Some counters for Tank General

[Miles]

Many people say the Tank General is the weakest to play online against humans with. But I recently started to play with him because I simply like the Elite/Autoloader/DepletedUranium Battlemaster combined with Gatts and a few Emperors.

Anyways, since I'm not used to him, I guess his main tactic is to form a good combination of these units and attack with them. But what's the best way to rush with Tank? A bunkerlix? Dragon tanks? I found dragon tanks to be very useful, but on maps lie Twilight Flame (3v3) it takes too much time for it to reach the enemy.
So what would you suggest?

Also, the minefield upgrade around key structures like WF and Supp Depot is the best way to counter TechTerrors and Demobikes right?

[C4]

U're on the way of knowing how to use him. When u speak of rushes with him (and rushing is his game) it depends on many aspects like enemy factions, map, etc to be possible to give u an answer. One thing i can tell u, tank is not that suited to 3v3 maps. The major Tank flaw is its speed. Therefore the larger the map the weakest he gets.
As u say, dragon/Lix are good to counter early GLA tunnels, for example.
Mining key structures is good also against early vee rush and sometime nuke BM rush.
Good luck with tank, u'll need it. :)

[Derek]

All Chinas are considered to be weak at the top level of play, but tbh if you come down just a bit from that they're well balanced. Your key disadvantage is lack of speed.

Tank Gen doesn't really have any rushes, just start sending Gatts down flanks as soon as you can, don't wait to mass. If you're playing another China then early you will mostly be making LOs and BMs, if you're playing GLA Gatts, Dragons, and some BMs or LOs, and if USA Gatts and vet TCs.

Late game involves using a mixed force of OLs (or autoloader BMs against GLA), ECMs, Bunkerlix, MiGs, and maybe Gatts or Dragons.

[Miles]

Thanks to the both of you.
Yeah I noticed speed is the biggest weak spot of Tank. Nuke doesn't suffer from it that much because he has Nuclear tank upgrade from start... I have to spend time and money making a prop center first, then a nuke silo then the upgrade itself.

Personally I'm not too fond of Twilight Flame... for 3v3 I prefer Defcon 6 since bases are closer to each other and rushing is a bit easier to do with slower units.

Yesterday my teammates were a Toxin and Demo. We played well together (especially me with the Tox guy). I tried to rush but it failed since it was Twilight Flame... I tried to harass them but it's really not easy on that map IMO. Anyways later, we attacked together: I had a group of elite Autoloader BMs with the nuclear upgrade, some Gatts, some ECMs and a couple of Emperors for the prop towers (something I remember from what you said in another thread long ago Derek: don't mass just Emperors :-) ) fogot to make LO's though... I'll think of that next time. My Tox ally had Scorpions with Rockets, Buggies, Quads and a few Gammabuses.
My units seemed to attract all the attention of the defensive units in the enemy base. While my group was taking care of that, Tox's forces rushed in and raped the rest of the base.

We were all quite new to ZH against humans so our micro probably sucked but still, I thought it was nice teamplay.

You can expect more questions from me in the future as I play more games and encounter more situations. Once thing I've been wondering since yesterday though: is it a good idea to make an Internet Center? made one to put a few hackers in, but it got raped by a 3 star demo ambush.
If the IC is obsolete, where would you place your hackers so that they're more or less safe? Somewhere in the back of the map, near allied tunnel networks so that they have some defense or what? They're so vulnerable :(
Also, what's the upgrade that you should get quickest? My bet is Autoloaders, but I could be wrong.

[Derek]

fogot to make LO's though... I'll think of that next time.
Don't mix units just for the sake of mixing. Build LOs late game for stealth detection and early game to counter China and USA tanks.

