any real counter. That's the sad true...
USAs are just about micro (no real strategy or mixing are needed), an all or nothing faction. And for me, this is the biggest flaw of ZH.
So wrong. Play a good China or GLA and you will realise that 1) MDvees have counters, 2) USA needs strategy and mixing, and 3) USA still needs even more micro than you think. Yeah, USA is the micro faction, that much you got right.

[Zancloufer27]

Migs/Mass buggies pwn MDvees. Also, Mass TH + Gatt + ECM pwns vees also. Pretech vees can't really stop toxin tunnels either :p

[C4]

So wrong. Play a good China or GLA and you will realise that 1) MDvees have counters, 2) USA needs strategy and mixing, and 3) USA still needs even more micro than you think. Yeah, USA is the micro faction, that much you got right.

No Derek, this time we don't agree. And it is not that wrong. And i've played good Chinas and GLAs as USA and if i lost, it was for my incompetence and lack of micro. BTW i'm talking about the 1.04 version with the dreadful healing ambu. 1.05 changes prices on some units and balances the thing a bit.

1) Yes, they have one. The only real counter to MDvees is incompetence from the user. And yes i'm aware that are units or moves (migs, buses, buggies and tunnel poping) that are useful against them. The problem is, they are not that appliable for any reason: cost, time taken or whatever. Maybe the tunnel poping is the most efficient so far but in most cases and particularly against China, a decent USA player don't lose a single vee, then there's only cash income and S&D (and many games don't even last that long).

2) Oh yes! Mixing of MDvees and ambus. The best mixing i usually see is some FBrangers against Chinas. About strategy (and i'll stop using this word because of its broad meaning) and planing, is always the same and the best unit u do have as USA is the MDvee and u know this is mostly what u'll build and train, every game, right from the first second. But what else should u, if it excels in everything pre tech situation and also most teched?
The only planing required is in the BO. Other than that and its only about controling your 2-3 vees.

3) More micro than i think? I'm aware that USA is the faction that needs micro the most. Just make their units unkillable is the part that annoys me.
A RTS can't be just about micro or it will turn into something like the game Snake. When u do have a game where pure micro beats every good plan, something sick goes with it. And if u see some replays of good players (and i'm sure u've seen many) u'll know what i mean.

I know this chat should sound a deja-vu to u but i just can't think funny of a game where a player just builds a supply, 6 MDs, an WF and 2 vees to win the game against other awake player. so i usually don't appreciate most USA games. Thera are exceptions but they are rare.


Migs/Mass buggies pwn MDvees. Also, Mass TH + Gatt + ECM pwns vees also. Pretech vees can't really stop toxin tunnels either :pI've already answered above about it. BTW how much migs can u build until 2-3 vees screw your entire base? And sorry but pretech vees can stop toxin tunnels if backed up with ambu with relative easiness just by micro.

[Daishi]

No Derek, this time we don't agree. And it is not that wrong. And I've played good Chinas and GLAs as USA and if i lost, it was for my incompetence and lack of micro. BTW I'm talking about the 1.04 version with the dreadful healing ambu. 1.05 changes prices on some units and balances the thing a bit.

Duh. With perfect micro, you can get away with no-economy BOs. But you won't have perfect micro when your enemy is advancing on each side of the field on top of you, like China and GLA can do.

1) Yes, they have one. The only real counter to MDvees is incompetence from the user. And yes i'm aware that are units or moves (migs, buses, buggies and tunnel popping) that are useful against them. The problem is, they are not that applicable for any reason: cost, time taken or whatever. Maybe the tunnel popping is the most efficient so far but in most cases and particularly against China, a decent USA player don't lose a single vee, then there's only cash income and S&D (and many games don't even last that long).

Migs, busses, buggies aren't applicable? Lolwut? Busses get an armor/speed bonus that makes them worth the extra 300, just put 2-3 RPG troopers in each one instead of filling it up and throw in a few rebels in, in case they evac/LL, and they'll outlast MDvees in direct combat. With the vChina BO I use, you can have 2 BN migs up by the time his first rockvee arrives, assuming he doesn't go for a forward rax/WF, a very risky build against a China. And Gatt + infantry with minimal micro will halt a bunch of pretech vees for as long as you need them to.

2) Oh yes! Mixing of MDvees and ambus. The best mixing i usually see is some FBrangers against Chinas. About strategy (and i'll stop using this word because of its broad meaning) and planing, is always the same and the best unit u do have as USA is the MDvee and u know this is mostly what u'll build and train, every game, right from the first second. But what else should u, if it excels in everything pre-tech situation and also most teched?
The only planing required is in the BO. Other than that and its only about controlling your 2-3 vees.Sure. You'll block him from killing your nooks with AA down both sides with 2-3 vees. And USA as planning/strategic as any faction that goes against them. It's just that they tend to use a predictable variation of units. What they do with them (the risks taken) is where the strategic decisions come in. USA punishes mistakes made by its players the hardest, because MDvees are expensive and take a long time to mass.

