Yuri, In my Humble Ininformed Opinion

[Zodiac]

I don't see how anyone thinks Yuri's is equal to the rest of the pack. Naval rush notwithstanding, he is the perfect opponent.

Every single one of his units are quirky characters which bring a unique ability to the battlefield, to defeat a certain type of unit. Gattlings destroy air and infantry. Masterminds + Magnetrons defeat all ground units. Lashers are time-wasting fodder whose sole purpose is to break walls and pick up crates.

IMHO, Yuri units are designed to defeat any specific type of unit by paper/scissor/rock. If you were to combine 10 of each unit from any faction and send them against 10 of Yuri's, Yuri's defeat them, because he would have paper, scissor, and rock in his pocket, and would toss all of those against you.

So where do people get this idea from, that Yuri's is a regular, defeatable faction? It's not.

[Statalyzer]

It's defeateable, that's for sure, but being Yuri gives you a distinct advantage, especially if someone plays Yuri a few times and gets used to him. I wouldn't be especially powerful as Yuri b/c I'm not used to the intracacies of that side, but I'd still win more games as Yuri than as any other team.

[SgtRicko]

It's like Stat said: you either know how to use him or you don't. For those who like to bum-rush and throw masses of units at the enemy mindlessly then Yuri is definately not going to operate well, but if you micro his forces and constantly deny territory from the enemy rather quickly then you will find him to be pretty hard to kill.

[truefeel]

It's like Stat said: you either know how to use him or you don't. For those who like to bum-rush and throw masses of units at the enemy mindlessly then Yuri is definately not going to operate well, but if you micro his forces and constantly deny territory from the enemy rather quickly then you will find him to be pretty hard to kill.

You don't need microing. using auto-mag is more then enough. The only thing you need to know to win alot with yuri is the basics.

[Statalyzer]

For those who like to bum-rush and throw masses of units at the enemy mindlessly then Yuri is definately not going to operate well

Well, he's as good at that as Allies are. But it's more like ok when I do get the Radar, when do I get the Battle Lab, can I afford to build X and Y at the same time, if I'm on defense should I mix this infantry in as a stop-gap, are tank bunkers ever worth it, what's a good gatt/lasher ratio, etc. Little stuff like that, you have to play Yuri consistently to learn and it makes you even harder to stop.

[sg500]

rock, paper, scissors, ect. your screwed if you vs yuri if your any other team but america, iraq,and great britian.Yuri has a good counter to all sides like you said but most countries dont have an answer for yuri.

example:
bomb truck vs yuri most likely wont work 9 out of 10 times


Sadly it takes a great sov or allied to beat an ok yuri.
If i could send in my input on the next patch it would go like this....

masterminds: have too much hp

disks: health rejuvenation is rediculous as well as their hp

boomers: nuff said

magnetrons: range should be equal to prizms tanks and not greater

chaos drone: could use a bit more armor

The rest of yuries army is fair and equal in respect to the other countries

[Statalyzer]

I'd also make Gatt Tanks have weaker armor so they can die from one plane shot the way FlakTraks and IFVs do.

[apple23]

definately true. Yuri's naval is the biggest imbalance there is, next to magnetrons an masterminds.
I think:

Reduce mastermind MC rate of fire and slightly reduce armor
Reduce magnetron range to that of a prism tank's or a cell or two less.
Up the magnetron to battle lab tech
Reduce psychic tower armor significantly
Reduce disk's speed or make it weaker
And don't even get me started on yuri's naval

[Statalyzer]

I don't think the psy tower is out of balance, but those other are good suggestions, especially Mag to Battle Lab level. Not sure what the point of Radar would be except as an in-between to get to the lab if that happened.

Maybe if Yuri had a full Navy (Boomers to Lab level, and give Yuri a normal ship and a radar-level ship, for example).

[Daishi]

Yuri cannot be balanced because he has such a small navy and can't effectively attack enemy vehicles without pacifying them in one hit with Magnetrons or psychic units. If you nerf the magnetron and mastermind enough to make them less OP, you'll have to buff his Lasher and Brute until they can match the Soviets in firepower.

[apple23]

But that would be balancing them, wouldn't it?:p
Trust me, balancing Yuri is possible, but it will be no easy task.Maybe if Yuri had a full Navy (Boomers to Lab level, and give Yuri a normal ship and a radar-level ship, for example).

That's roughly what i would have said if i had have gotten started on balancing yuri's navy. He definately needs a full navy to be balanced.

And yeah, i guess psy tower isn't imbalanced, it's just annoying to deal with. But so are all of yuri's other psychic toys.

[truefeel]

But that would be balancing them, wouldn't it?:p
Trust me, balancing Yuri is possible, but it will be no easy task.

That's roughly what i would have said if i had have gotten started on balancing yuri's navy. He definately needs a full navy to be balanced.

And yeah, i guess psy tower isn't imbalanced, it's just annoying to deal with. But so are all of yuri's other psychic toys.

Balancing yuri is very difficult. we and daishi are running a small balance mod (which haven't been developping for the past several months; we should get back to work, daishi :p) and it's very very difficult to get it tiptop balanced.

The psy tower is really different then the other medium-tier defences: tesla coils and prism towers need to be put up just before the opponent attacks; if you don't do that the coil/prism tower will get in the middle of the opponent tanks will not do much (as it will get destroyed fast). But if you do it the right way, it can do alot of damage.
A spy tower works different: in this cas you put it up right next to the opponents units and you target if possible a powerfull unit like a GGI BF, that way you have the element of suprise and if you're lucky, it can save you the game in a narrow position.
I'm trying to say with this: it's difficult to compare tesla coil/prism tower with the psy tower, as both are used in a different way. But I don't that the psy tower has a noticable advantage.

[Statalyzer]

If you nerf the magnetron and mastermind enough to make them less OP, you'll have to buff his Lasher and Brute until they can match the Soviets in firepower.

Not any more than you have to buff the Grizzly to match the Rhino. YR just needs to get rid of the stupid BTMs so that the Grizz and Lasher build in 7/9ths of the time the Rhino builds, just like RA2.

[Daishi]

About the balance mod, Dr. Feel, I think we may need to start over because I can't find my list of balance changes. :( It's alright though, I think we were going at it the wrong way anyway.

Truth be told, I always thought all T2 defenses (towers) needed some sort of buff.

And stat, you're right about that. And I disregarded the Yuri clone's ability to halt Soviet advances. :rolleyes:

[truefeel]

Not any more than you have to buff the Grizzly to match the Rhino. YR just needs to get rid of the stupid BTMs so that the Grizz and Lasher build in 7/9ths of the time the Rhino builds, just like RA2.

That's not enough.

[Joseph Leito]

boomers: nuff said





Someone explain to me why everyone has the notion that Boomers are over-powered? Two soviet subs/Allied destroyers and it's done, for about the same cost, and that's ALL he has! Yuri has no power to dominate the sea. Boomers are at best average against other ships, and his assaults on ground aren't that hard to stop.


Addressing other units:

Mind Control: Come on, if you can't deal with this then STFU and GTFO.

Magnetrons: Meh, only dangerous if they drop them (Which you have to know how to do) or if there's a mastermind waiting behind it.

Lasher: You're kidding, right?

Initiate: Annoying, yes, but expensive. Not a good rusher.

Virus: Again, annoying, but if you must use infantry just rush with four SEALs or a sniper if you're Britain. Better yet, Flak Traks or IFVs!


Brute: The Virus of tanks, just shoot him... he's not fast and you can kill before he gets close.

Gattling Tanks/Cannons: Honestly, just rates a meh. Tanks take two shots from a grizzly, and the towers mean that Yuri has NO static defenses once his power goes down.

