Not in my backyard

[OneWiseJedi]

I mean not to offend, only convey my concern.

CTV.ca News Staff
The Centre for Inquiry and the Canadian Secular Alliance is calling an Ontario school board's decision to remove a children's book from its library shelves, "an overt example of the discrimination against atheists by the religious."
The Halton Catholic District School Board ordered "The Golden Compass" to be removed from library shelves at dozens of schools after receiving a request for review from a member of the community.
The book, written by popular British author Philip Pullman, has won numerous awards including the Maine Student Book Award and the American Library Association's Best Books for Young Adults award.
Justin Trottier, executive director of the Centre for Inquiry Ontario, is urging the books be returned to shelves "so that libraries may continue to be places of learning and imagination."
"Some of our greatest authors, philosophers and scientists have been atheists. If books written by atheists are banned for not conforming to Catholic worldviews, will the school board proceed to ban books deemed pro-Muslim, pro-Buddhist, or even pro-Protestant if they are critical of Catholicism?," Trottier asked in a statement on Thursday.
"Pretty soon the only book in their library may be the Bible."
The board -- which oversees some 43 elementary and secondary schools in Ontario -- has pulled the book from public display and two other Pullman titles from the "Dark Materials" trilogy. The books are available to students upon request.
I am one of seven scientist on a panel that debates these theology partisans when issues such as this arise. Before, I was debating them on how the world is not 4500 years old, this seemed elementary and silly to me. Seems nothing has changed. I want my son (and mankind) to have a bright future. I want him to live in a world where they invent things that would leave me in agog. I want 100 generations from now, mankind to invent and understand things that would be extremely complex and difficult to comprehend in a world referenced today. Unfortunately in 2007 most peoples mindset of wellbeing is far removed from mine, such as the quoted article. We are complex and unique creatures with a awesome universe of things to see, create, understand and explore. Lets learn and understand new things together as mankind, and not be biased by old books. I hope the wars and fighting in mankind's future is only the likes of Command and Conquer 47, played in a way and fashion not yet imagined. However we have only progressed so far, the threat of extremists is real. We do not need self inflicted set backs too. We have enough problems as it is. In December I will debate the panel, and as before, we will prevail. The hardship of our ancestors evolving over tens of thousands of years and hitherto must not be forgotten; we owe it to them as much as owe our children. As mankind we must progress as far as we can. Not just for the knowledge, but for our very survival.

[Chuckie]

I think I can shorten you feelings to two simple words: Horse Crap ;)

[eLDiablo]

What do you expect? Some people just can't accept that humanity is merely a speck, no larger than an atom on the grand scale of the universe. Many of those people will forever cling to literal translations of texts that have yet to evolve from when they were written simply, because "he" said so. Our race is going to die and be forgotten, and if anyone every finds the ruins of our "civilization". I'm sure they'll think of us as a bunch of douches.

[Nod Fanatic]

What do you expect? Some people just can't accept that humanity is merely a speck, no larger than an atom on the grand scale of the universe. Many of those people will forever cling to literal translations of texts that have yet to evolve from when they were written simply, because "he" said so. Our race is going to die and be forgotten, and if anyone every finds the ruins of our "civilization". I'm sure they'll think of us as a bunch of douches.
Couldn't have said it better. Nice post EL, it just about exactly reflects my view on this situation.

[Derek]

TBH this is why I think schools should never be run by religious organizations. I know someone is going to point out that religious institutions run many good schools for people who would otherwise not be able to attend them (such as within inner cities), and this is a good thing, but these institutions should just provide the resources and turn control over to a secular authority instead of trying to impose their dogma on the acedemics of the school.

[SgtRicko]

What do you expect? Some people just can't accept that humanity is merely a speck, no larger than an atom on the grand scale of the universe. Many of those people will forever cling to literal translations of texts that have yet to evolve from when they were written simply, because "he" said so. Our race is going to die and be forgotten, and if anyone every finds the ruins of our "civilization". I'm sure they'll think of us as a bunch of douches.