3) More micro than i think? I'm aware that USA is the faction that needs micro the most. Just make their units unkillable is the part that annoys me.
A RTS can't be just about micro or it will turn into something like the game Snake. When u do have a game where pure micro beats every good plan, something sick goes with it. And if u see some replays of good players (and i'm sure u've seen many) u'll know what i mean.
Pure micro beats every good plan? Since decently micro'd vees are the only hope for USA players against a decent China or GLA, this is a good thing. :D

It's not like Snake because there's always more than one target for you, and there's always more than one target for your enemy. You have to make sacrifices, seize opportunities, take risks. And its **** hard to micro well on every front at once, as I've said. In short, USA, when overwhelmed, cannot maintain effective vee micro, and it's not as hard to do for factions like China.

I know this chat should sound a deja-vu to u but i just can't think funny of a game where a player just builds a supply, 6 MDs, an WF and 2 vees to win the game against other awake player. so i usually don't appreciate most USA games. There are exceptions but they are rare.
Most games are exceptions. That description represents a match between a player with good vee micro and someone incapable of defending himself against it or making use of other battlefronts, which should be taken as the rare exception if we're talking about a game between two equal players on a balanced map.

I've already answered above about it. BTW how much migs can u build until 2-3 vees screw your entire base? And sorry but pretech vees can stop toxin tunnels if backed up with ambu with relative easiness just by micro.
2 BN Migs if done right, and assuming he doesn't go forward WF on TD.
Not if you take the free Toxin RPG troopers into account.

[Derek]

No Derek, this time we don't agree. And it is not that wrong. And i've played good Chinas and GLAs as USA and if i lost, it was for my incompetence and lack of micro. BTW i'm talking about the 1.04 version with the dreadful healing ambu. 1.05 changes prices on some units and balances the thing a bit.
Disagreement is perfectly fine, I'll just have to prove you wrong :p

1) Yes, they have one. The only real counter to MDvees is incompetence from the user. And yes i'm aware that are units or moves (migs, buses, buggies and tunnel poping) that are useful against them. The problem is, they are not that appliable for any reason: cost, time taken or whatever. Maybe the tunnel poping is the most efficient so far but in most cases and particularly against China, a decent USA player don't lose a single vee, then there's only cash income and S&D (and many games don't even last that long).
Buggies perfectly hard counter non-S&D vees, with S&D they are still hard counters but requires USA-like micro. And always keep Jarmen nearby to take care of MDs trying to LL. Busses don't work well directly against MDvees, but they're deadly to flank a USA base with while he is trying to out-micro your buggies. MiGs are another near-perfect hard counter. Keep a gatt tank or two near your AF so he can't (without significant risk) MDvee or Crusader drop your field and it will be a nightmare for USA. The key for China is getting the middle supplies, and the key for GLA is to keep map control with tunnels and delay him with tech terror until you can get upgraded buggys.

2) Oh yes! Mixing of MDvees and ambus. The best mixing i usually see is some FBrangers against Chinas. About strategy (and i'll stop using this word because of its broad meaning) and planing, is always the same and the best unit u do have as USA is the MDvee and u know this is mostly what u'll build and train, every game, right from the first second. But what else should u, if it excels in everything pre tech situation and also most teched?
The only planing required is in the BO. Other than that and its only about controling your 2-3 vees.
First of all I'm mainly talking about vUSA here. Crusaders are crutial against China, Avengers are very useful once they get MiGs. Tomahawks are good against both GLA and China, Commanchees are the best counter to buggies, and Raptors are great against GLAs who have heavily tunneled the map. In almost every USA game I play I use some of these units as a critical part of my strategy, because MDvees alone just don't cut it against good players. In fact, MDvees are virtually useless defensively against a China with ECMs. A Crusaders/LL/Tomahawks combo is much more effective (the vees are still best for attacking though).

Daishi covered the strategy involved pretty well. It all about choosing the right variations, and it can make a huge difference.

I know this chat should sound a deja-vu to u but i just can't think funny of a game where a player just builds a supply, 6 MDs, an WF and 2 vees to win the game against other awake player. so i usually don't appreciate most USA games. Thera are exceptions but they are rare.
Two MDvees? You can't win with that. You need much more to launch an effective offensive against either China or GLA. You can use one to dozer hunt and raid supplies against China, but that means you'll need yet another at your base to defend effectively.

Pretech vees can't really stop toxin tunnels either
Yeah they can, easily. MDs outrange tox tunnels, so just sit where you can attack but the tunnel can't. GG tunnel.


