Have the Development team lost their imagination?

[soadfan1]

Serious question on something I felt during c&c 3's development and especially now with ra3.

Has the development team for the c&c series lost all sense of imagination like its predescessors had.

c&c 3 was critisized by most fans, including Lion I remember during its development stages for its units and building design. I remember high on that list was the scorpian tank in particular and hand of nod, but also most of the structures.

c&c 3 was saved by having FMV return, and by keeping enough of the Tiberian-based atomosphere to get it through.

It was by no means a creative success, rather it JUST made it into the acceptable for a c&c canon zone. It lacked the creative spark of the mutants and creatures and general design of a world being destroyed of Tiberian sun, but it didnt completely fail to deliver on those grounds.

Quite the opposite in fact c&c 3 for the most part was extremely bland. The vast majority of units were less futuristic than Tiberian suns, and many were basic units of today with a different design. In fact some werent even bothered to be renamed from Generals!

The units and structures that didnt fail were units and structures that are carried on from the previous games, but then who could say they were truely happy with the Obelisk of Lights design for example.

This lack of creativity and imagination and simple aethsetic intelligence is what is also affecting ra3.

The structures AGAIN look bland and unimpressive, hard to tell apart, and rushed.

The units have also especially failed to impress, Japanese robots looking as predictable as was their actual inclusion into a Japanese side that was obviously going to be designed around anime. Basic Soviet and Allied tanks that look like little toys, and the scope to now include a Tesla version of a ship, something that was done by a MOD circa 1997/8 for ra1.

Sure you can call ra3 'Zany' and 'over the top' but its over the top and zany in a boring predictable way, where you simply design any unit and equip it with some slightly silly abilities or weapons. Basically I would wager that most people on this forum here could have quite comfortably designed ra3 without straining too hard.

So you might say 'what exactly was exciting and different about units from c&c ra1 and Tib sun, and ra2' (even thouigh ra2 doesnt hold too high in my books either - Yuris revenge= joke).

Well first off most werent re-hashes, most were designed in a gritty exciting way that didnt give off the feeling you were playing with toys. Tiberian suns mechs looked powerful and felt powerful, they werent extremely well detailed, but they were impressive.

ra1 brought naval conflict to the c&c universe and much more air warfare alongside it, everything was gritty and well designed, even if a few units were directly copied from the previous game.

I dont know how many would agree with me on this but do you also feel there is actually a lack of imagination in ra3?

Look beyond the fact that it may have ships that shoot bears, and jump jet robots and ask yourself 'couldnt I have jsut as easily thought of that?'

Nothing I have seen is really truely imaginative its all just the predictable level of wackiness that we may have to get used too. Will we ever see the days again when getting to the next mission and being able to unlock a new unit held so much awe and anticipation? I think not, but I'd love to be proved wrong.

-Rob

[Zardac the Great]

Part of the problem with any imaginative failing is that fans complain and whine and gripe about absolutely everything that changes.

They tried to make Tiberum Wars much like the original C&C. That caused gripes too.

[soadfan1]

Exactly they tried too hard to re-create c&c style themes, but they lacked the creativity and imagination of the original games designers. Just look at the lack of imagination in ra3 though.

[SgtRicko]

But at the same time, a lot of fans fail to realize that Tiberian Sun wasn't terribly original either. It had a lot of borrowed ideas and cliches, and the dark, gritty feel of their world was more or less copied from all the other games in the 90's that were going for the same feeling as well, which all got their inspiration from Terminator 2 and Mad Max. And don't even get started on the Mammoth MKII, which was basically an Imperial AT-AT with railguns and AA missiles!

In fact, the way I see it is that the only games that were truly original in terms of ideas in the C&C series were the original Tiberian Dawn and Red Alert 1. Tiberian Dawn did FMVs better than most other games did back then, and pretty much brought the whole concept of RTS to the spotlight. Red Alert came up with the awesome concept of using both modern-day weapons with some of the stranger weapons projects on a WWII battlefied, and even inspired some other games to copy it's ideas as well (I recall a game released a couple of years ago for the PC that more or less revolved around the idea of everybody in WWII fusing their more saner designs with some of the crazier stuff. Stuff like Nazi Rocketeers, Soviet Blimps that drop Tesla bombs, super-infantry like Captain America, British TRANSFORMERS, and literal Flying Fortresses for the Americans, just to start).