You fail to realize, El, that a lot of great civilizations in the past were pretty f***ed up themselves in a whole ton of ways, yet they are still remembered of and documented quite well today. Just look at the Roman Empire, for instance; though they were corrupt, overextended, and bureaucratic as hell in their later years, we still fondly remember them (even mirror them at times) for what they did in their prime.

[Gaucho8788]

Very true. I would however, like to see humanity get over themselves and try to see the bigger picture in the scheme of things, yet it doesn't seem to be heading that way. We're spiraling down towards an early molten grave.

[Toxic10x]

A few small people making a very loud noise can always raise a fuss, but even if they get articles written and spots on the news, I have some faith that the majority will eventually brush them aside. The book is still there, and it will be read by those who want to read it. They couldn't stop rock'n'roll in the 50s, and they can't stop anything else that enough people want to have.

[KrasnyOktyabr]

Are these public or private schools? I'm going to assume private, due to them being run by a religous group, in which case they have every right to pull the books if they so choose. Does this necissarily make them right? No, it doesn't, however if you disagree with them I'd assume you have alternative education options.

Now if this is a public school system, then their views should not be religiously guided, let alone biased.

[eLDiablo]

You fail to realize, El, that a lot of great civilizations in the past were pretty f***ed up themselves in a whole ton of ways, yet they are still remembered of and documented quite well today. Just look at the Roman Empire, for instance; though they were corrupt, overextended, and bureaucratic as hell in their later years, we still fondly remember them (even mirror them at times) for what they did in their prime.

Im not talking about other humans remembering us as douches.

Our race is going to die and be forgottenWe won't be remembered for anything if all we do rape the planet of its resources and leave it's climate in a state of chaos.

"Aw how cute... they thought up democracy all by themselves." please. Our species brings nothing to the table but unceasing war and ignorance.

[OneWiseJedi]

Are these public or private schools? Catholic schools I'm going to assume private, due to them being run by a religious group, in which case they have every right to pull the books if they so choose. Regardless of disposition censorship of this kind is unacceptable Does this necessarily make them right? No, it doesn't, however if you disagree with them I'd assume you have alternative education options. We do have choices. Lets not misconstrue choices for freedom, for they are not the same. That said I have fought and won against the boards before both catholic and public. There should be one train of thought in education; that should be non segregated learning, hence forgoing perpetuating lies.

Now if this is a public school system, then their views should not be religiously guided, let alone biased. Wisdom should be our guide and we must not be directed by unfounded belief in any realm.

I appreciate all the input in these postings and may I encourage more posts and points of view.

[KrasnyOktyabr]

Obviously if you're not an atheist you're stuck in the stoneage... awesome... :|

[Doh004]

TBH this is why I think schools should never be run by religious organizations. I know someone is going to point out that religious institutions run many good schools for people who would otherwise not be able to attend them (such as within inner cities), and this is a good thing, but these institutions should just provide the resources and turn control over to a secular authority instead of trying to impose their dogma on the acedemics of the school.
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you there Derek.

I believe you're making a harsh generalization of things because your statement assumes that "imposing" a dogma is a bad thing. While in this particular case it's in the wrong as they're limiting kids from reading a good series (I really enjoyed His Dark Materials). But you cannot forget that there are tons of very good educational institutions that were set up, and still run by religious groups.

While Catholicism does not follow this, I know for a fact that Protestantism would not be around if it wasn't for the education and spreading of knowledge. The protestant sect of Christianity relies on the people interpreting the bible on their own; therefore meaning they need to be educated to formulate a legit belief system.

Now have I ever gone to a religious school? Nope, never have and never will, but I can understand why people would wish to go there. A lot of aspects of religion are completely overlooked because of issues like this. This "dogma" you speak of contains so much more than say shuning away books which some interpret to go against their faith. (I personally think the Catholic League is overreacting over a fictional book).

I also think people here are overreacting over the various Catholic schools' decision to remove the book. They have every right to maintain what their libraries contain. In all honesty, the people will still get the book (or see the movie) if they're genuinely interested in it, especially now all the publicity that the Catholic league is giving it.