You shouldn't look at MDvees as a unit that is too good against everything, but as a unit that forms the backbone of an army, around which everything else is planned. This is the same role that Quads and Gatts play for GLA and China, its just more extreme with USA because MDvees cost so much.

[yurihomer]

china vs usa could be hard. even hard if ur opponent is good at map awaness and micro. there are situations where i just can't beat some usa players using china.

[C4]

Duh. With perfect micro, you can get away with no-economy BOs.Sad.

But you won't have perfect micro when your enemy is advancing on each side of the field on top of you, like China and GLA can do.GLA can be annoying with a flanking tunnel. China just don't have the chance.
Migs, busses, buggies aren't applicable? Lolwut? Busses get an armor/speed bonus that makes them worth the extra 300, just put 2-3 RPG troopers in each one instead of filling it up and throw in a few rebels in, in case they evac/LL, and they'll outlast MDvees in direct combat.
U've just presented us with a good use of the bus, but it will be LLocked anyways, and how could u stall an USA player for that long, to have a bus, if not by sacrificing tons of units to its vees? Pathfinders are right on the way to completly shut down any infantry u could possible make use of.
With the vChina BO I use, you can have 2 BN migs up by the time his first rockvee arrives, assuming he doesn't go for a forward rax/WF, a very risky build against a China. And Gatt + infantry with minimal micro will halt a bunch of pretech vees for as long as you need them to.How? To have BNmigs u do need to have your WF (and i mean a lone WF, since u can't afford 2 WF + AF + 2 migs + BN) locked down for long enough to have a MDvee running through middle to rock n' roll.

Sure. You'll block him from killing your nooks with AA down both sides with 2-3 vees.
A flanking gatt can just be LLocked by 2 MDs at the expense of one. With 3 MD u may even not lose any of 'em. And as soon as u can, a vee or maybe a FB completely blocks the flank (GLA can be more resourceful here but China just don't).

And USA as planning/strategic as any faction that goes against them. It's just that they tend to use a predictable variation of units. What they do with them (the risks taken) is where the strategic decisions come in. USA punishes mistakes made by its players the hardest, because MDvees are expensive and take a long time to mass.
"USA punishes mistakes made by its players the hardest"! Hands down. Its precisely the all-or-nothing concept that screws the thing up.

Pure micro beats every good plan? Since decently micro'd vees are the only hope for USA players against a decent China or GLA, this is a good thing. :DThis is not a good thing IMO. The "are the only hope" part is the saddest of them all.

It's not like Snake because...
It was not to be taken literaly:D. Just to have an idea how "near" an only-micro based game/faction can be of an action game. It feels like some old spaceship games where u do control an hero ship against hordes of mindless and worthless enemy ships, where your work was to keep the unit untouched by enemy fire. One shot,...life lost! And such games were not RTS right?
It's another fairly exagerated comparison but it serves my point.

Most games are exceptions. That description represents a match between a player with good vee micro and someone incapable of defending himself against it or making use of other battlefronts, which should be taken as the rare exception if we're talking about a game between two equal players on a balanced map.
Most games are exceptions? :chin: Hmmm
And i'm talking about GOOD players and in TD.

2 BN Migs if done right, and assuming he doesn't go forward WF on TD.
Not if you take the free Toxin RPG troopers into account.
Assuming... And he dosn't need to go forward WF. Vees are fast enough.
RPGs that can easily be crushed by the ambu.

First of all I'm mainly talking about vUSA here. Crusaders are crutial against China, Avengers are very useful once they get MiGs. Tomahawks are good against both GLA and China, Commanchees are the best counter to buggies, and Raptors are great against GLAs who have heavily tunneled the map. In almost every USA game I play I use some of these units as a critical part of my strategy, because MDvees alone just don't cut it against good players. In fact, MDvees are virtually useless defensively against a China with ECMs. A Crusaders/LL/Tomahawks combo is much more effective (the vees are still best for attacking though).First i must say vUSA is the most enjoyable to play and to see playing, precisely for its broader options. Options those, which are mostly unnecessary... The good thing should be having them really needed.

Two MDvees? You can't win with that. You need much more to launch an effective offensive against either China or GLA. You can use one to dozer hunt and raid supplies against China, but that means you'll need yet another at your base to defend effectively.
Ok, maybe I can't but any good USA can. In true, one single vee with 3-4 MDs can ride through (USA knows about China BO) unchecked and bring China to its knees in seconds (supply, power, u name it...) while other(s) can stay back to hold gatts futile attemps. Even if China uses its infantry to try to scare the vee away (it can't catch it anyway), it may be too costly by that time (at least one supply down and maybe a successful dozer hunt), then it's hard to China to keep pressure on the USA flanks. No money no gatts nor TC.