The games after these, however, never really did inspire anything fresh, with the ironic exception of Generals, which while being an awfully stereotypical "modern war" game with not a single realistic unit, ended up creating a solid support power system (i.e., General's Points) that is still used or inspired by it today.

[Zardac the Great]

Given that both the MiG that was used and the Raptor are real airplanes...and that Hummers are real...and that Commanches were just *that* far from going into production...

I think Generals did have some realistic units. Wouldn't you say? ;)

Although...aside from that I agree with you.

[soadfan1]

My point isn't really that a game hAS to have imaginative units, as Generals had mostly modern day units yet I felt its unit design and online play was excellent.

Point is Generals had nothing to fall back on, so it was a new, fresh canon, ra3 and c&c 3 had huge prequels to live up too.

The other point is that with ra3 theyre trying to be 'over the top' and 'zany' but its not actually working because all theyre doing is choosing the obvious ways to be over the top and zany.

What about instead of having an uninspired tank called a tsunami why dont they have a structure you build in the sea that creates an actual tsunami that can capsize ships and push the sea out onto the land, transforming the landscape.

Why dont they ditch the absiolutely ridiculous looking mechs and jump jet men and go for a more kamikazee based comedy. Thus mixing world war 2 realism with comedy. And no I dont care about the political correctness.

Why dont they add the ability to throw sausages for attack dogs to make them fight harder. All this sort of thing would in my opinion make the game more enjoyable as its not just over the top, its ludicrous, but not so much in a comic book style.

[GLQ_Seph]

what are you all complaining about?!

It ISN'T the original... it's CnC3 !

IT'S A DIFFERENT GAME!

If you don't like it... go ELSEWHERE! lol

[Statalyzer]

IT'S A DIFFERENT GAME!

Well, what do you know? We all thought we were getting the exact same game as Red Alert with just a new name, thanks for clearing that up.

If you don't like it... go ELSEWHERE!

That misses the point. Most of us here were fans of C&C games in the past and would like to see them continue to put out quality games and not everyone thinks they are doing that any more.

[soadfan1]

Ingore the posts that say

'Stop whining'

Or

'Just dont buy the game'

Or anything related to that, if you ginore them they will go away, keep it to the topic I made :-).

[Ivan_Moscavich]

My point isn't really that a game hAS to have imaginative units, as Generals had mostly modern day units yet I felt its unit design and online play was excellent.

Point is Generals had nothing to fall back on, so it was a new, fresh canon, ra3 and c&c 3 had huge prequels to live up too.

The other point is that with ra3 theyre trying to be 'over the top' and 'zany' but its not actually working because all theyre doing is choosing the obvious ways to be over the top and zany.

What about instead of having an uninspired tank called a tsunami why dont they have a structure you build in the sea that creates an actual tsunami that can capsize ships and push the sea out onto the land, transforming the landscape.

Why dont they ditch the absiolutely ridiculous looking mechs and jump jet men and go for a more kamikazee based comedy. Thus mixing world war 2 realism with comedy. And no I dont care about the political correctness.

Why dont they add the ability to throw sausages for attack dogs to make them fight harder. All this sort of thing would in my opinion make the game more enjoyable as its not just over the top, its ludicrous, but not so much in a comic book style.

>Why dont they ditch the absiolutely ridiculous looking mechs and jump jet men and go for a more kamikazee based comedy. Thus mixing world war 2 realism with comedy. And no I dont care about the political correctness.

That really confused me, a japense side, that lacks a suicide unit? I mean really, it probably was just due to political correctness. Though, Nod does have suicide bombers, and they're terrorists, sort of.

[soadfan1]

>Why dont they ditch the absiolutely ridiculous looking mechs and jump jet men and go for a more kamikazee based comedy. Thus mixing world war 2 realism with comedy. And no I dont care about the political correctness.

That really confused me, a japense side, that lacks a suicide unit? I mean really, it probably was just due to political correctness. Though, Nod does have suicide bombers, and they're terrorists, sort of.

Well Generals was pretty non politically correct, but ra3 wishes to be more that way it would seem.