[Statalyzer]

Obviously if you're not an atheist you're stuck in the stoneage... awesome... :|

No kidding. Here you have people arguing for open-mindedness, tolerance, and all those other buzzwords while at the same time saying that theists are sending humanity back to the stone age, Christians hate rock music, believing in God means you just can't accept the facts, etc.

I also think people here are overreacting over the various Catholic schools' decision to remove the book. They have every right to maintain what their libraries contain. In all honesty, the people will still get the book (or see the movie) if they're genuinely interested in it, especially now all the publicity that the Catholic league is giving it.

Doh just nailed it. I personally wasn't going to see the Golden Compass anyway. I don't care if god dies in the movie or whatever the hell it is, I just realized the first time I saw the preview that some producer with very little creativity is piggybacking off of the success of The Lord of the Rings, The Chronicles of Narnia, and Harry Potter, so might as well make another epic fantasy film since those are in vogue right now.

"Some of our greatest authors, philosophers and scientists have been atheists. If books written by atheists are banned for not conforming to Catholic worldviews, will the school board proceed to ban books deemed pro-Muslim, pro-Buddhist, or even pro-Protestant if they are critical of Catholicism?," Trottier asked in a statement on Thursday.
"Pretty soon the only book in their library may be the Bible."

Trottier just layed out a textbook example of the slippery slope logical fallacy.

He's also wrong in insinuating that the school is banning all books written by atheists. Pullman has directly stated that he wrote the books in order to undermine the foundation of the Christian faith. So, it's kind of understandable that a school might not want this on its library shelf. Do you think a Muslim school would want a book written by an author who said he wrote the book so children would understand the lack of value the foundations of Islam?

Here's a quote from Pullman: "Every church is the same: control, destroy, and obliterate every good feeling." Got that? EVERY church? Sounds like an open-minded, toleratant person to me....

[OneWiseJedi]

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you there Derek. I intellectually disagree with you Doh004 Derek touches the root

I believe you're making a harsh generalization of things because your statement assumes that "imposing" a dogma is a bad thing. It is inherently bad what you say is an oxymoron While in this particular case it's in the wrong as they're limiting kids from reading a good seriesAbsurd, Its in every particular case. (I really enjoyed His Dark Materials). Neither here nor there thats subjective But you cannot forget that there are tons of very good educational institutions that were set up, and still run by religious groups. Set up OK, still run is the problem

While Catholicism does not follow this, I know for a fact that Protestantism would not be around if it wasn't for the education and spreading of knowledge.Ill let Galileo answer this one The protestant sect of Christianity relies on the people interpreting the bible on their own;You must be joking, as opposed to what? therefore meaning they need to be educated to formulate a legit belief system.I assume our definition of legit is not the same

Now have I ever gone to a religious school? Nope, never have and never will, but I can understand why people would wish to go there.These people are kids who have choices made for them A lot of aspects of religion are completely overlooked because of issues like this. Theres nothing completely overlooked nor under-minded This "dogma" you speak of contains so much more than say shuning away books which some interpret to go against their faith.Faith is a process of non thought, nothing is shunned;everything we have learned points us in a different direction and thats not dogmatic its common sense (I personally think the Catholic League is overreacting over a fictional book).So to over react to a fact book like Origin of the Species is OK? So Illogical

I also think people here are overreacting over the various Catholic schools' decision to remove the book. They have every right to maintain what their libraries contain.I wish the book was the only problem In all honesty, the people will still get the book (or see the movie) if they're genuinely interested in it, especially now all the publicity that the Catholic league is giving it.Time will tell

I'm glad you liked the book(s), I did too.

May I suggest 'The Blind Watchmaker' for a read.

Statalyzer
same time saying that theists are sending humanity back to the stone age, Christians hate rock music, believing in God means you just can't accept the facts, etc. Those are your words not mine, I talk progression Alchemy- Chemistry, Astrology- Astronomy, Religion- Science those are my words. This is my perception of sequence as well. I am defend freedom, I'm not defending Trottier I disagree with him often

[KrasnyOktyabr]

You kind of sorta all shades of piss me off.