Once thing I've been wondering since yesterday though: is it a good idea to make an Internet Center? made one to put a few hackers in, but it got raped by a 3 star demo ambush.
If the IC is obsolete, where would you place your hackers so that they're more or less safe? Somewhere in the back of the map, near allied tunnel networks so that they have some defense or what? They're so vulnerable :(
Also, what's the upgrade that you should get quickest? My bet is Autoloaders, but I could be wrong.
Build the IC. Level 3 Demo Ambush is OP, there is nothing you can do about it.

[Miles]

Level 3 Demo Ambush is OP, there is nothing you can do about it.
I know and I hate it. The Artillery Barrage at least you can do something about it if it's targetting a gruip of your units. A10 Strike you can also move away or shoot the planes if you have lots of AA. But that demo ambush.... pfffft.

I watched some tank replays of team games and is it just me, or is the best early game counter for MDVees Gatts? To be honest, I have no idea what else could be good against them. Migs are okay, but they're expensive and you need a lot of space for your airfields.

[Derek]

Yes, Gatts and Troop Crawlers. What you really want to do with that gatts though is kill some chinooks.

And BN MiGs are very effective against vees.

[Miles]

Here I am again with questions. Played a 3 VS 3 match yesterday on Defcon 6... Made a server without rules but for noobs only. It was vUSA+AFG+Tox against Tox+Inf+Tank(me)
I tried to rush the vUSA guy by killing his nooks with a Gatt (and being branded "noob rusher" by the same occasion...) which worked, but as my Dragon tank came in to lite the place on fire, the middle guy (AFG) raped my Gatts and my Dragon with his flying pieces of crap Raptors.
So all I did is delay the vUSA guy slightly while my teammates didn't rush at all and didn't get rushed. Rushing seems to be a lost at these days.
I was in the lower left corner, Inf in the middle and Tox in the lower right. Tox was too busy dealing with the other Tox right above him but the AFG guy just kept sending raptors to kill whatever came out of my WF. I placed an LO in the middle of my base to see if he didn't Spydrone me but that wasn't the case.

Inf guy was just sitting there amassing bunkers and infantry without doing anything to help me or Tox while he barely got attacked. Result: my anks kept getting raped and eventually got overwhelmed by vUSA's Paladins. I standed no chance against this... what could I have done? Spam Gatts? But those don't stand a chance against vUSA's tanks. I made ECMs to try and limit the KR's damage, but that didn't help too much. I just kept getting swarmed by those KR. vUSA and AFG were really working well together.
I made BN Migs to rape Lamevees but this became useless once the Lamevees got excorted by Avengers.

Any suggestions against getting swarmed by KRs? Or was this just a hopeless situation?

And being the only one on a team to rush is not fun :(

[nyarlathotep]

That infantry guy should have had the decency to put at least a squadron of minigunners in your base, but anyhow...

Next time if you notice that your teammates don't rush, keep your troops at home, coz you can't take it up against 3 human players on your own. So yes, turtling - however boring it might sound- is the only tactic left. But as one of my favourite flavor-texts goes: "American cowards, fight on the ground, like men!", there's very little you can do against raptors, exept spamming gat's and guarding your airspace with mig's.

And every usa has a big leap on intelligence, sice they have quite a lot of hidden units with a decent spy ability (sniper & drones) and they have 2 buildings that do some detection (detention camp & command center)

But, since my experience in human vs human is rather limited, I could be totally wrong, but our experts will certainly point out my mistakes :)

[Derek]

Any team with AF gen > any team without. The fact that you had n00b teammates didn't help you either.

[Miles]

I still consider myself to be a noob too though. Although not as noob as your average "ZOMG NoRUSH! NO Aur! NO DEMO! 2 BB MAX! GROUNDWARZZZ" noob. But yeah I was pretty helpless against the AFG guy. Not to mention the vUSA guy was not a noob like the rest of us... I guess he joined in because he wanted an easy win.
I better ake sure I have an AFG in my team next time if the opponents have one.

By the way, when people talk about "pro-rules"... what do they mean? Do they mean norush/noSW/etc or what?