Never mind, after all we have the power ranger style Mechs to fight with :-) Just swear under your breath a few times and drink a beer or two to remind yourself you're not 12 when playing it.

[SgtRicko]

I think RA3's biggest failing so far is it's storyline, in my opinion. It's pretty much just a retcon of RA2, only this time the tech seems have little in relation to the previous wars for some reason or another. Unless this is actually supposed to be a sort of subtle plot point that's quietly stating that the Soviets may have accidentally traveled to another universe instead of back in time, then I really don't see why anyone should have developed so oddly off kilter.

[Quadhelix]

What about instead of having an uninspired tank called a tsunami why dont they have a structure you build in the sea that creates an actual tsunami that can capsize ships and push the sea out onto the land, transforming the landscape.
Which completely ignores the question of what the Empire would use for its Main Battle Tank., if not the Tsunami. It is like saying, "Instead of giving the Soviets a tank called the Mammoth, give them a cloned, cyborg mammoth."

Not that cloned, cyborg mammoths would not be incredibly cool, but that is not the issue.


That really confused me, a japense side, that lacks a suicide unit? I mean really, it probably was just due to political correctness. Though, Nod does have suicide bombers, and they're terrorists, sort of. The Brotherhood of Nod does not exist, so nobody takes offense at them being portrayed as suicide bombers, even if they could be argued to be an allegory for real world terrorism. As for Generals, the US is not exactly on friendly terms with Islamic Extremism, so few Americans are going to object to that depiction.

On the other hand, the US is on fairly good terms with Japan, but there are some very old, very deep wounds there. On top of that, Japan probably has a much larger video game market than the Middle East.

[ArmoredBear]

I think RA3's biggest failing so far is it's storyline, in my opinion. It's pretty much just a retcon of RA2, only this time the tech seems have little in relation to the previous wars for some reason or another. Unless this is actually supposed to be a sort of subtle plot point that's quietly stating that the Soviets may have accidentally traveled to another universe instead of back in time, then I really don't see why anyone should have developed so oddly off kilter.
Eh, the alternative is "Uh oh, the Allies weren't paying attention and the Soviets build up ANOTHER army behind their back" so I can sort of understand just having the Soviets time travel back and reset things. It's not original, but it at least works I guess. The rest of the story we can't judge since nothing has really been revealed.
That really confused me, a japense side, that lacks a suicide unit? I mean really, it probably was just due to political correctness. Though, Nod does have suicide bombers, and they're terrorists, sort of.The Japanese have suicide subs, and have an ability that can have troops blow up when they're low on health I believe. No kamikaze planes, but at least there's something there. Still would have liked to see less anime robots and maybe some WWII inspired stuff mixed in.

[soadfan1]

Which completely ignores the question of what the Empire would use for its Main Battle Tank., if not the Tsunami. It is like saying, "Instead of giving the Soviets a tank called the Mammoth, give them a cloned, cyborg mammoth."

Not that cloned, cyborg mammoths would not be incredibly cool, but that is not the issue.


The Brotherhood of Nod does not exist, so nobody takes offense at them being portrayed as suicide bombers, even if they could be argued to be an allegory for real world terrorism. As for Generals, the US is not exactly on friendly terms with Islamic Extremism, so few Americans are going to object to that depiction.

On the other hand, the US is on fairly good terms with Japan, but there are some very old, very deep wounds there. On top of that, Japan probably has a much larger video game market than the Middle East.


Im not quite sure what youre argueing against here, if the Empire doesnt have Tsunami tanks Im sure the dev team can think of another unit to include for them? I was just stating that the Tsunami is a boring unit in title and design. Its like theyre reading from a script.

Plus Generals had an un p.c chinese side as well and U.S are fine with China.

[Quadhelix]

Im not quite sure what youre argueing against here, if the Empire doesnt have Tsunami tanks Im sure the dev team can think of another unit to include for them? I was just stating that the Tsunami is a boring unit in title and design. Its like theyre reading from a script.
Well, they do have to name it something, and "Tsunami Tank" is a far more interesting name than "Light Tank" or "Amphibious Tank." Also, it is a Main Battle Tank, and those tend to be fairly boring. Still, the Tsunami Tank has a Kagami Armor ability (which completely absorbs a single attack), the Hammer Tank has a Leech Beam ability (which steals an enemy's weapon), and the Guardian Tank has a Target Painter ability (which causes other friendly units to do more damage against a target), and these abilities arguably make these units more unique and interesting than any Main Battle Tank in the previous Command & Conquer games, which had no unique abilities at all, with the lone exception of the Tick Tank from Tiberian Sun.