[Doh004]

I intellectually disagree with you Doh004 Derek touches the root

It is inherently bad what you say is an oxymoron Absurd, Its in every particular case. Neither here nor there thats subjective Set up OK, still run is the problem

Ill let Galileo answer this one You must be joking, as opposed to what? I assume our definition of legit is not the same

These people are kids who have choices made for them

Theres nothing completely overlooked nor under-minded

Faith is a process of non thought, nothing is shunned;everything we have learned points us in a different direction and thats not dogmatic its common sense

So to over react to a fact book like Origin of the Species is OK? So Illogical

I wish the book was the only problem
I'm not going to quote every little part, but your post was pretty horrid. You didn't back up any of your statements, rather you stated them as fact with a condescending tone. Really don't appreciate that.

You assumed that I was supporting the Catholic league. In case you haven't noticed, I think they're being ridiculous and put forth a bad image of Christianity in general (because sadly, many people don't know the difference between Catholicism and Protestantism). I know of some other instances where they've been public about their feelings, and I often disagree with them, but dislike them for what they're saying, not because they're speaking out.

I fail to see how trying to share you beliefs with others is automatically a bad thing. Are you opposed to sharing good will towards people? What about the various aide and support programs that Churches preach about? How about giving back to the community? Not doing harm to others? What people need to understand is that the bible isn't just filled with old, outdated stories that are irrelevant in our current society. In fact, the majority of Christianity is about setting up morals and guidelines on how you should live your life.

And yes, I'm serious about Protestantism being set up on the foundation of education. Maybe you're familiar with Martin Luther? The fact that the printing presses were just starting up, more books (IE the bible) was available for the non-rich to purchase. The increase in Education (Renaissance) also enabled more and more people to become literate. Before hand, people could not read, thus they would attend Catholic mass, and not know what was going on because not only was it in latin, but they couldn't read. The fact that people now had the ability to explore their own faith, and interpret the bible in their own way enabled Protestantism to spread like wild fire.

Kids being sent to a religious school isn't their choice? Well I wouldn't doubt that because generally, Parents have control over their kids. Parents also are the authoritative heads whose job is to help their kids grow, and if so be to get a good religious background. Not everyone has to do it, and it's completely up to the parents.

I don't really understand what you're saying here "Faith is a process of non thought, nothing is shunned;everything we have learned points us in a different direction and thats not dogmatic its common sense" so maybe you can explain? And sadly I don't believe your understanding of faith is correct. You can have a different type of faith, which differs per person, which they can come up with themselves. Blind faith is perhaps what you're looking for.

Who ever said I agreed with the Catholic Leagues other decisions? Please read the posts more clearly next time.

(Sorry if I rambled, restated things, or just didn't make sense, the post I was responding to was very hard to respond to)

[Statalyzer]

I'll let Galileo answer this one

And that's relevant to this book and this particular school....how? Are you going to judge every Catholic today by what a few Catholic men did hundreds of years ago? If not, why even bring up Galileo?

Faith is a process of non thought

That's ludicrous. Faith requires thought before there can possibly be something to have faith in.

These people are kids who have choices made for them

No really? That's what part of being a kid is - your parents generally make a lot of choices for you. What's your point?

So to over react to a fact book like Origin of the Species is OK?

Who ever said that was ok? I'd think it was incredulously stupid if any school, religious or not, banned Origin of the Species, but that's not what we're talking about here, is it?

Alchemy- Chemistry, Astrology- Astronomy, Religion- Science

Well, you've made an invalid analogy there.

[OneWiseJedi]

(Sorry if I rambled, restated things, or just didn't make sense, the post I was responding to was very hard to respond to) Theres a reason for that.

I respect your thoughts and opinions.

[Fulcrum]

If they are private schools run by the Catholics then its their libraries. It should be their right as a private school to choose the books in their library, just as it is their right to choose their own curriculum.