Psychic Tower: Three units? HONESTLY?!? Just rush it, or better yet Rocketeer the stupid **** who forgets to put Gats with it.


Meh.

[Daishi]

I lol'd.

Have you ever fought combinations of Yuri's units? Like for example, how would you fight magnetrons, Masterminds, gatts and Lashers combined? Ever fought a non-AI Yuri player? It doesn't seem so. Nor does it seem you've ever been Boomer rushed.

[Statalyzer]

Someone explain to me why everyone has the notion that Boomers are over-powered? Two soviet subs/Allied destroyers and it's done, for about the same cost, and that's ALL he has!

Nope - 2 Subs/DDs will not stop a Boomer in time to keep it from destroying a couple of buildings first - and that's all he needs to do. And what if it turns out that the Yuri player didn't build a Sub Pen - now you just wasted $3500 credits for nothing.

Initiate: Annoying, yes, but expensive. Not a good rusher.

On urban maps, they are much better than GIs or Conscripts.

Gattling Tanks/Cannons: Honestly, just rates a meh. Tanks take two shots from a grizzly, and the towers mean that Yuri has NO static defenses once his power goes down.

Who cares that they die from two tank shots? They aren't made to fight tanks, they are made to fight air. They fight air better than the IFV or the Flak Track and have stronger armor so that you can't kill them with just 1 Harrier. As for the Towers, imagine if the Flak Cannon or the Patriot Missile also had a decent weapon versus land.

I notice you conveniently blew off the Magnetron, probably Yuri's most overpowered unit of all - well, besides his superweapons which most people don't use.

[truefeel]

That must be like the 100 time that I'm explaibibg why yuri is overpowered:

Someone explain to me why everyone has the notion that Boomers are over-powered? Two soviet subs/Allied destroyers and it's done, for about the same cost, and that's ALL he has! Yuri has no power to dominate the sea. Boomers are at best average against other ships, and his assaults on ground aren't that hard to stop.

You really forgot one part of the boomer: that it can destroy buildings with it's missiles. Those missiles are fast, but the part that makes the boomer REALLY overpowered is that it can submerge everywhere. By the time you know where the boomer is, you lost a building. Now what ? pumping your base full with AA ? that will cost most likely more then the boomer and you still aren't rid of the boomer. Getting both AA and naval? that costs even more money. So much money that your economy is so down I can just whipe you out with a few tanks.

Magnetrons: Meh, only dangerous if they drop them (Which you have to know how to do) or if there's a mastermind waiting behind it.

You really don't know where magnetrons are for, do you. Ever heard of auto-magging ? Using ctrl+shift makes that magnetrons move a bit, automatically lift tanks up and move again. That way, your tanks get immobile and you'll have to manually move them again. The few tanks that get trough will get either destroyed or mind controlled. Magnetrons are also very capable of dodging bombs from harriers/eagles. This unit is the key unit in yuri's force.

Lasher: You're kidding, right?

A lasher is completely equal (strength, armour, firepower,...) to a grizzly, except that it's shell travel faster (so less likely to miss). Think twice before you make such a statement. And in combination of a few magnetrons, lashers are very deadly.

Initiate: Annoying, yes, but expensive. Not a good rusher.

Not more expensive then a GI. And like statalyzer already told, better at urban maps. They just kill everything when they are in buildings, forcing you to spend money on units that outrange it.

Virus: Again, annoying, but if you must use infantry just rush with four SEALs or a sniper if you're Britain. Better yet, Flak Traks or IFVs!


But what about the lashers+gatts+magnetron ? You forgot that apperently. You see, yuri is not about individual units; it's about the mix. each unit fills up the weakness of an other. Virusses are btw not much used, except against Iraq (The desolator is one of the few units that makes you able to compete with a low-tech yuri).

Brute: The Virus of tanks, just shoot him... he's not fast and you can kill before he gets close.

You see the function of the brute wrong. It's a scout unit, a good one. Yes, it's slower then the dog, but has the big advantage of being uneatable. It also has a goo armour too, making it able to survive a pillbox for some seconds. It's only weakness is that it's a bit slower then a dog and so you can eat his engies, but then again you can't take the tech buildings that are guarded with a brute, not until you have a war factory anyway, and even then... .

Gattling Tanks/Cannons: Honestly, just rates a meh. Tanks take two shots from a grizzlyQUOTE]

gattling tanks are for AA, not for fighting tanks. Again, you will not face solely gattling tanks, but a mix of units. Gattling tanks are the best mobile AA units in the game, apart from the GGI BF of course (which is much more expensive). It's good against both rocketeers and mechanical air units.
But what it makes the most deadly is that it can fire on the move, something the flak track and the IFV don't have. True, you can use ctrl+shift, but the IFV and flak track need to stop to fire. Another advantage: the gattling tank is better armoured. Unlike the IFV/flak track, it is able to survive a bomb from an eagle.

[QUOTE]and the towers mean that Yuri has NO static defenses once his power goes down.

And when will that happen ? every player makes more power then actually needed. Like a yuri player will make gattling cannons anyway, he has enough on gattling tanks.

Psychic Tower: Three units? HONESTLY?!? Just rush it, or better yet Rocketeer the stupid **** who forgets to put Gats with it.


Psychic towers are used differently. They are put up when a yuri player has trouble in his base as a suprise for the opponent. I'll give an example: you sneaked in a seal IFV inside the yuri base. yippie, you got in, now you're heading with your seal for the conyard. Oh wait, the yuri player notices it and puts up the psychic tower. DANG ! you just lost a seal and he just won a seal. Good yuri players ussualy keep a psychic tower ready to be ready for such situations. A yuri player will not btw pump his base full with static defences. Actually now that you mentioned it, no side does that. It makes you weak.

[Statalyzer]

And when will that happen ? every player makes more power then actually needed.

And Yuri can powerup when he's down more easily than others, because he can quickly stick some initiates in a bioreactor instead of waiting for that new building to finish or having to cancel it.

[truefeel]

Now that you said it, yuri's power is actually the most cheapest, considering you can put relatively cheap initiates in it for, I think, 50 powerunits.

[Statalyzer]

No. That would be fair. But Yuri can put initiates in for one hundred power units each.

All 3 basic power plants cost 4 credits/power. But initiates are 200 credits for 100 power - so a bio reactor full of initiates is only 2.46 credits/power. Very helpful for Yuri.

This has 1 disadvantage - that's 650 power that can be killed all at once b/c it's all stacked in one building. But that is offset by three or four other advantages.

First off, it's some cheap fodder ready in case Yuri's base gets attacked.

Second, if Yuri only puts 2-4 infantry in each reactor, he can now cheaply add power in case his base goes offline. Allies or Sovs would have to build a whole new building and possibly face a tough choice of either cancelling something crucial or else waiting for another building to finish before restoring power. Yuri doesn't miss a beat and just builds infantry while his other buildings keep getting built.

Third, Allies or Soviets have to stop building other buildings to add power and Yuri doesn't. He can get 650 off one building instead of 3 or 4. This means Yuri can tech up faster and/or get to that 2nd/3rd WF faster.

Finally, if Yuri mind controls some of his enemy's infantry, he can add them to the bio reactor. This frees up his tower/mastermind/clone and now he's powering his base off of your credits. This is a dubious advantage since if the power plant gets destroyed, Yuri now has enemy units popping in his base, but at least the option is there if he wants it.

There's one more Yuri advantage we haven't discussed yet. Slave miners. They can go places without base stretching. They gain money at a slightly faster rate. They have a humungous amount of armor. And they can be repaired out in the orefield.