[yurihomer]

to be honest, i think they had "too" much imaginations... and its unreal now

like wtf, the man cannon ship

wtf, the bear with soviet helmet

wtf, all the jap robots that go insane transformation that doesn't even follow the real day physics rule an d to be honest, i thought red alert is about soviet vs allies, the communism vs capitalism, since when did they ever include japan in there?

and the japan hero unit... that is just unreal....

and the vacum bomb... wtf is that... like i thought soviet is all about NUKE!

[soadfan1]

When I say lacking imagination I dont mean the units are like basic battle tanks at all.

What Im saying is that the 'over the top' and 'zany' contributions they have made are boring and predictable.

Making the Japanese contain Anime style robots and the likes was obvious. Having the Soviets choose bears as their animal was obvious. They try to pretend its 'over the top'... actually its pretty obvious and bland.

[Quadhelix]

Making the Japanese contain Anime style robots and the likes was obvious. Having the Soviets choose bears as their animal was obvious. They try to pretend its 'over the top'... actually its pretty obvious and bland. Now that you mention it, EA does seem to be aping the fan community to an extent: the Eagle Red mod introduced the idea of replacing Yuri with the "Asian Alliance" years ago.

That said, as "predictable" as some of these ideas may be, gameplay is what really matters in the end. The ability to shrink units, launch troops into the middle of an enemy base, and fire torpedoes across the map are all abilities that, to my admittedly limited knowledge, have never been included in an RTS game before. If there are flaws in their presentation, that still takes something of a backseat to the fact that these are new gameplay elements that are, to a lesser or greater extent, new and interesting.

[apple23]

Most of the "over the top/zany" elements of the game are actually highly origional, and however predicatble it was that the japaneese faction was based off anime, the units still have very unique abilities that have never been introduced in a remotely similar fashion before.

In the end, I personally believe that it is the gameplay that the new over the top units introduce, not the creativeness behind thier design. I eman come on, almost every aspect of most every RTS game was more or less inspired by something (Even Tiberium, no matter how origional it was, was inspired by Dune's Spice)

[Wildfire]

Just from what I've seen the game is highly imaginative. Although it does borrow some ideas, there's a lot of cool stuff...

as for no japanese suicide unit, Teh Yuri Sub and Final Squadron :P

i also think if we want these games to sell in japan, it'd be better if we don't remind them of the time 1,000's of them risked their lives only to get nuked by us don't ya think?

As for the tanks c'mon, it's better the "light tank' "med tank" "mammoth tank" Heavy tank" so, how was the original c&c games more original? the light tank was basically a bradley, med tank the abrama, and heavy tank and mammoth tank were originally ideas that hitler came up with. and then there was the destroyer, cruiser, flank tank c'mon...they didn't even come up with names just what it is. If anything, it takes quite a bit of imagination to give the units names other than "light bomber" "heavy bomber" (vindicator & century)

[Doh004]

Just from what I've seen the game is highly imaginative. Although it does borrow some ideas, there's a lot of cool stuff...

as for no japanese suicide unit, Teh Yuri Sub and Final Squadron :P

i also think if we want these games to sell in japan, it'd be better if we don't remind them of the time 1,000's of them risked their lives only to get nuked by us don't ya think?

As for the tanks c'mon, it's better the "light tank' "med tank" "mammoth tank" Heavy tank" so, how was the original c&c games more original? the light tank was basically a bradley, med tank the abrama, and heavy tank and mammoth tank were originally ideas that hitler came up with. and then there was the destroyer, cruiser, flank tank c'mon...they didn't even come up with names just what it is. If anything, it takes quite a bit of imagination to give the units names other than "light bomber" "heavy bomber" (vindicator & century)
You do realize that at the time, when CNC and RA came out, the games were incredibly creative because no one had ever made a RTS of that type?