[C4]

I better ake sure I have an AFG in my team next time if the opponents have one.Tank performes well vs AFG if rushes properly and if there isn't a GLA defending him. AFG+GLA is practically unbeatable without other AFG.

About your other game, if your Inf mate moved his ass a bit more with some minis (in attack mode) or ATC, things should be much different (pity he was a turtler).

By the way, when people talk about "pro-rules"... what do they mean? Do they mean norush/noSW/etc or what?
pro-rules=no rules tbh. :)

[Miles]

So lately I've been playing with nuke too (at least his OL's and BM's are faster)
I know the best rush against any USA player is sending some gattling tanks to kill his nooks. Battle masters seem to be ok against MDVees since they move faster than the normal BM, they already have the uranium shell upgrade and they leave radiation (or would you recommend another tactic early game)

Now I've won one 3v3 game on Defcon 6 with nuke but I have to admit my direct enemy neighbor above me didn't expect my rush. He probably thought norush games are a standard so he gave up once his nooks were dead and my BM came in to dozer hunt (he did say "OMG norush" to me when his nooks crashed *sigh*)
So it became 2 vs 3, I had a tox and a stealth on my side so from there it wasn't too hard, but it's not really a "well deserved win" since my opponent simply wasn't preparing for a rush. If my rush had failed, the game would have ended differently obviously.

However, I've been wondering: is it better to asap make a prop center and make OL's with ECM's or would you recommend making a prop center only later and first invest in other things?

Also to be honest, except from some very strategic places, I never build stationary defenses (except for one bunker with one soldier inside to "scare" the opponent off and force him to invest in artillery or find another way in). I prefer defending my base with units but what is best against what army? I guess a bunkerlix is good against GLA, but against tank it's useless right? What's best against a USA player as defense? I really hate MDVees. MiGs are good against them but they're expensive and need to reload after each bombing run.

And last but not least, my usual attacking group is 3-4 OL's with prop-towers (with subliminal messaging), a bunch of gattling tanks and many ECM tanks. Basicaly, I have more or less as many ECM tanks as I have other tanks in my group. Is that a good thing? I find it very effective to order ECMs to disable an enemy vehicle and once it's disabled, immediately target another vehicle, etc so that the enemy units really have a hard time actually shooting at me :)

And the best rush against China/GLA is a dragon tank right? Is it better to escort it by a BM (and move the BM away from the dragon if it's close to destruction)?

Thanks

[C4]

So lately I've been playing with nuke too (at least his OL's and BM's are faster)
I know the best rush against any USA player is sending some gattling tanks to kill his nooks. Battle masters seem to be ok against MDVees since they move faster than the normal BM, they already have the uranium shell upgrade and they leave radiation (or would you recommend another tactic early game)They are ok agaist MDVees since they can surprise them with its speed but it will happen rarely and against a lonely vee only. Also experienced players will micro the vees enough to rape the BM. Anyway it's a choice. U may catch a dozer along with it...


However, I've been wondering: is it better to asap make a prop center and make OL's with ECM's or would you recommend making a prop center only later and first invest in other things?
Depends on how the game is going. If u feel your opponent is being hit on the loin then u can make pressure by making more units to pressure him there. If u see u need new options then the PCenter is needed asap. Most games can make use of a fast PC build but as i said, it depends. Against USA, a pair of migs may be more useful first. Anyway a propLord+gattlord+ECM combo will cause trouble to vees . Against GLA, ECMs are most welcome but not always the OLs. Horded BMs are very useful if used right. Chinas games do make very good use of Lotus and ECMs. If the cash allows it and u're not that pressured then build it.
Also to be honest, except from some very strategic places, I never build stationary defenses (except for one bunker with one soldier inside to "scare" the opponent off and force him to invest in artillery or find another way in). I prefer defending my base with units but what is best against what army? I guess a bunkerlix is good against GLA, but against tank it's useless right? What's best against a USA player as defense? I really hate MDVees. MiGs are good against them but they're expensive and need to reload after each bombing run.
U're in the right way by not making that much defenses. Anyway a well placed one can save u from a lot of trouble. Both bunker or gattcannon are very good against vees (gattcannon is vulnerable to tanks but only 2 USA's have them), so one can shut off the flank allowing u to concentrate elsewhere.