[truefeel]

cheapest in the sence of "it does not cost much", not in the sence of "it's lame" :p.

This has 1 disadvantage - that's 650 power that can be killed all at once b/c it's all stacked in one building. But that is offset by three or four other advantages.

That'll be probably his first reactor and that reactor is most of the time save somewhere in a stretched base.
Like having no power is that a big disadvantage anyway; you need to rely on units, not static defences. Agreed, sometimes you need a static

There's one more Yuri advantage we haven't discussed yet. Slave miners. They can go places without base stretching. They gain money at a slightly faster rate. They have a humungous amount of armor. And they can be repaired out in the orefield.

Yeh, I forgot that, although I mostly take really advantage of the fact that slaves are vulnerable to kill with a deso :p.

[SgtRicko]

All 3 basic power plants cost 4 credits/power. But initiates are 200 credits for 100 power - so a bio reactor full of initiates is only 2.46 credits/power. Very helpful for Yuri.

This has 1 disadvantage - that's 650 power that can be killed all at once b/c it's all stacked in one building. But that is offset by three or four other advantages.

This tactic can backfire very badly though, because if the Allies catch on to what your current power situation is, they might end up sending some harriers to kill your power plant in a moment's notice. Same goes for Cuba too, with their Osama flaks, though that is admittedly a LOT easier to stop.

[Teron]

Osama flaks=free money.

[Joseph Leito]

I'd love to quote/respond to each individual counter to mine, but I don't have time, so here goes:

Arguments against Gat cannon: Yeah, it attacks ground. Yuri is also without an effective equivalent of the Sentry/Pillbox, he only has one (decent) static base defense, as the Psy tower is WORTHLESS against a decent attack.

Gatt Tank: Ok, you got me. It's better than the IFV or Flak Track. I concede this one. (Although I actually use them for infantry more than air.)


Boomers!: First, the boomer rush thing from Daishi, yes, I've been boomer rushed. Honestly, it wasn't hard. I've faced one, two, four (Never three, oddly) and more boomers early in the game. I guess this is a difference in play style. I ALWAYS have at least seven or eight static air defenses in my base, just because I don't like people attacking me from above. No, this doesn't leave my economy depleted, I usually maintain at least 8k at any time, unless I'm building my attack later in the game. Oh, and a navy is never a waste of money in my view.

Magnetrons: What? What's overpowered? They're long ranged, big whoop. Again, play style: I keep a dozen tanks scattered in my base. Rush the Magnetrons and Masterminds, let the minds zap six units and kill themselves instantly. Then kill the lightly armored magnetrons. As for the lashers and gats with them... BLOW THEM UP! Yuri has a severe lack of armor! As for Ctrl-shifting: Micro manage your tanks!

Besides, everyone's got a "key unit."

Lashers: Again, I didn't say they were weaker than Grizzles, but they're not really better either. Just roast them like you would a Grizzly.


Oh, could you explain why a lot of Stat defs make you weak? As long as you can afford them (Which I usually can) then they just hinder the enemy, however slightly.

Oh, and a few counters:

Yuri has no effective scout, where Sovs have Terror Drone and Allies have Spy Sat.

Yuri has no heavy tanks, where the the Sovs have the appoc and the Allies have Battlefortress.

Yuri has the worst hero, YPrime can't get into a decent base without being cut up by tanks and all of the defenses he didn't take. Boris and Tanya are at least effective against infantry.

[nyarlathotep]

about that powered-up bioreactor and destroying it with harriers, I think it's not as good an idea... Gattling guns, you know. the moment you come with enough harriers to destroy a reactor, the yuri-player has allready 2 gattling things (be it static or tank) wich makes scrapmetal from those 3 or 4 harriers before they reached their target.

[truefeel]

Arguments against Gat cannon: Yeah, it attacks ground. Yuri is also without an effective equivalent of the Sentry/Pillbox, he only has one (decent) static base defense, as the Psy tower is WORTHLESS against a decent attack.

Re-read my statement about the psy tower

Gatt Tank: Ok, you got me. It's better than the IFV or Flak Track. I concede this one. (Although I actually use them for infantry more than air.)


You just have given another advantage of the gatt tank: it's effective against both infantry and air.

Boomers!: First, the boomer rush thing from Daishi, yes, I've been boomer rushed. Honestly, it wasn't hard. I've faced one, two, four (Never three, oddly) and more boomers early in the game. I guess this is a difference in play style. I ALWAYS have at least seven or eight static air defenses in my base, just because I don't like people attacking me from above. No, this doesn't leave my economy depleted, I usually maintain at least 8k at any time, unless I'm building my attack later in the game. Oh, and a navy is never a waste of money in my view.

What do you consider early game ? a good boomer rush occurs within 3 minutes in the game. The trick is to make only 1 boomer. If you make like 7 static defences, that's then 7000 credits (and then I don't count up the costs for extra power!) . I spend 2000 credits on the boomer. If you want, I can also include the cost of the shipyard: 1000. Then I still have spended 4000 credits less then you. And yes, that will leave your economy depleted: power is min. 600 credits, barracks is 500 credits, you also need a refinery to stay in the game, which 2000 credits. Count up the 7 static defences, you've spended more then 10000 credits, which is the amount of money you ussualy start.
If you wait until you get alot money, you can never get 7 static AA in 3 minutes. Btw, keeping that much money is bad, very bad. A good player ussualy has around the 1000 credits as reserve. That way, he has tanks much faster then you.
Of navy is never a waste. But against a yuri player you'll ussualy never get to build a real naval force b/c in 5 minutes the game will be over.
I'll show you. PM me your username and timezone. We can talk then about when we'll try it out.

Magnetrons: What? What's overpowered? They're long ranged, big whoop. Again, play style: I keep a dozen tanks scattered in my base. Rush the Magnetrons and Masterminds, let the minds zap six units and kill themselves instantly. Then kill the lightly armored magnetrons. As for the lashers and gats with them... BLOW THEM UP! Yuri has a severe lack of armor! As for Ctrl-shifting: Micro manage your tanks

Lol, rushing magnetrons and masterminds is the worst thing you can do. When you attack me, I run ctrl+shifting. your tanks get lifted, leaving only a few tanks getting through. Those will get mind controled, get killed by your other tanks and the whole proces repeats. Even without magnetrons rushing masterminds will never work. You're actually right about the micro-managment: the only way you can beat an AVERAGE yuri is having alot of micro-managment. And I can clearly say you don't have that.

Again I'll show you when we worked out a time to play.

Lashers: Again, I didn't say they were weaker than Grizzles, but they're not really better either. Just roast them like you would a Grizzly.


They are still tanks. You really underestimate lashers, especially when magnetrons are lifting your tanks up. Try to roaster then my 7 lashers against your 15 rhinoes.

Oh, could you explain why a lot of Stat defs make you weak? As long as you can afford them (Which I usually can) then they just hinder the enemy, however slightly.

static defences are, well, defences. They cannot attack the enemy. Now units on the other hand are mobile, they can both defend and attack. Units pack very often a bigger punch then tier 2 defences and are MOBILE. You can have defence anywhere you want at any time. Building your base full with static defences takes alot of time and cannot protect in ore fields. On small maps that means the game is decided in 2 minutes. On bigger maps you might be able to do it. But then what ? your ore runs out. You want to go to another place to get ore. Oh wait, The opponent spended money on units and expanding while you built a fancy base. Now you can expand b/c if you try to move your mcv or build buildings outside your precious defence it'll get destroyed just like that. Now you have no money to build more defences, while your opponent builds more and more units, b/c he has all the money. Then you'll get... . You can fill that in yourself.