[Alpha and Omega]

Set up OK, still run is the problem

Yes, what a day we live in where closed-minded, lifeless people are charged with teaching our children, and do nothing but wear away at the foundation of our civilizations very existance.

And no, I'm not talking about Catholics.

Ill let Galileo answer this one

And I'll just let the thousands of Christians that are killed every year by China's atheist government write their own counterpoint.

Thank you for respecting our opinions, I'll do my best to reciprocate.

[OneWiseJedi]

Yes, what a day we live in where closed-minded, lifeless people are charged with teaching our children, and do nothing but wear away at the foundation of our civilizations very existance.
I'm by no means close minded, however there is such a thing as being so open minded you brain falls out.And I'll just let the thousands of Christians that are killed every year by China's atheist government write their own counterpoint Chinas communist atheist government is wrong as well.

My whole point is we must not kill people or manipulate.

[Derek]

Well, you've made an invalid analogy there.
Actually its pretty dang valid. It represents a progression from unjustified beliefs held by tradition to justified beliefs held by observation.

If they are private schools run by the Catholics then its their libraries. It should be their right as a private school to choose the books in their library, just as it is their right to choose their own curriculum.
Of course they have the right to, no one is refuting that and no one is saying that we should march in the Mounties to reshelve the books, but that doesn't mean they should. And its really about a lot more than what books they allow and what books they don't. Its about what they teach and how.

I fail to see how trying to share you beliefs with others is automatically a bad thing. Are you opposed to sharing good will towards people? What about the various aide and support programs that Churches preach about? How about giving back to the community? Not doing harm to others? What people need to understand is that the bible isn't just filled with old, outdated stories that are irrelevant in our current society. In fact, the majority of Christianity is about setting up morals and guidelines on how you should live your life.
You need religion to teach you this?

[Doh004]

You need religion to teach you this?
No but it's a system that can help facilitate it.

[Alpha and Omega]

I'm by no means close minded, however there is such a thing as being so open minded you brain falls out. Chinas communist atheist government is wrong as well.

My whole point is we must not kill people or manipulate.

Agreed entirely.

All I'm saying is that the people who make a fuss when a school removes books written with at least a slight atheistic bent are the same as people who make a fuss when schools remove other religious books.

Fair is fair. If they remove the Golden Compass then they should remove the Chronicles of Narnia as well, or any other book the type, hell, why even let them read at all? Right.
Or, perhaps, leave them both there and let students decide what they believe.

[Doh004]

Fair is fair. If they remove the Golden Compass then they should remove the Chronicles of Narnia as well, or any other book the type, hell, why even let them read at all? Right.
Or, perhaps, leave them both there and let students decide what they believe.
Except for the fact that the Chronicles of Narnia is written by C.S Lewis who was an avid Christian. In fact, the Chronicles of Narnia was completely full of Christian based metaphors.

*edit*My sarcasm detector must have been turned off :dead:

[Nod Fanatic]

Cmon, I think It's pretty obvious that the vast majority of people, atheist or theist are ignorant. Finding a whole host of stupid people from one of these groups isn't that hard.

[Alpha and Omega]

Except for the fact that the Chronicles of Narnia is written by C.S Lewis who was an avid Christian. In fact, the Chronicles of Narnia was completely full of Christian based metaphors.

Hello, that was the point.
Not helping my case? That sucks considering both of us are on the same side of the arguement.
I'm saying it's unfair for people to scoff at this book being removed, then demand that we remove books like those by C.S. Lewis. They're no different than the people they hate.

[Doh004]

Hello, that was the point.
Not helping my case? That sucks considering both of us are on the same side of the arguement.
I'm saying it's unfair for people to scoff at this book being removed, then demand that we remove books like those by C.S. Lewis. They're no different than the people they hate.
Oh my apologies. I must have completely missed the sarcasm. I'll look for it harder next time.

[nilloC]

I feel that the entire argument of this entire thread could have been sidestepped if only one thing was read.