And last but not least, my usual attacking group is 3-4 OL's with prop-towers (with subliminal messaging), a bunch of gattling tanks and many ECM tanks. Basicaly, I have more or less as many ECM tanks as I have other tanks in my group. Is that a good thing? I find it very effective to order ECMs to disable an enemy vehicle and once it's disabled, immediately target another vehicle, etc so that the enemy units really have a hard time actually shooting at me :)
U don't need to make a prop tower in every OL. One or two will suffice. Gattlords are good anti-infantry/light-vehicle as well as detector for mines/traps and hijackers. U point a good use of the ECMs. They're supposed to be used that way.
And the best rush against China/GLA is a dragon tank right? Is it better to escort it by a BM (and move the BM away from the dragon if it's close to destruction)?
Against stealth it is one of the best rushes, but against other GLAs it MUST be escorted everytime or u'll be just delivering scrap for their marauders. It keeps being one of the most useful units to fight the GLA though. Just don't forget its escort.
Chinas have a lot of counters for the dragon (tanks, gatts and even LO if microed well) but it may sometime sneak on an undefended spot, and if it does it's barbecue time...

[Derek]

They are ok agaist MDVees since they can surprise them with its speed but it will happen rarely and against a lonely vee only. Also experienced players will micro the vees enough to rape the BM. Anyway it's a choice. U may catch a dozer along with it...
Yeah. If you can get the vee in red (two shots) it will slow down and then you can catch it. So 2 BMs can kill a long MDvee, and its not a bad idea, but won't work well against two or more vees or even just a better opponent. Dozer hunting USA is very good though since it denies them S&D. Sending a gatt down one flank and a BM can be very effective against USA.

Depends on how the game is going. If u feel your opponent is being hit on the loin then u can make pressure by making more units to pressure him there. If u see u need new options then the PCenter is needed asap. Most games can make use of a fast PC build but as i said, it depends. Against USA, a pair of migs may be more useful first. Anyway a propLord+gattlord+ECM combo will cause trouble to vees . Against GLA, ECMs are most welcome but not always the OLs. Horded BMs are very useful if used right. Chinas games do make very good use of Lotus and ECMs. If the cash allows it and u're not that pressured then build it.
Unupgraded Nuke Migs are useless, don't get them. I'ld try to get a Prop Center fairly quickly since its so effective, but you don't want to stall your unit production for a long time waiting for the cash. Usually you can collect money slightly faster than you can spend it, so this eventually leads to enough left over to build a Prop Center. If you see your enemy teching though, immediately start building a Prop Center.

U're in the right way by not making that much defenses. Anyway a well placed one can save u from a lot of trouble. Both bunker or gattcannon are very good against vees (gattcannon is vulnerable to tanks but only 2 USA's have them), so one can shut off the flank allowing u to concentrate elsewhere.
I like the bunker with one red guard inside, most players will completely avoid Bunkers until they think they can kill them, so it would actually be a pretty effective deterrent.

Against stealth it is one of the best rushes, but against other GLAs it MUST be escorted everytime or u'll be just delivering scrap for their marauders. It keeps being one of the most useful units to fight the GLA though. Just don't forget its escort.
Chinas have a lot of counters for the dragon (tanks, gatts and even LO if microed well) but it may sometime sneak on an undefended spot, and if it does it's barbecue time...
I wouldn't send an unexcorted Dragon against Stealth anyways. Nothing quite as painful as getting a Dragon Tank hijacked right outside of your WF. DTs are the main reason Stealth will get a couple of quick hijackers. Once the DT has a firewall up in front of a tunnel the hijacker can't get to it, but he can just wait until the tunnel is destroyed and the firewall goes away to capture the Dragon. Keep a LO nearby to detect hijackers though and the DT can easily kill them.