Yuri has no effective scout, where Sovs have Terror Drone and Allies have Spy Sat.


And you think waiting like 4 minutes min. for a spysat gonna help you ? Man, even in noob games people scout like within 30 seconds. You scout with infantry, preferable dogs. But yuri has the brute. Now you come up with a drone, I'll come up with a gatt tank.

Yuri has no heavy tanks, where the the Sovs have the appoc and the Allies have Battlefortress.


1. So what are you gonna do with slower apocs ? they are slower then magnetrons and masterminds. Yeh sure, build alot of apocs. Make it me very easy. You think that armour helps against a yuri player, think again.
2. GGI BFs are good, but first you need to get a battle lab. You know how hard that it is against a yuri player who knows how to play this game ?

Yuri has the worst hero, YPrime can't get into a decent base without being cut up by tanks and all of the defenses he didn't take. Boris and Tanya are at least effective against infantry.

And what does that mean ? heroes play a very small role in the game anyway. They don't make a difference between winning and loosing. And Yuri Prime CANNOT be compared to the other 2 heroes. But he is not useless, not at all. Yuri players usually sneak it around your base while their army is at the other side. Let's see if you notice it while you're trying to kill his army.

about that powered-up bioreactor and destroying it with harriers, I think it's not as good an idea... Gattling guns, you know. the moment you come with enough harriers to destroy a reactor, the yuri-player has allready 2 gattling things (be it static or tank) wich makes scrapmetal from those 3 or 4 harriers before they reached their target.

Yeh, agreed. a bio reactor costs only 600. You need 3 harriers to destroy it. You can loose 2 harriers, which is 2400 credits.

[Statalyzer]

Like having no power is that a big disadvantage anyway; you need to rely on units, not static defences.

The main thing is it makes you build more slowly.

A navy is a waste of money if you spend so much of it you get destroyed on land. If you build a Naval Yard, 4 DDs, and 6 Patriot Missiles (plus 2 power plants to support them) to stop a Boomer - you spent $12,700 and the Yuri player spent only $3500.

That means he now has $9,200 more than you to spend on land. How are you going to stop a land assault that has $9,200 more worth of units than you have to spend on defense against it?

[truefeel]

The main thing is it makes you build more slowly.

If it's only for a few seconds, it will not hurt.

A navy is a waste of money if you spend so much of it you get destroyed on land. If you build a Naval Yard, 4 DDs, and 6 Patriot Missiles (plus 2 power plants to support them) to stop a Boomer - you spent $12,700 and the Yuri player spent only $3500.

The thing is, you have to spend money on navy anyway to get rid of the boomer. That makes the boomer rush so good. If you spent to little to stop the boomer, the boomer will shoot vital buildings. If you spend too much, you'll get killed over land. And It's always too little or too much; not a way inbetween.

[apple23]

static defences are, well, defences. They cannot attack the enemy. Now units on the other hand are mobile, they can both defend and attack. Units pack very often a bigger punch then tier 2 defences and are MOBILE. You can have defence anywhere you want at any time. Building your base full with static defences takes alot of time and cannot protect in ore fields. On small maps that means the game is decided in 2 minutes. On bigger maps you might be able to do it. But then what ? your ore runs out. You want to go to another place to get ore. Oh wait, The opponent spended money on units and expanding while you built a fancy base. Now you can expand b/c if you try to move your mcv or build buildings outside your precious defence it'll get destroyed just like that. Now you have no money to build more defences, while your opponent builds more and more units, b/c he has all the money. Then you'll get... . You can fill that in yourself.

Not to mention that every faction has at least one unit that outranges even the T2 defences, (Allies: Prism tank, Soviets: Seige chopper and V3, Yuri: Magnetron) and static defenses can't move in closer to fire, so they are sitting ducks to artillery, especially if the artillery is guarded by heavier units.That means he now has $9,200 more than you to spend on land. How are you going to stop a land assault that has $9,200 more worth of units than you have to spend on defense against it?

GGIBFs rape everything that is metal. They can even fire out when being lifted by the magnetrons. Unless this is a low tech rush-like assault. Then your ****ed.

[truefeel]

GGIBFs rape everything that is metal. They can even fire out when being lifted by the magnetrons. Unless this is a low tech rush-like assault. Then your ****ed.

GGI BFs are risky to use. You only need one disk as fodder to draw fire from it, so that a magnetron can lift it up and a mastermind can mind control it. You don't need to get your floating disk damaged, b/c if you move away from the Bf with your floating disk(s), the BF keeps firing, but the missiles will never hit.

[Statalyzer]

GGIBFs rape everything that is metal. They can even fire out when being lifted by the magnetrons. Unless this is a low tech rush-like assault.

Well, remember, he's built a Naval Yard, 4 Destroyers, and 6 patriot missiles plus a couple of power plants. If he's teching up and building BFs and GGIs at the same time, he's going to be out of cash. Even if he manages to get 2 GGI BFs (8,000 credits), I can pwn that with 17,200 credits worth of units easily.

[Joseph Leito]

You managed to paraphrase everything I said.

1. I didn't say I'd have 7 static defenses immediately for the sole purpose of Boomers. I meant that to say that I was building defenses throughout the game.

2. Just because I have static defenses as I get the money, doesn't mean I never build units.

3. Very few Yuri players can afford to attack with land and boomers at the same time.

4. No, I won't play you online. I'm on dial-up. That's a pain.

5. (Most importantly) PFFT. Good luck finding a good Yuri player online.

[Teron]

He doesn't need to attack with Boomers. He attacks with a Boomer.
You don't need more than one Boomer to utterly ruin your opponent's game. And you don't even need to fire more than once or twice (Shoot, submerge, shoot from a different place).

Destroying a single important structure is a major setback, forcing the opponent to spend resources on the replacement and anti-Boomer defence, thus putting the Yuri player ahead on cash and giving him the initiative. This is even worse if it's Allies vs. Yuri, because Allies have the worst economy while Yuri the best. So, while he normally has a small natural economical advantage over you, a Boomer rush exaggerates this ridiculously. Soviets have a slightly better economy and the fast Rhino build time introduced in YR to somewhat offset the disadvantage. Plus, Typhoons are stealth as well, so Yuri risks running into your defences.

Also, Yuri doesn't need to spend as much time from his Main construction tab on power, because the power can partly be bought from the Barracks.
All this might seem rather small, and, really, apart from Mags and the ridiculous Boomers, it mostly is. The problem is that it's everywhere. His economy is slightly faster than yours, he doesn't need to build as many things from the Main tab, his AA is a tad better than the competition.
Combine that small amount of natural speed with something as broken as a Boomer rush and you're done for.

The game plays very differently online. Also, do you usually play games with starting units?

[truefeel]

1. I didn't say I'd have 7 static defenses immediately for the sole purpose of Boomers. I meant that to say that I was building defenses throughout the game.

I make in some games like 15. But the difference between you and me that I only build them when I really need them. You just build them in the thinking of that it'll scare your opponent off, which does not work.

Read very carefully what I gonna say next, b/c you didn't see it in my previous posts or you're just ignoring it:

A boomer rush occurs within 3 minutes in the game. That's fast, very fast. The first building most people target is the war factory. Boomers have long enough range and normally you can't build it out of the range. If you succesfully were able to anti-scout, you might delay it with 30 seconds (then the yuri player will use psychic reveal. Even then it stays difficult to get enough defences to stop the yuri player from wrecking your WF or possibly an other building.
My question to you is:
Tell me how you're gonna spend less then 3000 credits on units/defences/whatever to stop a boomer, when it attacks within 3/3:30 minutes.