The very last sentence in what OneWise quoted.

The books are available to students upon request.

[SgtRicko]

My whole point is we must not kill people or manipulate.

...And just HOW are they killing or manipulating people by banning books exactly?:wtf:

[Statalyzer]

I'm saying it's unfair for people to scoff at this book being removed, then demand that we remove books like those by C.S. Lewis.

That's a good point. What's wrong with religious schools not carrying a certain atheistic book when plenty of atheistic schools don't carry certain religious books? Shouldn't there be a consistent standard?

Actually its pretty dang valid. It represents a progression from unjustified beliefs held by tradition to justified beliefs held by observation.

Here we go again. Being religious automatically means you hold your beliefs for no good reason. You can't make a good argument or analogy if you start off with biased premises that only someone who already agrees with you would accept. It's circular reasoning.

In addition, alchemy and chemistry are mutually exclusive - you can't find any good chemists who believe alchemy. Astrology and astronomy are mutually exclusive - you won't find good astronomers who subscribe to astrology. There have, however, been a plethora of good religious scientists.

[nilloC]

This thread reaks of some sort of a false dichotomy.

I'll be one of the first to admit that I'm not religious at all, however to base all of my views only on science (Which arguably is very very similar to "religion") would be incredibly dull witted. Saying you're an atheist and then banking on the "Science" card is ridiculous, which is something I think I've seen in this thread a few times over.

OneWise, you speak in such scientific absolutes that it rivals the "dogmatic" views of the "dark age religion" you're arguing against. Ironic.

[SirSnake]

wasnt that book called "The Northern Lights" originally?


I read that all the way back in year 8 (so what, 7 years ago or so).

I cant believe theres suddenly some fuss over it because they made a film and changed the name.

Heh, oh well!

[OneWiseJedi]

Thanks for your insights.

I joined this forum due to some minds I seen make postings over the years. I miss a few inputs that left or on hiatus. I'm happy many are still here.
I have myself wrote a book that will be published in early 2009. Its actually 2 books one comes with a DVD. One is for children and one for adults, both same base story. Ive had a few friends and editors read the first half of my book, they all had such a different view. Some said unbelievably great, some said well done, some said thats deep thought and compelling, it will make you trouble. I had one school board review say 'thats not their kind of book'. Of course they have the right to say that, but under what rule? Why is my book only OK for some and not others. It is fun, sound content and could be scientifically foot noted. It does not state opinion nor point of view, it states facts.

Why I wanted to write the books besides the fact I love kids.

When I was 11 years old my appendix blew up. I was yellow like the Simpson's for a few days. When I asked my Mom if I would be OK she said yes, I do not need my appendix anyway. Then I said why would God make me with something I did not need, especially when it can kill me. She did not have an answer. She just said I was created by intelligent design as did the others. So I asked the Doctor why I do not need my appendix he said we can live without it we don't need it. I said why can we live without it do we have more than one? He said no. I said thats strange. He said why? I said to have something in me I do not need. He said I sure have a lot of questions for a kid and left. My mom and dad nor anyone ever answered my questions properly.
I was a child of questions, complex for my age I drove people nuts, all I ever asked was for knowledge and the truth. No one it seemed was ever comfortable with some of the things I asked.

I got the answers on my own and was humbled often.

Thats said I have a fantastic book. Not sure what title I want to go with. "Vestigiality, your Appendix and our friend the Platypus" or something of this sort. The way it all ties together makes a profound story. One editor said it was brilliant, time will tell. Please no questions on the book, I will give any of you if you want it a PDF in the future and you can read it yourself.

I just want my book to be available to all, anywhere and everywhere in Canada. Its honest and fresh but most of all knowledge.

[Derek]

wasnt that book called "The Northern Lights" originally?
The title was changed for the American/Canadian editions. I don't know why.

[Statalyzer]

The title was changed for the American/Canadian editions. I don't know why.

Beats me. That sort of stuff happens in translations, but when people do it for English->English I don't understand it. For example, I found out today that the game I've always known as "Clue" was originally a British game called "Cluedo".