[Thumper]

a japense side, that lacks a suicide unit? I mean really, it probably was just due to political correctness.

so now accurate world history is politically incorrect?

[Wildfire]

You do realize that at the time, when CNC and RA came out, the games were incredibly creative because no one had ever made a RTS of that type?

of course I do, I'm not denying that it was innovative, but imaginative? No...especially the names.

[LaughingCheese]

The units and structures that didnt fail were units and structures that are carried on from the previous games, but then who could say they were truely happy with the Obelisk of Lights design for example.
-Rob

I am.

If you're talking about the new look of the Obelisk, yes, I LOVE its new design.

I've been told its less powerful than TS, but then again it fires faster too.

Part of the problem with any imaginative failing is that fans complain and whine and gripe about absolutely everything that changes.

They tried to make Tiberum Wars much like the original C&C. That caused gripes too.

Indeed. Too many whiny people.

But in some aspects you can't blame them; EA is the Microsoft of games, something was definitely lost when they gobbled up Westwood.

[WNxAnthrax]

I feel the same way. I don't like how the game plays now. Most units are able to go over water and land and some are even able to jump cliffs? Wheres the ideals in that to make it all work successfully? I've given up on playing on the beta cause theirs really not much tactics in it atleast imo.

The graphics.. While the land and sea looks AMAZING the units and buildings look like utter crap. Reminds me alot of WoW... I really hope that they change that before its actually shipped because this will be my first C&C game i don't buy.

[apple23]

Actaully only a select few units are amphibious. So far from what I have seen, The allies have the riptide APC and the assault destroyer, the soviets have the bullfrog and the stingray, and the Empire has the Sea Wing and the Tsunami Tank.

Did I miss any?

[Derek]

Terror Drones, Tengus, and Sudden Transports (rounding out the APCs) are also amphibious, as well as all MCVs, dogs, bears, engineers, and commandos. That sounds like a lot but bear in mind that most of those are support units.

I feel the same way. I don't like how the game plays now. Most units are able to go over water and land and some are even able to jump cliffs? Wheres the ideals in that to make it all work successfully? I've given up on playing on the beta cause theirs really not much tactics in it atleast imo.

The graphics.. While the land and sea looks AMAZING the units and buildings look like utter crap. Reminds me alot of WoW... I really hope that they change that before its actually shipped because this will be my first C&C game i don't buy.
Actually there is a hell of a lot of tactics in it. Put units on cliffs and they are immune to most other units, while being able to fire down from above. You can use amphibious units to attack from behind, but they will lose to dedicated naval units (likewise to dedicated land units). And if you've ever played an Empire mirror you will know the importance of timing your transformations right.

[Cleric]

I love you soadfan1 and completely agree with you. RA3 is just another game.

I have downloaded the beta and the only faction I play is Japan, I wont go anywhere near Soviets or allies because it's all copy and pasted from RA2 and i'v played RA2 thanks EA. Same with C&C3 the faction I whored was Scrin.

RA3 is far from a seriouse game and it's time to have fun with some wierd ideas such as soadfan1 has already suggested but all we have is your basic tank firing shells and choppers firing rockets yay :color2:

I would have liked to see a huge ass mech hero that could walk in the sea and pull ships under water instead of a lame school girl.
Instead of dogs having the same ability as bears, they can sniff an enemy unit and keep track of it so you see wherever that unit goes. It's just boring having copy+paste units in the same game but different factions.

[Derek]

I wont go anywhere near Soviets or allies because it's all copy and pasted from RA2
Wow. Seriously, actually look at the factions before dismissing them. Seriously. The Allied and Soviet factions are nothing like the RA2 factions. Oh, and learn what the 'F' key does.

Instead of dogs having the same ability as bears, they can sniff an enemy unit and keep track of it so you see wherever that unit goes. It's just boring having copy+paste units in the same game but different factions.
The only two units in the entire game that are anywhere remotely copy-paste are the dogs and bears. They have the same ability for important balance reasons. All other units in the game are completely unique.

[Cleric]

"important balance reasons"...lol
Is it balanced that soviet engineers can deploy a bunker and Japans have a tiny speed boost that after warning off freezes the engineer? Is it balanced that soviets don't have to sacrifice a unit to kill garrisoned units? Is it balanced that soviets have one click kill powers which is receiving a buff in the next patch? Me thinks no to all so lets not go into stupid balance discussions when Mr. Black has no clue to what he is doing. Just look at the C&C3 and KW patches. The amount of huge game changes that were made in all the patches and he is doing the same with RA3 now.