You shouldn't look at MDvees as a unit that is too good against everything, but as a unit that forms the backbone of an army, around which everything else is planned. This is the same role that Quads and Gatts play for GLA and China, its just more extreme with USA because MDvees cost so much.
U probably aren't comparing MDvees to gatts/quads, are u?:chin:
The fact is, they ARE good against practically everything. And the word extreme fits them perfectly.

china vs usa could be hard. even hard if ur opponent is good at map awaness and micro. there are situations where i just can't beat some USA players using China.
Every USA player MUST be good about map awareness (drones) and micro (vees). USA is all about it.
Yeah, sometimes if your opponent don't mismicro, then it can't be done.
U as a good China player, felt it on your own skin, surely.

Thx to all of u for answering my little "rant". Sorry if i brought it too bothering. I do still like this game. There are particular points, like having an unit that can decimate a legion of well placed and directed enemy units at no real expense, that pisses me off though! And for that i must sometimes take a break before making another attemp at believing ZH can be fairly an evenly played. How naive!
BTW everybody, don't forget to have a game or two as a ChinaVsUSA (and aim for good opponents with good net connections:happysad:) to remind u how this subject rolls.
Phew! Hope my boogie vee to leave me for some time.

[Derek]

GLA can be annoying with a flanking tunnel. China just don't have the chance.
Gatts down three flanks are just as bad as flank tunnels, maybe worse.

A flanking gatt can just be LLocked by 2 MDs at the expense of one. With 3 MD u may even not lose any of 'em. And as soon as u can, a vee or maybe a FB completely blocks the flank (GLA can be more resourceful here but China just don't).
That doesn't work for very long. You'll be overrun pretty fast if you try to hold off gatts with LL MDs alone.

"USA punishes mistakes made by its players the hardest"! Hands down. Its precisely the all-or-nothing concept that screws the thing up.
Its not all or nothing, more brutal. Keep in mind also that while USA punishes mistakes the hardest, USA's own mistake are punished just as hard, so its not unfair.

This is not a good thing IMO. The "are the only hope" part is the saddest of them all.
Perfect micro isn't actually seen. Even when the best players are playing, its easy to spot their micro mistakes, you just can't be everywhere at once.

Most games are exceptions? :chin: Hmmm
And i'm talking about GOOD players and in TD.
I'm a good player. I have a lot of trouble beating equally good China and GLA players. I think the problem is that you're just not good enough with China and GLA to use the counters well.

Options those, which are mostly unnecessary... The good thing should be having them really needed.
They're really not unnecessary. Crusaders against China relieve a lot of your micro burden, allowing you to better micro your vees. Its much easier to overwhelm a China without Crusaders or Firebases providing support. Against GLA Commanchees are a must of they can micro their buggies well. Although there are tricks you can use as USA to counter buggies with vees, they won't work (or they will work very poorly) against a GLA player who can micro buggies.

Ok, maybe I can't but any good USA can. In true, one single vee with 3-4 MDs can ride through (USA knows about China BO) unchecked and bring China to its knees in seconds (supply, power, u name it...) while other(s) can stay back to hold gatts futile attemps. Even if China uses its infantry to try to scare the vee away (it can't catch it anyway), it may be too costly by that time (at least one supply down and maybe a successful dozer hunt), then it's hard to China to keep pressure on the USA flanks. No money no gatts nor TC.
No, a good USA can't win with two vees. You try to attack early like that and you can do some good damage, but your vees will get trapped against the side of the map and destroyed by gatts. Thats a huge monetary loss right there, if you didn't do more damage than that, your attack failed. Thats why when I attack early against China I use Hellvees, not MDvees.

U probably aren't comparing MDvees to gatts/quads, are u?:chin:
The fact is, they ARE good against practically everything. And the word extreme fits them perfectly.
I am. They are all the backbone units of their factions, they're all early game units, and they are all quite flexible (the gatts least).


If either you or Chevy want to have a game over this, just PM me (hopefully sometime this weekend).

[C4]

Gatts down three flanks are just as bad as flank tunnels, maybe worse.I was talking about TD.

Its not all or nothing, more brutal. Keep in mind also that while USA punishes mistakes the hardest, USA's own mistake are punished just as hard, so its not unfair.
Me an Daishi were talking about USA being punished not punishing. And the unfair precisely comes from the fact that vees punish MUCH more than what they are punished. Most times they're not punished at all.

I'm a good player. I have a lot of trouble beating equally good China and GLA players. I think the problem is that you're just not good enough with China and GLA to use the counters well.
Derek, it's not me or my playing what is on the table. In fact, had some inactivity the last 2 weeks (no opponents to play in the LAN nor even the crappy conection i borrow sometimes) so it's not about anything related to any of my games the motive of my point. It's mostly by seeing some ROTW on GR and other plays with good players (i really do like appreciate a good match). It happened to me before, right, but, at best, i did have found few good USAs in the QM. And i've won many games (due to catching naive vees with old vetTC/TH/gatt combo). The problem is: if i consider my options serioulsy, as a China player against any USA, i can figure how impossible it is to beat such things. U're right when u say "nobody micro it flawlessly", right, but, if he does? Am i playing a game where i'm handicapped no matter good i do play?