It does not state opinion nor point of view, it states facts.

I'd be interested in reading it to (among other reasons) verify the accuracy of that claim.

Your story certainly isn't bizarre but it is unique, and I think it's a good thing you wanted to ask difficult questions and not just accept everything at face value or be content with not knowing. Curiosity is just as important in science as your IQ level, maybe more so. Knowledge does have limits but it takes a rare sort of person to come close to approaching them.

I often find that a very neat and yet often annoying thing is one question usually just leads to more questions (like the stuff some people used to do as kids where they'd say "Why?" to everything you said no matter what - anyone get annoyed by that?). No matter what, you never reach the final answer, there's always another question behind the most recent one. Based on one or two sentences OWJ said about our appendix all of a sudden a ton of questions and observations start popping up in my mind.

For example, what about the spleen? We can clearly live without it, as people occasionally have to have surgery to remove it. Yet we know what function it has and it clearly isn't worthless either. For that matter, what about our hands? You can lose one or both and still live, so you don't "need" them, but they are darn sure handy to have attached and functioning. Most of what we have, we can live without; we're rather flimsy beings on the one hand but we're also quite resilient. A bit like an A-10 or one of those airplanes designed to keep flying even if it's lost half a wing, the engines are barely running, the rudder is shot up, etc. But then there's stuff like your digestive system, your heart, lungs, etc, you can't live without them. You can't live without your brain either - or can you? What about "brain dead" people who are in a vegetative state or coma? Usually that's it, but occasionally people like that make miraculous recoveries and are clearly alive. So for that matter where exactly is the line between living and not living? I could go on and on.....

[OneWiseJedi]

Statalyzer
I'm talking Vestigiality, what you say is both missing my point and confirming it. You can read the book and be harsh if you deem it so, but please wait. It might be far removed of what you think it will be.

[Alpha and Omega]

Actually, recent studies show the appendix may have some use to us. Don't ask me to produce those findings off the top of my head, but I know they're working on it.

I'd love to read your book. Considering your intelligence, I'm sure it would be interesting.

[NuclearDreams]

Interesting thread. But I think this a topic better discussed or debated in person. Passion of facts and beliefs can't be acurately expressed on a forum where the topic is most likely to lead into a religious discussion of some sorts...a discussion which is not allowed here.

[Gaucho8788]

Actually, in a way, it's already started to lead there and I figured this thread would've been closed by now but I guess the mods feel it hasn't gotten to extreme yet.

[OneWiseJedi]

NuclearDreams is right per usual, I will refrain from adding to this post.

[sg500]

Pardone my ignorrance because I've read the authors post and skipped straight to the last post so i missed alot of text.

Jedi i hope you record your debate because i wouldnt mind checking that out next month.

[Statalyzer]

Statalyzer, I'm talking Vestigiality, what you say is both missing my point and confirming it.

I think you were missing my point. I knew you were talking about vestigiality. I simply went on a trail of semi-related questions and observations to show that I think it's interesting how asking one question can lead to another, and suddenly someone is asking about an appendix and the next minute they're wondering what exactly it means to be living.

You can read the book and be harsh if you deem it so, but please wait. It might be far removed of what you think it will be.

I don't think it will be particularly anything really. I'm simply skeptical (understandably so, I hope) anytime someone says they've written something purely factual with no subjective agenda or opinions, so I'd like to find out myself and not assume anything about it in advance. I probably will be a little harsh, but I'm a somewhat harsh literary critic whether the book's main conclusions happen to be something I agree with or not.

[Alpha and Omega]

Passion of facts and beliefs can't be acurately expressed on a forum where the topic is most likely to lead into a religious discussion of some sorts...a discussion which is not allowed here.

Yes, this thread has some religious context. But I think, anymore, most of us are able to talk about that sort of thing in a mature and understanding way.

I have ideas that I believe in, and so do you. There's no reason we shouldn't be allowed to talk about them...however, there is a very fine line there.