2. Just because I have static defenses as I get the money, doesn't mean I never build units.

So when will you build units ? After like 5 minutes ? no, b/c you already lost then. Most people make their tanks very soon after their first war factory is up, on small maps or high economy maps even right on the moment their WF is up, and that occurs fast, very fast.

3. Very few Yuri players can afford to attack with land and boomers at the same time.

You think that ? You obviously never tried it on a proper way out. Slave miners are the best miners, b/c they are always close to the ore. Yes, it does not occur on the same moment, either b/c that boomer already defeated you or b/c your economy is broken that he has time enough to make a few tanks and to finish it off.

4. No, I won't play you online. I'm on dial-up. That's a pain.

I think that's just an excuse. More over, you just prove my point with that more: If you never have played online, you'll never know how yuri is really played. You're stuck on the idea of how the AI works, but a human yuri player plays very different. The yuri players who know atleast how to play yuri.

5. (Most importantly) PFFT. Good luck finding a good Yuri player online.

And what would you know about it ? You don't play online, so you can't possibly know it. Besides, the yuri player doesn't even need to be good, a yuri player who knows how the tricks can whipe the floor with an excellent player.

[Joseph Leito]

You're a really bad paraphraser. I didn't say I've never played online. You know how many times I've moved? I had cable, then DSL, then Dial-Up, then satellite and now dial-up again. I've played online, and will resume playing online if Kansas Broadband would get their asses in gear and get me decent internet in the middle of nowhere.

No, I don't make static defenses "To scare my opponent." I use them to defend my base from attacks I didn't see coming.

No, I don't play starting units.

One HUGE hole in your entire boomer argument:

Not every map has starting positions near large open water, besides, I move my MCV before deploying. Move it AWAY from water. Boomers are long-ranged, but they still can't shoot across the map. Yuri is overpowered on SOME maps. Just like Soviets could be considered overpowered on Heck Freezes Over. Thing is, Yuri's magnetrons, overpowered or not, aren't invincible.

[Statalyzer]

1. I didn't say I'd have 7 static defenses immediately for the sole purpose of Boomers. I meant that to say that I was building defenses throughout the game.

If you're building them throughout the game, how are they going to help you guard against a quick Boomer.

Just because I have static defenses as I get the money, doesn't mean I never build units.

Nobody said you can't build units, but if you, throughout the game, build 7 patriots, that's $7000 less worth of units you can build. Meaning your land force will have 10 fewer Grizzlies, or 7 fewer mirages, than it otherwise would have.

3. Very few Yuri players can afford to attack with land and boomers at the same time.

But you claim to be able to afford to to build land units, static defenses, and naval units all at the same time!

[truefeel]

You're a really bad paraphraser. I didn't say I've never played online. You know how many times I've moved? I had cable, then DSL, then Dial-Up, then satellite and now dial-up again. I've played online, and will resume playing online if Kansas Broadband would get their asses in gear and get me decent internet in the middle of nowhere.

Ok, my apologies then. Though I don't think you really have much online experience, else you would atleast make better arguments.

No, I don't make static defenses "To scare my opponent." I use them to defend my base from attacks I didn't see coming.

That's a very wrong use of static defences. See, that's why most people scout at the very beginning of the game with either a brute or a dog: The scout around, so that they can see very early in the game the moves of the opponent, the location of the tech buildings etc. . Base defences don't help at all, b/c units are much better in firepower (b/c of bigger numbers).

Not every map has starting positions near large open water, besides, I move my MCV before deploying. Move it AWAY from water. Boomers are long-ranged, but they still can't shoot across the map. Yuri is overpowered on SOME maps. Just like Soviets could be considered overpowered on Heck Freezes Over.

Tell me which official map you mean.
Yuri isn't just powered on SOME maps, but on MOST maps. You happen to choose a nice map even more in the favour of yuri: heck freezes over has alot of cliffs, and that makes magnetrons deadly (by dropping units on the cliffs and magnetron cannot be so easily reached).

Thing is, Yuri's magnetrons, overpowered or not, aren't invincible.

Very irrelevant argument. Tell me which unit is invincible. None. You don't get it, still after all my attempts of trying to explain it;
It's not just about the magnetron. Magnetron alone cannot do much, but if they are combined with other units like the lasher tank, mastermind, gatt tank,... you get a mix which is what yuri makes win. And the magnetron is the key unit around here.

I'll try to find a video with a yuri player, maybe that'll give you an idea how yuri is really played.

[apple23]

You're a really bad paraphraser. I didn't say I've never played online. You know how many times I've moved? I had cable, then DSL, then Dial-Up, then satellite and now dial-up again. I've played online, and will resume playing online if Kansas Broadband would get their asses in gear and get me decent internet in the middle of nowhere.
Don't jump on his ass because you failed to point out that you used to have internet, but no longer do.

No, I don't make static defenses "To scare my opponent." I use them to defend my base from attacks I didn't see coming.
Using static defenses in that way is a complete waste of money, because in most cases the enemy units can just go around, and if you covered your entire base then you just poured alot of money into defenses that probably won't hold when the enemy attacks.

One HUGE hole in your entire boomer argument:

Not every map has starting positions near large open water, besides, I move my MCV before deploying. Move it AWAY from water. Boomers are long-ranged, but they still can't shoot across the map. Yuri is overpowered on SOME maps. Just like Soviets could be considered overpowered on Heck Freezes Over.
First of all, we are talking about boomer rush on a map that actually supports such a strategy. Obviously, you couldn't use boomers on an inland map or a map with little to no navy access. Otherwise, boomers are usually the first thing a good yuri player rushes with.

Thing is, Yuri's magnetrons, overpowered or not, aren't invincible.
like truefeel said, that is irrelevant to the matter at hand.

[ALaRm2202]

now i will say yuri is overpowered on water maps(with a selection of a few like facedown, not overpowered but still advantaged) but there are some tricks that have been known to stop them.

as allies the only way to stop a boomer rush even if it sounds dumb is to get quick robot tanks (robot control center can be built after warfactory). and like 2 ggis.

i see this is what you guys have been arguing about lol but like i said.. boomer rush is overpowered but thats it in my mind hope this helped anymore questions lol ill be glad to answer them :D

[apple23]

Robot tanks are expensive for they are very weak and by the time you can make a robot control center, his boomer is well on its way to yuor base. Not to mention that(correct me if i'm wrong) they still can't detect stealth and torpedos still hit them. Basically, you're better off with destroyers.

Basically, robot tanks are useless, which is really unfortunate, considering that if they were beefed up a little, they would be, basically, yuri's one main weakness.

[sg500]

instead of nerfing yuri how bout buffing other countries so it can be more practical when vs yuri. I mean wouldnt it be cool to see libya vs yuri and libya actually hold its own?

France:Grand cannons cost less but still take the same amount of time to build and also requires slightly less energy.

Germany lower the cost of tank destroyers to 800$ and give them barrels that swivle like rhynos.

Korea: give them an armor upgrade thats exclusively for gattling fire and make it around 1000$. basically giving them the same armor as rhynos.

Cuba: terrorist cannont be mind controled and takes 2 shots to die from desoes and snipers and also immune to dogs.

Libya: lower the cost of bomb trucks to 900$. and immune to mind control and 1 unite more of armor. Also make the trucks produce 25% faster once industrial plant is built.