No, a good USA can't win with two vees. You try to attack early like that and you can do some good damage, but your vees will get trapped against the side of the map and destroyed by gatts. Thats a huge monetary loss right there, if you didn't do more damage than that, your attack failed. Thats why when I attack early against China I use Hellvees, not MDvees.I've see your hellvee in action more than once and the only purpose of choosing hellvee instead of a common 3 MDvee is the rush time (which is not that faster). The extra price for a 3 MDvee (+$400) is fair for the ammount of damage it can deal in the enemy base even if catched, not to mention that is easier to a quad/gatt to chew your helldrone ($500 loss) than catch the vee itself.


If either you or Chevy want to have a game over this, just PM me (hopefully sometime this weekend).
U may be sure i'd like to, but my conection does not allow me to have a good performance. I must stick with Chinas (slower unit that don't require quick moves so often) in QM due to my 1-2 sec delay connection (i'm not kidding, sometimes it takes 1-2 sec to respond. Imagine what is microing aircraft, buggies or vees,...:dead:. No chance). If not i'd play with GLAs, specially Stealth, that is one of my favorite (and with a better chance against USAs). In the LAN, oh,... things are totally different. There micro can be used properly.

In resume, not to mention your good playing i could not pose a challenge in this circumstances, so it would be pointless. I do have a friend with good internet connection. If i find myself in his house with my ZH in it, i'll let u know with a PM. In 1.05e, of course!
BTW, are u an Himachi user? It sounds a good option now to arrange 1.05e matches. Once i get a good connection (in Portugal it is expensive) himachi will be the right option. It seems the future. Ah, meanwhile if odds make u find me in the 1vs1 lobby (maybe tomorrow) don't hesitate and make yourself noticed. I'll be a China sitting duck to shoot. :gnarly:

[Derek]

I was talking about TD.
I was too, I guess I shouldn't have called the middle a flank but thats beside the point.

Me an Daishi were talking about USA being punished not punishing. And the unfair precisely comes from the fact that vees punish MUCH more than what they are punished. Most times they're not punished at all.
Thats not the point. USA can punish an opponent's mistakes to devestating effect, which is what you and Daishi said. This is true, but USA is also punished the hardest for its mistakes. Miss a gatt coming down a flank? You're economy is seriously slowed, at best its temporary, but its also not hard to lose a nook. Send a vee a little too close to the enemy, it doesn't take much to put a vee in red, and then its easy pickings. So as much as USA can punish its opponent's mistakes, its opponent can do the same.

It's mostly by seeing some ROTW on GR and other plays with good players (i really do like appreciate a good match).
A lot of those end with China winning. USA is so busy defending that they can't stop China from getting 3 or even 4 supplies, and then the additional MiGs and units that follow overwhelm them. It sounds backwards but USA is most likely to beat China at the beginning of the match, they don't start gaining the upperhand again until the ultra-late game when there are no more supplies left.

U're right when u say "nobody micro it flawlessly", right, but, if he does? Am i playing a game where i'm handicapped no matter good i do play?
Perfect play does not matter if perfect play is unattainable. There is such a thing as a "perfect game" in Chess, which represents the best possible play by both players, and has the same outcome every time (player 1 wins, player 2 wins, or stalemate). Considering this Chess would seem like a pretty boring game: You're either making a mistake, or you already know the outcome. But this isn't the case, because no one knows what the perfect game is, and we are far from finding it. When discussing chess strategy people don't account for perfect play, they account for the best play that their opponent can manage, which is almost definately imperfect. Now consider ZH (or any RTS): Its not a perfect information game, and its not turn based. This makes the game even less predictable and further from perfect play. So clearly it doesn't matter what perfect play is, because perfect play will never happen. Realistically people can only micro so much at a time, and you can exploit this to reliably win against USA.

I've see your hellvee in action more than once and the only purpose of choosing hellvee instead of a common 3 MDvee is the rush time (which is not that faster). The extra price for a 3 MDvee (+$400) is fair for the ammount of damage it can deal in the enemy base even if catched, not to mention that is easier to a quad/gatt to chew your helldrone ($500 loss) than catch the vee itself.
The time is a big factor, waiting for the MDs means I will have to use that MDvee for defense, not harassment, but the cost plays a role too. Once in his base I'm not going to be attacking Gatts, whether I have an MDvee or Hellvee, and dozers and trucks are easy targets anyways, so the weakened firepower doesn't make a bit difference, whereas that $400 put much that much closer to my next MDvee at my base, for defense. This is just an example of a strategic choice that USA has though.

