Questions of Morality

[Quadhelix]

In my earlier "Moral Ambiguity and Absolutism in Command&Conquer (http://forums.cncden.com/showthread.php?t=22673)" Thread, I noted the somewhat gray morality in the Command & Conquer series of games: the "good guys" are not completely good and the "bad guys" are not completely evil.

What baffles me, however, is the insistence that many seem to have that the Brotherhood of Nod is the "good" side and GDI is evil. For example, in this thread (http://forums.ea.com/mboards/thread.jspa?threadID=401644&tstart=135) on the EA Support Forums, one user appeared personally offended by Nod's use of cyborg infantry in Tiberian Sun and Kane's Wrath, as though the Brotherhood was a paragon of morality in the original Command & Conquer. He conveniently forgets that, in the original Command & Conquer, Nod attacked civilians in Nod Mission 4 (http://cncworld.org/index.php?page=games/tiberiandawn/walkthrough/nod4ea) (both of them (http://cncworld.org/index.php?page=games/tiberiandawn/walkthrough/nod4eb)), Nod Mission 7 (a (http://cncworld.org/index.php?page=games/tiberiandawn/walkthrough/nod7ea),b (http://cncworld.org/index.php?page=games/tiberiandawn/walkthrough/nod7eb), and c (http://cncworld.org/index.php?page=games/tiberiandawn/walkthrough/nod7ec)), Nod Mission 9 (http://cncworld.org/index.php?page=games/tiberiandawn/walkthrough/nod9ea) (both (http://cncworld.org/index.php?page=games/tiberiandawn/walkthrough/nod9eb)), GDI Mission 4 (http://cncworld.org/index.php?page=games/tiberiandawn/walkthrough/gdi4wb), and GDI Missions 8 (http://cncworld.org/index.php?page=games/tiberiandawn/walkthrough/gdi8ea), assassinated a political opponent in Nod Mission 1 (http://cncworld.org/index.php?page=games/tiberiandawn/walkthrough/nod1ea), and concluded their campaign with the destruction of a major landmark, resulting in dozens of civilian casualties.

This does not even begin to cover Tiberian Sun, in which Nod once again levels a civilian settlement for propaganda, displays distinctly genocidal tendencies toward the forgotten, employs a Tiberium-based weapon that devastates much of Western Europe.

In short, while GDI might not be an absolute paragon of morality, the Brotherhood is certainly not the better answer.


Any feedback would be appreciated.

[SgtRicko]

My guess is it's the very same reason why some people end up falling to the Dark Side (not just in Star Wars, but in science fiction in general): they end up thinking that the relatively minor hypocracies and flaws in the "good guys" side is more than enough of an excuse for a another group to react more harshly and violently, even if it was the opposition that caused the problem in the first place.

This is especially true in the case of Nod. since the facts presented throughout the series more or less imply that it was Nod, not GDI being neglectful or beauractic that caused tiberium to spread throughout the planet in such a short time since the meteor landed at the Tiber River.

[Pheonix]

I Personaly believe GDI has more secrets than they let the public know, in the third one you are pretty much forced to use a liquid T weapon that pretty much wipes out the world, and if you listen carefully in TD all of GDI's tiberium harvesting technology is of NOD origin, and then GDI deosnt seem to be able to keep a leader for a single war :P

[Statalyzer]

My guess is it's the very same reason why some people end up falling to the Dark Side (not just in Star Wars, but in science fiction in general): they end up thinking that the relatively minor hypocracies and flaws in the "good guys" side is more than enough of an excuse for a another group to react more harshly and violently, even if it was the opposition that caused the problem in the first place.

You should see the stardestroyer.net guys, most of them seriously think the Empire (pretending it actually exists) isn't even evil.

[Quadhelix]

My guess is it's the very same reason why some people end up falling to the Dark Side (not just in Star Wars, but in science fiction in general): they end up thinking that the relatively minor hypocracies and flaws in the "good guys" side is more than enough of an excuse for a another group to react more harshly and violently, even if it was the opposition that caused the problem in the first place.
Alas, this is far too true.


I Personaly believe GDI has more secrets than they let the public know And that justifies Nod's slaughter of innocent civilians...how?


in the third one you are pretty much forced to use a liquid T weapon that pretty much wipes out the world If you are refering to the end of the GDI Campaign, that is one of two possible endings, and the use of the Tib-lq bomb was provoked by a man that Kane maneuvered into power.

If you are referring to the destruction of Temple Prime, then you should know that that explosion was planned by Kane, adding millions to the number of civilians whose deaths the Brotherhood has ordered or orchestrated.


and if you listen carefully in TD all of GDI's tiberium harvesting technology is of NOD origin So? That still neither explains nor justifies Nod's wholesale slaughter of civilians.


and then GDI deosnt seem to be able to keep a leader for a single war :P Yet again, this provides neither explanation nor justification for Nod's premeditated murder of innocent civilians.

[Zardac the Great]

Yes, Nod is undeniably evil.

As is the Empire.

Revan was right, though.