Russia: give telsa tanks farther range like ifv's with guardians in them. Make them produce them 25% faster after industrial plant is up.

sovs buff: drones have 25% more armor vs gattling fire and only gattling fire. V3 rockets have a slightly faster cool down. telsa towers have the same range as prisms and multiple towers combine for maximum damage like prism ( dunno why the ****in creators gave allies that rediculous buff and not the others) towers do.

allies buff: Actually theres more nerfs than buffs! Spys cost 800$ chrono leigionares chrono things at a faster rate. Germany, Korea, and france use 25% less power for robot tanks than america and britian. Nerf the battle fortresses and let them be unable to fire while retreating (making them soley offensive vehicls) and cost 1500$. Guardian gis takes more kills to become veteren. gis do less damage vs buildings.

Yuri buffs: chaos drones have increased armor and wider radious of gas. lower magnetrons range. No health regeneration for disks and lower their armor.limit masterminds unit controls to 3 instead of infinate.Lower barrier defenses armor and reduce boomers range for inland attacks.

Some may disagree with these but like any patch u have to have top players test it and give their oppinions over like 6-8 months.

[truefeel]

instead of nerfing yuri how bout buffing other countries so it can be more practical when vs yuri. I mean wouldnt it be cool to see libya vs yuri and libya actually hold its own?


In daishi's patch we did something like that: we made the demo truck stronger, but the most important feature is it's mind control immune now. We tested it properly and libya suddenly is very interesting against yuri. You need to use the demo truck well, but if you happen to do that, one demo truck can decide the game. The yuri player on the other hand will have to use TC and small splitters to counter the demo truck.

France:Grand cannons cost less but still take the same amount of time to build and also requires slightly less energy.


That'll only encourage the camping, something you don't want. I would make the grand cannon more powerfull against buildings, to encourage to use it offensively.

Germany lower the cost of tank destroyers to 800$ and give them barrels that swivle like rhynos.

That's probably the best thing to do. maybe a lower Rate Of Turn also.

Russia: give telsa tanks farther range like ifv's with guardians in them. Make them produce them 25% faster after industrial plant is up.

Piscinex made it having a completely different purpose. It became a anti-miner unit, which is also good against light vehicles. I think pisc's idea is far better.
The indu. plant is hardcoded and so you cannot make such changes.

sovs buff: drones have 25% more armor vs gattling fire and only gattling fire. V3 rockets have a slightly faster cool down. telsa towers have the same range as prisms and multiple towers combine for maximum damage like prism ( dunno why the ****in creators gave allies that rediculous buff and not the others) towers do.

I agree on everything except the tesla tower. Keeping the uniques of it should be always considered. Besides, the maximum damage thingy by the prism tower is a bug on SOME maps. not all. It can be easily fixed.

allies buff: Actually theres more nerfs than buffs! Spys cost 800$ chrono leigionares chrono things at a faster rate. Germany, Korea, and france use 25% less power for robot tanks than america and britian. Nerf the battle fortresses and let them be unable to fire while retreating (making them soley offensive vehicls) and cost 1500$. Guardian gis takes more kills to become veteren. gis do less damage vs buildings.

spies should be kept the way they are. They are underused, but IMO not underpowered.

[Statalyzer]

The Grand Cannon is a tough one - encouraging turtling isn't a good thing, but encouraging cannon walking isn't either.

Germany lower the cost of tank destroyers to 800$ and give them barrels that swivle like rhynos.

That would instantly make Germany the most powerful side in the game. Also, a unit with a swivelling turret is a tank, not a tank destroyer.

[truefeel]

The Grand Cannon is a tough one - encouraging turtling isn't a good thing, but encouraging cannon walking isn't either.


I would encourage cannon walking, but to a cost of course.


Robot tanks are expensive for they are very weak and by the time you can make a robot control center, his boomer is well on its way to yuor base. Not to mention that(correct me if i'm wrong) they still can't detect stealth and torpedos still hit them. Basically, you're better off with destroyers.

Basically, robot tanks are useless, which is really unfortunate, considering that if they were beefed up a little, they would be, basically, yuri's one main weakness.


No, robo tanks are not that useless. they are good countering dreadnoughts. But I would not make robo's against boomers. The armour of the boomer makes that you can simply ignore the robo tanks, if you happen to face them. When you boomered some buildings, you can still torpedo the robo tanks, while the robo tanks cannot counter the boomer then.

[sg500]

The Grand Cannon is a tough one - encouraging turtling isn't a good thing, but encouraging cannon walking isn't either.



That would instantly make Germany the most powerful side in the game. Also, a unit with a swivelling turret is a tank, not a tank destroyer.



When you think about it a swivle turrent is quit fair. keep in mind that their only effective vs tanks. Theres plenty of hard counters for all 3 sides vs germany and we all know what they are. Plus their cheaper costwise vs a buffed tank destroyer. $800 tank destroyer vs $500 drone ect. ect.

It be nice if they had area of effect damage then they could stay the way they are w/o swivle cannons as well as price-wise.

Lets face it. Germany needs drastic help and i figure swivle cannons would place them on even ground.

as for France i think they need a slight buff. A very slight buff either on power or on GC price.

[truefeel]

When you think about it a swivle turrent is quit fair. keep in mind that their only effective vs tanks. Theres plenty of hard counters for all 3 sides vs germany and we all know what they are. Plus their cheaper costwise vs a buffed tank destroyer. $800 tank destroyer vs $500 drone ect. ect.


You forgot one thing and that is that decent players combine units with eachother, like tanks with fodder. It is not that simple. The best way mostly to compare is to only compare units with others in the same class.
Best way is to do it like piscinex did it in his patch; I'll quote:


"+ Tank Destroyers can now go toe-to-toe with Rhinos and Grizzlies and expect to win without difficulty. Back up your Tank Destroyers with units that can deal with structures and infantry (like Rocketeers and Prism Tanks) and mix them with Grizzlies if necessary. There is never a situation where you should be massing only Tank Destroyers.
– Tank Destroyers are very weak against infantry and structures. Mix lots of fodder with your main force and keep it alive until the battle starts. Tank Destroyers are somewhat slow and can't fire on the move, so by being aggressive and splitting a lot you can frustrate a player who relies on them too heavily. Tank Destroyers are also highly vulnerable to Terror Drones."

Basicilly, you only need to make things like firepower and rate of fire better.

as for France i think they need a slight buff. A very slight buff either on power or on GC price.

Basicilly, grand cannons are both under- and overrated. overrated by the less skilled players who think they can effectively camp with grand cannons and underrated by the better players who don't think about the offensive capabilities of the grand cannon. Power is never really been an issue in RA2/YR and mowing down the price will only encourage people to use it too defensively. However, something like an increase in firepower against buildings might do it.

[Statalyzer]

A Tank Destroyer that is actually just a cheap tank that has more firepower and armor than the Rhino would be as overpowered as the BF, only more so because you don't need a lab.

Everyone knows that if your main tank force handily defeats the enemy's main tank force, you win 19 times out of 20. And that's what would happen with such a TD.

The real-life tank destroyers are useful b/c they sacrifice a turret (less mobility of firepower) but also cost less, and thus can be produced cheaper to fill up a defensive position where the enemy has to come right at them and thus their lack of a field of fire doesn't matter. To use TD's offensively, artillery and true tanks have to either pin the enemy down or outflank him so that he's forced to come to a halt and let the TDs zero in.

Cannon-walking shouldn't be encouraged, IMO. Basecrawling is silly enough as it is. It is a defensive structure, after all. You can play good defense in RA2/YR without turtling. If your tank force is doing well but slightly outnubmered and the enemy wants to attack, pull back and put up a cannon that you have waiting. Seize a central point in the map that has a tech building and pop up a GC there. There are plenty of ways to do it without the base version of the apoc/deso push.