[Ivan_Moscavich]

so now accurate world history is politically incorrect?

Unfortuantely it seems so.
You can't remind germany of the holocaust, it's politicly incorrect.
You can't remind the soviets of the guulag, politicly incorrect.

Honestly, people these days are way to ****ing serious, and I know, I am one of the most serious people out there, the difference is though, that I have the abillity to lighten up and have a good time.

[Ivan_Moscavich]

"important balance reasons"...lol
Is it balanced that soviet engineers can deploy a bunker and Japans have a tiny speed boost that after warning off freezes the engineer? Is it balanced that soviets don't have to sacrifice a unit to kill garrisoned units? Is it balanced that soviets have one click kill powers which is receiving a buff in the next patch? Me thinks no to all so lets not go into stupid balance discussions when Mr. Black has no clue to what he is doing. Just look at the C&C3 and KW patches. The amount of huge game changes that were made in all the patches and he is doing the same with RA3 now.

The power isn't one click kill, it requires two. The first power, the magnetic beam, takes them into space, it is a sealed vehical, they can survive on the air they have for a while. They die when you use the orbital refuse power and they come crashing back down to earth.

[Derek]

You're kidding, right? You really think there is a difference between being sucked into space and dieing?

[Ivan_Moscavich]

You're kidding, right? You really think there is a difference between being sucked into space and dieing?

Yes, if the thing you are sucked into space is sealed, you can survive for a period of time on the air inside it, you would not die instantly.
That's just common physical knowlege.

[apple23]

Yes, if the thing you are sucked into space is sealed, you can survive for a period of time on the air inside it, you would not die instantly.
That's just common physical knowlege.


There is no breathable air in space. That's just common physical knowledge.

Unless they poured oxygen into the space they are being sucked into, they are dead.


"important balance reasons"...lol
Is it balanced that soviet engineers can deploy a bunker and Japans have a tiny speed boost that after warning off freezes the engineer? Is it balanced that soviets don't have to sacrifice a unit to kill garrisoned units? Is it balanced that soviets have one click kill powers which is receiving a buff in the next patch? Me thinks no to all so lets not go into stupid balance discussions when Mr. Black has no clue to what he is doing. Just look at the C&C3 and KW patches. The amount of huge game changes that were made in all the patches and he is doing the same with RA3 now.


It is balanced that the engineer gets a speed boost, because he must rest afterward. Yeah, that may give him a slight advantage in the short term, in the long run his pace remains the same, running or not.

The soviet's engineer can bunker up, right? that gives him extra defence, but he can't move while inside it. That's balanced.

The fact that soviets don't need to sacrifice units to clear a garrison probably plays into an overall faction strength.

All factions get point-and-click destruction powers, to my knowledge.

And lastly, please refrain from flaming/direct insulting in boards like these.

Flame all you want at Flamerz corner.

[Statalyzer]

Yes, if the thing you are sucked into space is sealed, you can survive for a period of time on the air inside it, you would not die instantly.
That's just common physical knowlege.

But for game purposes the unit might as well be dead, so the actual laws of physics don't matter - although most vehicles are not totally sealed anyway.

[Derek]

Even if its sealed. Explosive decompression.

[Ivan_Moscavich]

There is no breathable air in space. That's just common physical knowledge.

Unless they poured oxygen into the space they are being sucked into, they are dead.



It is balanced that the engineer gets a speed boost, because he must rest afterward. Yeah, that may give him a slight advantage in the short term, in the long run his pace remains the same, running or not.

The soviet's engineer can bunker up, right? that gives him extra defence, but he can't move while inside it. That's balanced.

The fact that soviets don't need to sacrifice units to clear a garrison probably plays into an overall faction strength.

All factions get point-and-click destruction powers, to my knowledge.

And lastly, please refrain from flaming/direct insulting in boards like these.

Flame all you want at Flamerz corner.

I didn't say there was breathable air in space, I said they could breath the air they had avalible, if the vehical was properly sealed.
I was not aware I was flaming or insulting people.