If i find myself in his house with my ZH in it, i'll let u know with a PM. In 1.05e, of course!
1.05e wouldn't serve to prove either of our points here, but if its just a ffg you want then thats fine.

BTW, are u an Himachi user? It sounds a good option now to arrange 1.05e matches. Once i get a good connection (in Portugal it is expensive) himachi will be the right option. It seems the future. Ah, meanwhile if odds make u find me in the 1vs1 lobby (maybe tomorrow) don't hesitate and make yourself noticed. I'll be a China sitting duck to shoot. :gnarly:
I have Hamachi, if you want to play over it we can, but its not the future. You can only practically play people you know, and only if they happen to be online. Not really very useful (I've hardly ever used it).

[yurihomer]

there is one strategy where china just can't beat usa.

usa start, build up base, 1 supply, 1 power, 1 barrack, 1 war factory. get 2 hummvies and 1 ambulance. fill them up with missile defenders. china pretty much have no counter to that. unless u know he is going for that and have some tank hunters. only way i see china winning is by sneaking in a dragon tank by luck

[Derek]

Thats just a typical one supply BO, except you forgot the fast Strat center. And it can be countered just as well as the other USA strats. Since he will have less money its easier to pressure him, but since his base is less spread out he can defend it better. But he can't stop you from expanding to the middle well, so do that fast and get some MiGs up along with your 2-3 WFs and you've got him.

[C4]

Well put yuri! that's precisely the example situation of an helpless China. And take in consideration that dragon luck don't count here. A single LL will stop it. The TH are expensive enough to slow your production early and as soon as USA sees the middle TH (i assume u put'em middle) the vees are heading right next to the undefended supplies.
Derek, when a pair of vees is crumbling your entire base u don't have money to pressure anything, let alone rise 2 WF!:rolleyes:

about Hamachi: It looks good by 2 things; the better connection performance and QM is only about 1.04 crap anyways. It requires a PM or msn to arrange but it's worth the effort. One can have very good challenges i hope!

[Derek]

Derek, when a pair of vees is crumbling your entire base u don't have money to pressure anything, let alone rise 2 WF!:rolleyes:
The BO isn't hardly any faster than a standard two supply, the WF (which is the key) comes out at the same time:

Dozer 1: Power>Barracks>Strat Center
Dozer 2: Supply>WF

vs.

Dozer 1: Power>Supply>Barracks
Dozer 2: Supply>WF

The worse they can do is put a couple extra MDs in the first vee, but you'll still be attacking with 2 WFs by the time its ready, so they still must defend. The advantage of this WF is not in its speed, its the fast Strat Center for S&D and the small base thats difficult to attack, but this can be overcome with a superior economy.

[C4]

No words needed!:|

[Daishi]

Lol, China rear build against USA forward build... never fun... You didn't go aggressive on his center structures while he was on the prowl; need I remind you how much trouble USA has being effective everywhere at once?

A dragon at the base or nuke BMs from two sides would have given that rush hell, too. Gattspam isn't everything, you know. :D

[C4]

Lol, China rear build against USA forward build... never fun... You didn't go aggressive on his center structures while he was on the prowl; need I remind you how much trouble USA has being effective everywhere at once?

A dragon at the base or nuke BMs from two sides would have given that rush hell, too. Gattspam isn't everything, you know. :D
lol, Daishi. If only China players had spydrones or the gift of prediction... they would send a dragon, assuming the opponent have $0 cash and no MD left to LL the Dragon. Remember that when playing there's fog-of-war... I couldn't see what u do in the replay. Anyway it was not the point. The point is the invulnerability of vees, a fact that screws ZH completely. Sincerely i've thought better of this game in the past. The more i see USA games (not only mine... let me remind) the less i do care about it. And with the ambu... that one just kills me:gnarly:

Even so, the guy was a player from the clan egc from the CW and he was about to lose his chinook (should u read, the game) for just a little.:D

And u can't call gattspam to my 2 gatts (no time to do much more). In true, they were to attack the incoming drop i've seen with my forward THs.

[Daishi]

The point is the invulnerability of vees, a fact that screws ZH completely. Sincerely i've thought better of this game in the past. The more i see USA games (not only mine... let me remind) the less i do care about it. And with the ambu... that one just kills me:gnarly:

OK... I'm beginning to think you're suggesting MDvees are overpowered, and even with godly micro, those expensive units costing $1600 each by default (in this instance, your opponent paid 2350 per vee), are far from invulnerable if you get to prepare for it. Ambulance support is simply a boost to make this massive investment easier to keep alive. By this token, Overlords also take extra effort to destroy.