[truefeel]

A Tank Destroyer that is actually just a cheap tank that has more firepower and armor than the Rhino would be as overpowered as the BF, only more so because you don't need a lab.


Don't forget that fodder makes tank destroyers useless. It's also still possible to outrun the tank destroyers.

The real-life tank destroyers are useful b/c they sacrifice a turret (less mobility of firepower) but also cost less, and thus can be produced cheaper to fill up a defensive position where the enemy has to come right at them and thus their lack of a field of fire doesn't matter. To use TD's offensively, artillery and true tanks have to either pin the enemy down or outflank him so that he's forced to come to a halt and let the TDs zero in

But the problem is that we are talking about a game and not real-life.
Buffing firepower and such isn't going to make the tank destroyer overpowered. You still need to use them smart. If the opponent makes loads of fodder, tank destroyers become kinda useless anyway.

Cannon-walking shouldn't be encouraged, IMO. Basecrawling is silly enough as it is. It is a defensive structure, after all. You can play good defense in RA2/YR without turtling. If your tank force is doing well but slightly outnubmered and the enemy wants to attack, pull back and put up a cannon that you have waiting. Seize a central point in the map that has a tech building and pop up a GC there. There are plenty of ways to do it without the base version of the apoc/deso push.

Currently, the emphasis is too much on defensively when people play France. People should have the idea that the game generally cannot be won by going all-out defensively, but the grand cannon does give the opposite idea. By encouraging cannon crawling, you break the idea.
Base crawling is not really silly for a game like YR. good players base crawl all the time, to ore and such. On bigger maps, people should repack their mcvs, or build a new one if repacks are off, and try to move close to their opponent with and from there build grand cannons. Very effective when people try to camp on a cliff or something like that; the grand cannon can then be used as some sort of long range artillery.

Basicilly, you only have 3 solutions with grand cannon to make France as a country usefull: laying even more emphasis on defense, or to make it more offensively or a combination of both. But both RA2 and YR are ment as fast games, so the emphasis should be on offensive.

IMO, a thing that could also help is letting the player be only able to have a certain number of grand cannons at the same. That way, the player is forced to think where he should place the grand cannon. So a limited number of 1 or 2 should be good; that way you might also be able to do a combination solution. That way, you also discourage players to stay on the defense, while the GC still can be used as a defense, but in a less concentration. That way, you make cannon crawling also more acceptable: people are forced to sell their grand cannons at their base, but have the advantage then in the offense. Though you do need then to buff the grand cannon.

[Statalyzer]

But the problem is that we are talking about a game and not real-life.

That's not a problem at all, unless you want it to be. The TD should not have a turret; if it does than it isn't a TD.

[truefeel]

That's not a problem at all, unless you want it to be. The TD should not have a turret; if it does than it isn't a TD.

That's the part were I agree.

I've also thought a bit more about the GC;

my idea is this: GCs will have more firepower versus everything and the timespace between 2 shells will be shortened.
Now the mainy thing is this:
you'll be able to make only 2 grand cannons. The first one costs a bit less then normal (1500), but the second one costs more then normal (3000). Both are exactly the same. This way, player will posses better grand cannon(s), but will have to think where he'll place it and if he wants to put down the second, more expensive one. The player can only build one of each, but the advantage is that he has a better GC. I think this will discourage camping, but gives the french player in critical times or when he goes offensive with GCs a better weapon.

[sg500]

You forgot one thing and that is that decent players combine units with eachother, like tanks with fodder. It is not that simple.


good lord. I didnt just pick this game off the shelf yesturday. I left specific counters and fodder out because i felt that stuff goes without saying. So no i did not forget about mix units and fodder which i summed up as hard counters.Its too bad i dont have these peoples patches so i cant even agree nor disagree on them. Therefore based on what i know for a fact is that i have never taken a germany player seriously in custom nor ladder then (in my competitive days) and im willing to bet that things are the same way now.

TD's get owned so badly vs rhinos its crazy because of tc and swivle turrents.Due to swivle cannons and tc, rhinos have a better veterency rate in the match up.Toss in fodder and you only help prove my point about Td's. Basic stuff that i felt i never even had to mention.

France: According to the patch that i previously made i feel that a slight buff would keep them relevant and not overpowered in the match ups.It wouldnt be right to buff most sides and feel that france is overpowered to the point of considering they should remain unchanged. Sorry im just being consistant with my previous stated patch.

[truefeel]

good lord. I didnt just pick this game off the shelf yesturday. I left specific counters and fodder out because i felt that stuff goes without saying. So no i did not forget about mix units and fodder which i summed up as hard counters.Its too bad i dont have these peoples patches so i cant even agree nor disagree on them. Therefore based on what i know for a fact is that i have never taken a germany player seriously in custom nor ladder then (in my competitive days) and im willing to bet that things are the same way now.

Problem is that the tank destroyer is NOT designed for a spinning turret. A patch should stay a patch and should not alter the game when there are alternatives. Buffing a tank destroyer is only needed, IMHO.

TD's get owned so badly vs rhinos its crazy because of tc and swivle turrents.Due to swivle cannons and tc, rhinos have a better veterency rate in the match up.Toss in fodder and you only help prove my point about Td's. Basic stuff that i felt i never even had to mention.


But TC is player based, not game based. If you win b/c of TC, then it's a completely fair advantage.Veterancy plays only a very small role; only elite rhinoes could be game-decisive, but you only get that in very long games.
IMO, and that's what piscinex also said and actually did in his RA2 patch, the Td should be stronger, but only to a point where they can make a grizzly force alot stronger, not to a point where they whipe the floor with everything. That'll probably happen when you have the tank destroyer the ability to turn the turret. Now you can still fix that, but then again: is that all really needed ? Keeping the idea of of TD ,and any other unit, is very important when talking about a patch and not a mod.

France: According to the patch that i previously made i feel that a slight buff would keep them relevant and not overpowered in the match ups.It wouldnt be right to buff most sides and feel that france is overpowered to the point of considering they should remain unchanged. Sorry im just being consistant with my previous stated patch.

Well, many less experienced players use GCs wrong. For elite players, a small buff is enough. But when thinking about a community patch you should look for a solution that discourage people to camp with GCs, while still giving the player a better GC then before. I think my solution does that; people will get the idea the GC is a powerfull tool, but is limited and should be used wise.

I'm not asking here for a change in your opinion; I'm just asking for an open mind

[Statalyzer]

I don't like the idea of build limits as a solution to problems. It just doens't make sense, for one thing. Making Grand Cannons shots more deadly but have them rotate more slowly might help - that way somebody can potentially outmanuever one if they use good tacics.

The problem with the GC isn't that it's too strong or too weak, really, so I don't think it needs to be changed all that much. It all depends on the map. Making it better at defense and on maps like Montana DMZ it will be too easy to camp when you can guard the bridges easily with multiple cannons. Making it better at cannon crawling and France will be overpowered on maps like Country Swing where you can base walk to the middle and drive the enemy tank force back.

[nyarlathotep]

And would the td get overpowered by an increase in hp and/or armor?

[Statalyzer]

It needs either an increase in HP/armor, or a reduction in price. That will keep it balanced with the advantages of more damage and armor per credit but disadvantage of worse against buildings/infantry and no rotating turret.

[truefeel]

I don't like the idea of build limits as a solution to problems. It just doens't make sense, for one thing. Making Grand Cannons shots more deadly but have them rotate more slowly might help - that way somebody can potentially outmanuever one if they use good tacics.

The problem with the GC isn't that it's too strong or too weak, really, so I don't think it needs to be changed all that much. It all depends on the map. Making it better at defense and on maps like Montana DMZ it will be too easy to camp when you can guard the bridges easily with multiple cannons. Making it better at cannon crawling and France will be overpowered on maps like Country Swing where you can base walk to the middle and drive the enemy tank force back.