I don't like GDI for several reasons, mainly philisophical. However, they are so far superior to Nod, that I would gladly join them. Just like the Jedi. The entire Jedi mindset is anathema to me, and many of their actions I see as evil. They're just so much better than the Sith, that I can kind of overlook some of it.

[SgtRicko]

You should see the stardestroyer.net guys, most of them seriously think the Empire (pretending it actually exists) isn't even evil.

That site, along with it's administrator, are uber-fanatical to the franchise; ANY type of critism, even if supported by what happens on screen within the movies themselves, will be shot down, condemned, and said to be against what they've already "concluded" so fast that you'll barely have a chance to even gain any type of debate ground whatsoever. Hell, the owner even tries to state that Stormtroopers are RAILGUN-PROOF, yet says that a mere rock can take 'em down due to head trauma or something!:irked:


(And keep in mind that this critism of that site is coming from a fanboy that favors the Star Wars side of things when it comes to sci-fi in general...:| )


......And now back on topic. The only thing that really sucks about the GDI as a whole is that they had to be based upon the single, most politically bloated, beauractic, and convoluted organization in human history: the United Nations. Seriously, the very fact that they're held to the image of that damn thing is what has caused the GDI so much issues, hiccups, and setbacks, up until C&C3, in which case the blunders were actually both part of Kane's plans and their own tactical incompetence (the whole Philadelphia disaster is the best example. Boyle don't count, since that guy was a complete tool from the start).

[Quadhelix]

The only thing that really sucks about the GDI as a whole is that they had to be based upon the single, most politically bloated, beauractic, and convoluted organization in human history: the United Nations. Seriously, the very fact that they're held to the image of that damn thing is what has caused the GDI so much issues, hiccups, and setbacks, up until C&C3, in which case the blunders were actually both part of Kane's plans and their own tactical incompetence (the whole Philadelphia disaster is the best example. Boyle don't count, since that guy was a complete tool from the start). On that note, I find it interesting that GDI was even formed, given that, according to this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6906MLBkIsM), China-a nation with veto power on the UN Security Council-is a "Nod" nation. The fact that the Brotherhood effectively allowed the creation of its worst enemy is...ironic or suspicious.

Conjecture: the Brotherhood of Nod allowed the creation of GDI in order to produce an antagonist against which they could rally third world opinion, increasing Nod's influence over the developing nations.
Evidence: None, other than the fact that GDI was created by the UNSC in spite of heavy Nod influence over a permanent (thus veto-empowered) member of the UNSC.

[Statalyzer]

That site, along with it's administrator, are uber-fanatical to the franchise; ANY type of critism, even if supported by what happens on screen within the movies themselves, will be shot down, condemned, and said to be against what they've already "concluded" so fast that you'll barely have a chance to even gain any type of debate ground whatsoever. Hell, the owner even tries to state that Stormtroopers are RAILGUN-PROOF, yet says that a mere rock can take 'em down due to head trauma or something!:irked:


(And keep in mind that this critism of that site is coming from a fanboy that favors the Star Wars side of things when it comes to sci-fi in general...:| )

Oh, I know - it's amazing how intellectually brilliant someone can be and yet utterly lack common sense. It's even more amazing when a large mass of people is put together and you still can't find any decent sense in the group.

[Lazzars]

On that note, I find it interesting that GDI was even formed, given that, according to this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6906MLBkIsM), China-a nation with veto power on the UN Security Council-is a "Nod" nation. The fact that the Brotherhood effectively allowed the creation of its worst enemy is...ironic or suspicious.

could be a number of explanations including barring china from the UN for some reason on perhaps forcing the chinese away from the UN somehow

maybe its just the territory under nod control or something and not the government

maybe the permanent spot is given back to the ROC for some unexplained reason

kane would not be foolish enough to create an entity capable of challenging him on the world stage

all conjecture as there is no real proof anywhere to be had

[Quadhelix]

Oh, I know - it's amazing how intellectually brilliant someone can be and yet utterly lack common sense. It's even more amazing when a large mass of people is put together and you still can't find any decent sense in the group. Rule of thumb: the collective IQ of a group of people is inversely proportional to the size of the group.


all conjecture as there is no real proof anywhere to be had Hence the reason I labeled it "conjecture." The fact that Kane spends the better part of both Command&Conquer and Tiberian Sun trying to eliminate GDI would seem to indicate that the Brotherhood does not see GDI's existence as desirable.


could be a number of explanations including barring china from the UN for some reason on perhaps forcing the chinese away from the UN somehow

maybe its just the territory under nod control or something and not the government

maybe the permanent spot is given back to the ROC for some unexplained reason Or perhaps it was simply an oversight on the Brotherhood's part, as when GDI effectively "played dead" and Nod didn't bother to follow up to see if GDI's funding had actually been cut.


kane would not be foolish enough to create an entity capable of challenging him on the world stage Perhaps, although Kane may have had his uses for GDI, such as providing an opponent against which he could rally his followers or (if he knew about the Scrin at the time) as meat shields against the invaders.