[Miles]

Thank you very much for your tips. They are all very usefull and I can't wait to play some REAL game at a LAN party this weekend :)
Yes I think sending a dragon tank in unescorted is even more dangerous when you're against stealth. Not only you would lose your DT, but it can be used against you too.

So what's the best thing to use against MDVees as nuke? Since MiGs seem to be useless pre-tech (and you don't often have the time/money to build a nuke silo and upgrade them...) and BM's are a good counter but far from perfect, I suppose I either have to pressurize the USA player so much that he doesn't have the occasion to send his MDVees to my base, or I have to get ECM's as quickly as possible.

And yeah Derek, that's exactly what I use the bunker for. One red guard so that it looks filled but the opponents don't know what's inside so they avoid it, or they're forced to build artillery which buys you some time and costs him money.

[Derek]

So what's the best thing to use against MDVees as nuke? Since MiGs seem to be useless pre-tech (and you don't often have the time/money to build a nuke silo and upgrade them...) and BM's are a good counter but far from perfect, I suppose I either have to pressurize the USA player so much that he doesn't have the occasion to send his MDVees to my base, or I have to get ECM's as quickly as possible.
Like every other China, Gatts and vet TCs and/or THs work well. Your TCs and THs are cheaper than Tank's, but your Gatts aren't as good. A surprise Gattlix can also be effective (emphasis on the surprise, if they know its coming they'll get TOW missiles and **** it up the ass, in general I wouldn't recommend it). I'ld say just keep him busy with Gatts and TCs on one side while trying to flank a BM at his dozers to kill tech. You want to keep USA busy in multiple areas, so a lot of pressure is always key. Once you tech, ECM/OL/Gatt is very effective. Like all Chinas, try to get control of the middle supplies around mid game.

[Miles]

Like every other China, Gatts and vet TCs and/or THs work well. Your TCs and THs are cheaper than Tank's, but your Gatts aren't as good. A surprise Gattlix can also be effective (emphasis on the surprise, if they know its coming they'll get TOW missiles and **** it up the ass, in general I wouldn't recommend it). I'ld say just keep him busy with Gatts and TCs on one side while trying to flank a BM at his dozers to kill tech. You want to keep USA busy in multiple areas, so a lot of pressure is always key. Once you tech, ECM/OL/Gatt is very effective. Like all Chinas, try to get control of the middle supplies around mid game.

Thank you for your advice. I'll remember that next time I find someone decent to play against (decent as in no crappy rules)

[C4]

:)Unupgraded Nuke Migs are useless, don't get them.
I was thinking about napalm migs (i lost a bit o focusing and forgot we were talking about nuke ones...:D). Those are very good but that we already know.

I like the bunker with one red guard inside, most players will completely avoid Bunkers until they think they can kill them, so it would actually be a pretty effective deterrent.
Pretty much. Sometimes the empty bunker works by itself if the opponent don't look that closely. I tend to use a TH or 2 as soon as i can though.
I wouldn't send an unexcorted Dragon against Stealth anyways. Nothing quite as painful as getting a Dragon Tank hijacked right outside of your WF. DTs are the main reason Stealth will get a couple of quick hijackers. I forget we are talking 1.04 too often :D (1.06 makes hijacks pos-AD, therefore DTs are the absolute enemies to tunnel spam).
Your advice fits perfectly. LOs are absolutely needed after the first minutes in any version anyway. A fellow gatt may prove very useful as part of the trio Dtank/LO/Gatt helping a lot against RPGs or a detected hijacker. Techterrors (i mean with Stealth since other GLAs usually will use a pair of Scorps to do it ) keep being enemy of DTs which will have more chances if escorted by a gatt.