Well, for what I know skilled players do not use much more then 1 GC. Less skilled players build like 6. The difference is that with that 1 GC, the skilled player does far more then the player with the 6 GCs does. So a build limit is not that silly at all, b/c if you make use of GC at the right and at the right spot, you really don't more then 1. Making more then 2 in YR is money waste.
With a build limit, you let the less skilled player spend less money, which he'll spend on other things, maybe tanks; and that's just what decent players do.
I personally do agree with a relative small buff in firepower. Though an increase in rate of turn is IMO not that good; the bit faster vehicles can already outrun the shots.

Your example of DMZ and country swing are actually solved by my solution: limiting the number makes you not be able either camp harcore or to cannon crawl hardcore, while you still can make the GC better.

I know it's a radical solution, but just think that it pushes less good players to use GCs more wise. Of course, a more powerfull cannon is needed, to still make the france side interesting.

[Statalyzer]

Well, for what I know skilled players do not use much more then 1 GC. Less skilled players build like 6. The difference is that with that 1 GC, the skilled player does far more then the player with the 6 GCs does. So a build limit is not that silly at all,

If a less skilled player wants to hurt himself by building so many GCs, it's his perrogative - and someone who can't beat him even if he's spending 12k on defenses deserves to lose.

2 GCs on CS is all you'd need to shove the other guy out of the middle and crawl toward his base, assuming the players are close to equal in skill and have similarly powerful tank forces. If the GC's ability to base crawl is magnified...

[truefeel]

If a less skilled player wants to hurt himself by building so many GCs, it's his perrogative - and someone who can't beat him even if he's spending 12k on defenses deserves to lose.

2 GCs on CS is all you'd need to shove the other guy out of the middle and crawl toward his base, assuming the players are close to equal in skill and have similarly powerful tank forces. If the GC's ability to base crawl is magnified...

A less skilled player does not know better. He thinks building GCs will help him alot. I think that idea should be eliminated.

Yes, I know the strength of a GC on country swing. The problem is if you want to solve it specificily for that map, you need to make the GC less good, b/c it's already too powerfull FOR THAT MAP. On open maps like defcon 6 you might find the GC underpowered.

Mind you that I made an attempt to solve that problem; making the second GC more expensive. You know as good as I do that you cannot spend like 4500 credits (first GC=1500 credits; second one is 3000 credits) that early on such a map without sacrificing a certain number of tanks, so GCs are probably more for late game. Also: having this system makes that cannon crawling is more powerfull (considering an increase in firepower), but at the cost it goes WAY slower (you constantly need to sell your GCs in order to make new ones, which are further placed).

Though I need admitt your idea might be in practice better; It is less complicated. But my idea is more skill-pointed... :p.

[Statalyzer]

A less skilled player does not know better. He thinks building GCs will help him alot. I think that idea should be eliminated.

Eliminating the possibility of doing things just because less-skilled players do them? You don't do that with anything else in the game.

Yes, I know the strength of a GC on country swing. The problem is if you want to solve it specificily for that map, you need to make the GC less good, b/c it's already too powerfull FOR THAT MAP. On open maps like defcon 6 you might find the GC underpowered.

I already said that it depends on the map. That's why I'm not sure if the GC needs to be changed at all. DEFCON 6 is actually a good example of a map where a skilled player could make limited use of GC's to aid his cause, but building up several of them just for security would be devastating.

The Allied sides are more evened out than the Soviets. USA/Korea are best in general, but you can make a good case for choosing any of the other three, although Germany is the weakest of course (but we've already agreed it needs some small boosts).

The Soviets are where the countries need to be evened out. Iraq is by far the most powerful, Cuba is useful in an Allied/Soviet game, and Libya/Russia really suck unless Russia is used on a Naval map or Libya is used in a turtling game with supers on.

[truefeel]

Eliminating the possibility of doing things just because less-skilled players do them? You don't do that with anything else in the game.

Eliminating the wrong way. You know good enough as I do that you should not make more then 2 cannons on most maps. So if you look at the higher level of skill, it's not really eliminating.

I already said that it depends on the map. That's why I'm not sure if the GC needs to be changed at all. DEFCON 6 is actually a good example of a map where a skilled player could make limited use of GC's to aid his cause, but building up several of them just for security would be devastating.


defcon 6 is an open map, much easier to go around the GC.

The Allied sides are more evened out than the Soviets. USA/Korea are best in general, but you can make a good case for choosing any of the other three, although Germany is the weakest of course (but we've already agreed it needs some small boosts).

The Soviets are where the countries need to be evened out. Iraq is by far the most powerful, Cuba is useful in an Allied/Soviet game, and Libya/Russia really suck unless Russia is used on a Naval map or Libya is used in a turtling game with supers on.

True, but we weren't exactly discussing that, were we :p.

[Statalyzer]

Well, what I mean is that it's not a good idea to do a lot of other things that lesser skilled players do, but we don't eliminate those.

defcon 6 is an open map, much easier to go around the GC.

Exactly. If you guard each of the 3 entrances to your base with a GC (big entrance would probably need 2) you'd be quite likely to lose because counting power that would be $9,600 you can't spend on seizing the resources in the middle of the map.

But if you move an MCV into the middle, judicious use of a GC could pay off - totally depending on how the game plays out and what your teammates (if any) are doing.

[truefeel]

Exactly. If you guard each of the 3 entrances to your base with a GC (big entrance would probably need 2) you'd be quite likely to lose because counting power that would be $9,600 you can't spend on seizing the resources in the middle of the map.

But if you move an MCV into the middle, judicious use of a GC could pay off - totally depending on how the game plays out and what your teammates (if any) are doing.

From what I experienced, moving to middle does not work if the other player notices it; if he goes all out offensive, you will not be able to hold it, unless you 0 miners from WF (but then you cannot get a fast grand cannon).

Well, what I mean is that it's not a good idea to do a lot of other things that lesser skilled players do, but we don't eliminate those.


Then only improving the GC will get the less skilled players even more stuck in their belief. That's not exactly what you want either.

[Thomas.Franck]

Even if you go 0 miners, you won't b able to hold vs a gd player. ^^

[truefeel]

Even if you go 0 miners, you won't b able to hold vs a gd player. ^^

Of course not, but what's your point with this ?

[Thomas.Franck]

That you just shouldn't move to mid to start with, even if you're gonna go 0 miners and sell, it's better to stay and move after you've got 3 minders on the ore at your start pos.

[truefeel]

That you just shouldn't move to mid to start with, even if you're gonna go 0 miners and sell, it's better to stay and move after you've got 3 minders on the ore at your start pos.

It can work, if you were able to antiscout.

[Thomas.Franck]

you can't, by the time you deploy your mcv in mid, the other guy is already building his ref, and the first thing he's going to scout is mid.

vs less skilled players you can win moving to mid, but staying, and move later is better :)

[Statalyzer]

It also works better in team games - one guy can move to middle right away and the other guys can help defend him and then build their refineries off of him. It's certainly a gamble.

[truefeel]

you can't, by the time you deploy your mcv in mid, the other guy is already building his ref, and the first thing he's going to scout is mid.

vs less skilled players you can win moving to mid, but staying, and move later is better :)


I'm no so sure about that. It only a few cells to middle.

[Thomas.Franck]

if you're quick and sell your mcv after you placed your 2nd ref (or after repair depot) you'll be able to hold it in mid vs some1 who stayed. but than he'll still have his mcv and you wont, that's a big disadvantage.