Even if its sealed. Explosive decompression.

That's what happens when you go too deep in the water, OR if there is a breach in the air or in space. As long as the vehical remained sealed, there would be no explosive decompression.
****, I forgot, pressurization. Okay, so if you used it on an aircraft or submarine, they'd be alive for the initial part. Although, i'm fairly sure the apoc was presurized, I thought I read somewhere the old mammoth tank was sealed and pressurized, explaining how radiation didn't effect the crew inside. (RA2 manual maybe)
So, any unit that is sealed AND pressurizied would be alive in space.

[Lazzars]

Explosive decompression.

no (http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970603.html) such (http://www.sff.net/people/Geoffrey.Landis/vacuum.html) thing
(http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=472062&lastnode_id=0)
for unshielded humans anyway

[MercZ]

Part of the problem with any imaginative failing is that fans complain and whine and gripe about absolutely everything that changes.

They tried to make Tiberum Wars much like the original C&C. That caused gripes too.

I agree. The community always sends mixed signals as to what we really want in a game. It seemed to an outside observer that C&C Generals was blasted for not deserving the C&C title in the first place, and its game mechanics wrecked the feel of C&C. So, they turn around and go back to the old C&C style, which despite the denial of some, is actually how it was.

So due to the different art styles that would result from a different staff than that working on TS, we get a different look at the universe. We get angry for them making units bland, especially on the GDI side. Now, C&C Generals seems to be viewed in a higher light than the outside observer initially assumed. Hell, even though TS is praised, it had its share of issues when it was released. I remember people were bagging on its graphics, and calling the Nod cyborgs "disney clowns", the Nod flamethrower a "sardine can of doom", and so on, and calling the gameplay dull in some areas. Orca bombers FTW.

So they're going to get "creative" by taking the RA universe as a backdrop, a "bold" art direction, and returning the power system from Generals due to complaints that it should've not been removed from C&C 3.

Though in the long run, the art direction is only a part of the appeal. Game mechanics and moddability really play a part as well in how long a game can be kept alive.

So, do we change the game to match what we think an RTS should be and get hordes of complaints from one crowd that ultimately devours all the fans, or do we keep it to an older formula and get raped from the other end?

[Derek]

I'm not talking about the human body (a person would die due to any number of causes almost immediately after being sucked into space, including your blood boiling, which has nothing to do with water like one of your links said, its dissolved gasses in your blood that boil, not water), I'm talking about the craft they're in. It probably would not actually explode, but like a Submarine in deep water but reversed. A small puncture would form and all the air would rush out in a matter of seconds (or if it wasn't rapid enough, more holes would form due to pressure not being relieved). Without any external pressure to normalize the internal pressure, it couldn't hold together. Even a pressurized aircraft would not be able to with stand a vaccuum, its designed to hold together in the lower pressures of the high atmosphere, not the zero pressure of space.

[apple23]

I agree. The community always sends mixed signals as to what we really want in a game. It seemed to an outside observer that C&C Generals was blasted for not deserving the C&C title in the first place, and its game mechanics wrecked the feel of C&C. So, they turn around and go back to the old C&C style, which despite the denial of some, is actually how it was.

So due to the different art styles that would result from a different staff than that working on TS, we get a different look at the universe. We get angry for them making units bland, especially on the GDI side. Now, C&C Generals seems to be viewed in a higher light than the outside observer initially assumed. Hell, even though TS is praised, it had its share of issues when it was released. I remember people were bagging on its graphics, and calling the Nod cyborgs "disney clowns", the Nod flamethrower a "sardine can of doom", and so on, and calling the gameplay dull in some areas. Orca bombers FTW.

So they're going to get "creative" by taking the RA universe as a backdrop, a "bold" art direction, and returning the power system from Generals due to complaints that it should've not been removed from C&C 3.

Though in the long run, the art direction is only a part of the appeal. Game mechanics and moddability really play a part as well in how long a game can be kept alive.

So, do we change the game to match what we think an RTS should be and get hordes of complaints from one crowd that ultimately devours all the fans, or do we keep it to an older formula and get raped from the other end?