Even so, the guy was a player from the clan egc from the CW and he was about to lose his chinook (should u read, the game) for just a little.:D

50% strats like that are always a thrill to kill. ^_^

[Derek]

No words needed!:|
That was an all-or-nothing strat, it really doesn't count for this discussion. In cases like this you can easily be caught off guard and destroyed, but you can just as easily catch him and win. As China I would highly advise against getting a fast rax against USA, its only useful for oil capture but the delay in your BO will be too much. Instead send your second dozer to your main supplies right after it comes out for the fastest possible WF and gatt, you'll get your secondary slower but that first gatt is very important. Had you done these two things you would have had your first gatt out ~2-3 seconds faster (and your second that much faster as well), which would have made the difference in shooting down his nook. If he doesn't go for the drop (which would probably have been better for him) then you won't have that weakness to exploit, but he will be a little slower, allowing you to prepare a bit more. You know by now that he is going all-or-nothing so get a dragon instead out at your secondary, since he won't see it and you can probably catch his base undefended. Mines also can work sometimes in these situations, but its a gamble. All you have to do though is stop his one attack, so devote everything to that, you can ignore long term goals like establishing an economy as soon as you know what he is doing. These strats are very risky, he will either lose quickly or win quickly, and a lot of it has to do with luck that you can't control, but its not OP (trust me, if it was, you would see it every game).

[C4]

By this token, Overlords also take extra effort to destroy.
Overlords do have enemies...and can't run away from them![/quote]

That was an all-or-nothing strat, it really doesn't count for this discussion. In cases like this you can easily be caught off guard and destroyed, but you can just as easily catch him and win.
In true, i just had a slight chance to "win" (this wasn't even a real game imo) just because he wanted to use the drop. If it wasn't for that and i wouldn't have any chance against his vees nonetheless. That's the point.
As China I would highly advise against getting a fast rax against USA, its only useful for oil capture but the delay in your BO will be too much.Forward barracks is absolutely needed to garrison middle against a middle vee rush that is imediately unstopable.

Instead send your second dozer to your main supplies right after it comes out for the fastest possible WF and gatt, you'll get your secondary slower but that first gatt is very important. Had you done these two things you would have had your first gatt out ~2-3 seconds faster (and your second that much faster as well), which would have made the difference in shooting down his nook. If he doesn't go for the drop (which would probably have been better for him) then you won't have that weakness to exploit, but he will be a little slower, allowing you to prepare a bit more.As i told, the chinook looks to me like a little joke, here. It was never necessary.
"allowing you to prepare a bit more"? With what? That's the point. There's nothing to be prepared with against it.

You know by now that he is going all-or-nothing so get a dragon instead out at your secondary, since he won't see it and you can probably catch his base undefended.
How can a China know he's completely broke? A single MD can absolutely stop* any dragon attempt.
Mines also can work sometimes in these situations, but its a gamble. All you have to do though is stop his one attack, so devote everything to that, you can ignore long term goals like establishing an economy as soon as you know what he is doing.
Mines just don't work, since any decent USA will avoid buildings neighbouring and can punch from afar. "All you have to do though is stop his one attack"...Oh yeah, that's all i have to do...
These strats are very risky, he will either lose quickly or win quickly, and a lot of it has to do with luck that you can't control, but its not OP (trust me, if it was, you would see it every game).Risky, they are but not that much since they won't lose any unit anyway if he does the thing correctly (don't even need that much micro).
OP is not enough of a word to describe it...
"trust me, if it was, you would see it every game"? Oh, and u see it in most games vs any decent player (in only one day, with, let's say, 10 games i found 5 USAs and all of them tried the all-or-nothing drop. Killing his chinook resulted in imediate victory). Those other where u don't see it, it's just because the USA player don't know it well or don't manage to use it right.
Anyway, the simple fact of having it possible with no real defense than luck is sick.

Guess why most games u find in QM are USAs and toxin? Who knows, maybe for the easy (if not granted) win...;)
By now, i need to recharge my patience batteries and i'll just deny any USA game. Later we'll see... At least there's no more complaints for now :D Not to mention i've lost yesterday to the same guy for 3 times with the same (but very effective) strategy of LO spam. But in the third game he really had to sweat a bit. Tough guy! :D

[Derek]

Forward barracks is absolutely needed to garrison middle against a middle vee rush that is imediately unstopable.
No its not, in fact it was pretty obviously useless in this replay. You don't even know he going middle, so even if it was useful (which its not), you're risking your own BO on your opponent doing an all-or-nothing rush that probably won't occur. You would have been much better off without that barracks.

"allowing you to prepare a bit more"? With what? That's the point. There's nothing to be prepared with against it.
In a USA vs. China match every second counts in terms of getting units out faster. This is something you clearly don't understand.

How can a China know he's completely broke? A single MD can absolutely stop* any dragon attempt.
Once you've seen that he went forward or that he has gotten vees to you that fast, you know he has nothing in his base. Get a dragon.