Much of the CNC community is so obsessed with keeping all the old CNC traditions and game mechanics alive that when a major change comes along, they are so busy pissing and moaning that they don't realise what a great change they made and what a great game they are pissing and moaning about (This applies especially to CNC Generals. Many CNC fans absolutely refused to play generals because it had a totally new game mechanic and a totally new feel to it and they couldn't take the change, even if it was really for the better (The resourcing mechanic for the most part, here.))

[MercZ]

Much of the CNC community is so obsessed with keeping all the old CNC traditions and game mechanics alive that when a major change comes along, they are so busy pissing and moaning that they don't realise what a great change they made and what a great game they are pissing and moaning about (This applies especially to CNC Generals. Many CNC fans absolutely refused to play generals because it had a totally new game mechanic and a totally new feel to it and they couldn't take the change, even if it was really for the better (The resourcing mechanic for the most part, here.))

I agree, yet in any direction they go you're guaranteed to get a really vocal part of the community angry that will eventually force a number of other fans to feel the same.

RA3 looks nice design-wise, a bit too bright and cartoony, but hey, they wanted "art and style" ;).

This is an interesting thread, I hope we can have some more relevant replies.

[apple23]

The bright and cartoony storyline has actually turned out to annoy me, despite what I said earlier about being O.K. about it.

I really wish they had a more serious storyline, but gameplay looks awesome, and that in itself is enough to sell the game for me, even though I would really prefer both. (They can't please everyone everywhere, can they?)

[goshuntoku]

I happened to genuinely dislike Generals. I remember being excited about it and wanting to like it but for some reason I just didnt. It felt clunky to me, or something like that. Every once in awhile I'll reinstall it and see if I like it and every time I'm once again disappointed.

As for this one, I'm a little disappointed about the retcons but it kinda makes sense. I'm also really disappointed about Yuri. I know that a lot of people thought the Yuri faction was a bad idea and I'm okay with it not being included but Yuri was so freakin' cool I'm really pissed that he won't be showing up at all. Hopefully in an expansion. The actor didn't die or anything did he? If I were him I'd be pissed right now >.>

As for the imaginative factor of this game, I think it is ok to work with the stereotypical stuff, i kinda like it. That is sorta the point. I guess they could have been more creative but things like the anime stuff and old-school Japan stuff (shinobi, etc.) is what makes them Japanese. I thought just including the totally new Japan faction was a pretty creative idea. Some of their other new ideas like the bullfrog are cool too. Its creative enough for me.

[apple23]

I happened to genuinely dislike Generals. I remember being excited about it and wanting to like it but for some reason I just didnt. It felt clunky to me, or something like that. Every once in awhile I'll reinstall it and see if I like it and every time I'm once again disappointed.

Generals felt "clunky" how so?

As for this one, I'm a little disappointed about the retcons but it kinda makes sense. I'm also really disappointed about Yuri. I know that a lot of people thought the Yuri faction was a bad idea and I'm okay with it not being included but Yuri was so freakin' cool I'm really pissed that he won't be showing up at all. Hopefully in an expansion. The actor didn't die or anything did he? If I were him I'd be pissed right now >.>

The idea of having Yuri in the game was pretty good, but it was executed horribly, and I mean horribly. The storyline was pretty run-of-the-mill ("I'm going to control the world and you can't stop me!"), and the multiplayer faction Yuri was horrendously overpowered in the hands of a decent player.

If they try to bring Yuri back (At this point I somehwat doubt it), then they better make an interesting storyline for him, and actually make a good balance and not have such crap units like the magnetron. YURIko (Get it?) omega is already bad enough.

As for the imaginative factor of this game, I think it is ok to work with the stereotypical stuff, i kinda like it. That is sorta the point. I guess they could have been more creative but things like the anime stuff and old-school Japan stuff (shinobi, etc.) is what makes them Japanese. I thought just including the totally new Japan faction was a pretty creative idea. Some of their other new ideas like the bullfrog are cool too. Its creative enough for me.

Having common or historical units of the real-world faction in the game isn't a bad idea, just having the common and sometimes offensive stereotypes (suicide bombers in generals (terrorists) has to be changed in mid-eastern versions of the game as to not offend anyone). If you aren't careful about it, it can really undermine your storyline, like in Generals.

Otherwise, I think the creativeness is great in this game.