Risky, they are but not that much since they won't lose any unit anyway if he does the thing correctly (don't even need that much micro).
You can definately stop his attack or destroy his base before he destroys yours.

"trust me, if it was, you would see it every game"? Oh, and u see it in most games vs any decent player (in only one day, with, let's say, 10 games i found 5 USAs and all of them tried the all-or-nothing drop.
You don't even see BOs like this in one in ten games, they're just too risky for good players to use. If you are really seeing them every game then use a dedicated counter BO, forward TH spam with no supplies might work. All-or-nothing attack, all-or-nothing defense. Of course you'll lose to anything else, but if all you're seeing is this middle build, you have nothing to worry about.

Guess why most games u find in QM are USAs and toxin? Who knows, maybe for the easy (if not granted) win...;)
USAF or Tox. Few people play SW, Laser, or vUSA in quickmatch, and the ones who do usually aren't good.


One other thing is that you were playing against a SW gen. SW gens are weak, and to win they often resort to extremely risky BOs like this, so when going against a SW be prepared for any thing, no matter how crazy it may seem.

[Daishi]

Overlords do have enemies...and can't run away from them!
That's besides the point. The point is that vees were made hard to kill because they're so expensive for a unit you need. The overlord was just another example, though they're slower and much, much hardier than vees.

I can't really explain much more, so we need to play some 1.04 so I can show you how "invincible" your humvees are.

USAF or Tox. Few people play SW, Laser, or vUSA in quickmatch, and the ones who do usually aren't good.
I always go random, so I get Laser and SWG alot. Which usually ends up in a dozer drop. :D

[C4]

No its not, in fact it was pretty obviously useless in this replay. You don't even know he going middle, so even if it was useful (which its not), you're risking your own BO on your opponent doing an all-or-nothing rush that probably won't occur. You would have been much better off without that barracks. Maybe so...


In a USA vs. China match every second counts in terms of getting units out faster. This is something you clearly don't understand. That was not polite! Am i being a moron to don't understand?


Once you've seen that he went forward or that he has gotten vees to you that fast, you know he has nothing in his base. Get a dragon. Let me remind u that he could have another nook and money enough to MD LL my dragon. I don't have a spydrone as China.


You don't even see BOs like this in one in ten games, they're just too risky for good players to use. If you are really seeing them every game then use a dedicated counter BO, forward TH spam with no supplies might work. All-or-nothing attack, all-or-nothing defense. Of course you'll lose to anything else, but if all you're seeing is this middle build, you have nothing to worry about.

I meant a 2 vee+ambu gg rush, not necessarily a middle-no-economy one.
TH spam with Nuke is very expensive and even so it can't hold USA as soon as FB researches.

The overlord was just another example, though they're slower and much, much hardier than vees...
... we need to play some 1.04 so I can show you how "invincible" your humvees are.

U're assuming, vees can be hit in return...
...We definetly need to play someday, but not necessarily to prove our points. I just have to have a better connection to give u fair challenge with random. I like to play with every gen.:D

Ah, and i finally beat that guy who'd beaten me for 3 times (were Nuke-China every game, me Nuke). Tough game, and the guy was polite. Great opponent.;)

[Derek]

Let me remind u that he could have another nook and money enough to MD LL my dragon. I don't have a spydrone as China.
Doesn't matter. Send the Dtank. Maybe it will fail, maybe it won't. Odds are he won't have a MD and/or won't be watching his base to LL it (remember he has to micro his MDvees very hard to keep them alive and not lose the game). Just because something might not work, doesn't mean it should never be done.

I meant a 2 vee+ambu gg rush, not necessarily a middle-no-economy one.
Again, the ambo will take extra time. Though it will make his force considerably stronger, use this chance to further prepare a counter.

TH spam with Nuke is very expensive and even so it can't hold USA as soon as FB researches.
Indeed it is, though not so expensive as to be useless. Again though, I don't think this is necessary, but it is an option.


I tried to find some similar replays on GR.org that I could reference, but I couldn't find any.

[yurihomer]

Doesn't matter. Send the Dtank. Maybe it will fail, maybe it won't. Odds are he won't have a MD and/or won't be watching his base to LL it (remember he has to micro his MDvees very hard to keep them alive and not lose the game). Just because something might not work, doesn't mean it should never be done.
thats my philosphy, just send 1 dragon down the flank and cross ur finger that it didn't encounter any rocket soldiers

[C4]

I'll try to be more faithful then...:D fingers crossed:D!

Edit: Oh Derek, wanna see what i've been talking about?! Go quickly download the ROTW from GR. Disgusting and sick to the bone!
A GLA with 4 supplies fell to 2 vees and an ambu... Just fits my point. Unfortunately, this time i'm sad being right.