Lion's Weekend Blurb - Sat., Sun., Oct. 4-5

[Lion]

I really do hate to get political again, but it's hard to stay away from it. That crazy $700 BILLION rescue package was finally passed on Friday. It's suppose to prevent an economic collapse here in the USA. Yep, the US government has boldly gone where no man has gone before. As if the $700 billion wasn't enough, the US Senate in all their infinite wisdom tacked on an additional $110 billion in tax and spending provisions. They had to sweeten the pot to attract votes. Economic experts are still unsure if the bailout package will work. Everything hinges on IF the financial institutions that are being rescued can get back on their feet. Yep, time will tell I suppose. Meanwhile, America goes deeper and deeper into debt. But after $10 trillion or so, who's counting. My big fear is someday these HUGE digital billboards will greet visitors to the USA with the message 'PROPERTY OF CHINA'.

[Korona]

It's the difference between a slow deflation and a sudden pop. With no access to credit many businesses would have ground to a halt and the domino effect would have brought down a huge chunk of the economy. At least this slows things down and prevents mass unemployment.

Also remember that this is a "bail-out" for those poor families who were sold this "toxic" debt by the predatory lenders in the first place. Millions would have been made homeless without this passing so it offers respite for everyday people as much as wall street.

The bottom line is that the US GDP is 14 trillion per year. 700 billion to prop up 14,000 billion seems like a bargain to me.

[Mpdabunny]

A Capitalist society is no longer a Capitalist society once the government starts using taxpayers' money to bail out non-governmental companies. If this bill was so important, all those politicians that wouldn't vote for it in the first place, should have voted for it the first time. Not wait til they add more money to it, and make themselves out to be hypocrites.

Politicians are garbage. They need to fire every last one, and start with a clean slate. We're living in a country governed by a hypocrisy. :wtf:

[Korona]

Demanding that the market forces be allowed to continue unchecked in the face of total collapse seems analogous to ordering everyone to go down with his ship instead of getting out the lift boats.

Politicians may be garbage but at least they are somewhat accountable. Sadly the people in the firms behind this mess are unaccountable and can't be hounded out of their positions of power. If it were up to me the whole system would be reformed to change that.

[Ace]

Maybe it really is time for a change in america?
Not republican or democrat but social democratic :D
Start with fireing a bunch of politicians and form a real goverment and kick the president and have a prime minister instead.

[Mpdabunny]

All elected politicians in any government are corrupt. They're more worried about doing what's seen more favorably, than what's right, to try to get themselves or a member of their party elected.

If you want a politician that does what he or she feels is "right", you'd have to change the system fundamentally. Like.. lets say lower their yearly salary of a Congressmen or Senator to a nice real world amount like.. 40-80 grand. Make the job extremely hard, make the perks few and far between, and overall make the job so HORRIBLE only those who care about a greater interest beyond themselves would even want the job. :rolleyes: Our politicians are over-payed, under worked, pampered morons.

[SgtRicko]

.If you want a politician that does what he or she feels is "right", you'd have to change the system fundamentally. Like.. lets say lower their yearly salary of a Congressmen or Senator to a nice real world amount like.. 40-80 grand. Make the job extremely hard, make the perks few and far between, and overall make the job so HORRIBLE only those who care about a greater interest beyond themselves would even want the job. :rolleyes: Our politicians are over-payed, under worked, pampered morons.

To save you from a really long morality story and how "noble-minded" folks sometimes end up being 100x worse than a fat-cat politician, I'm just going to say this. Not only would you end up discouraging a huge amount of people from ever wanting any type of high-level office or political post, but you'd also end up insuring that the folks who do indeed know what the hell they're doing (but at the same want a good salary along with a perk or two) would end up sticking to the private sector, where those types of things will be available and plentiful for them. As a result, the requirements and standards for the position would probably end up getting toned down considerablt so as to encourage people to try to take the job.

Or better yet, here's a question to answer your question: would you want to be held responsible for all of your constituents, attend all of the meetings, events, charities and such, maintain your personal image, work overtime, and deal with all of the negative critism that comes with the job, all for that level of pay you mentioned with no benefits aside from the mandatory stuff?

[Mpdabunny]

My point is that these morons are over-payed, over-pampered, and 90% of the time ONLY concerned with themselves, and holding their office. You're talking about people that are payed nearly $200,000 a year, take "vacations" constantly for WEEKS, and drag their feet no matter how important the issues are. Did I mention the fact that 90% of them are also partisans who just want to make the other party look bad or their own party look good?

My post was meant to speak of an ideal, of a person who's supposed to "serve" the people, and puts their service before themselves. The type of person many politicians would like us to believe they are, but very few are.

[SgtRicko]

You're starting to sound a heck of a lot like Anakin from Attack of the Clones, especially with the whole "all politicians are corrupt and evil and need a strong, pure guy in charge" vibe...:|

[Mpdabunny]

Lol.. I'm not a huge Star Wars fan, so I wouldn't use that example, but yeah, my view of politicians right now is pretty bleak. These people haven't been doing a damn thing but bickering for years. I guess that's what they usually do, but it has been worse lately.

Seriously... when politicians vote down a bill saying it's too expensive, then vote for it when it comes back even more expensive.. heh.. They only care about "opinions" of them, not the wisdom of their actions.

[Derek]

Also bear in mind that the lower the salary the fewer people can actually hold the post. If they made only $40K (your lowest example), only rich people could be politicians because $40K wouldn't be enough to raise a family + enormous travel costs + campaign costs. Rich people already have a large advantage in elections because they can run more expensive campaigns, but if you lower the salaries it would be impossible for others to be politicians. (This is actually the original reason that politicians were paid)

[Mpdabunny]

Doesn't the government cover their work related travel costs? They certainly cover it when they go out to lunch and rack up a $100+ for a single meal. Maybe 40k is low, but they certainly don't need almost $200k.

[Derek]

I don't know, its possible. Point being they need a salary of something.

[Korona]

It's political power. The sallery is totally irrelevant. For right or wrong people go into politics for the power, not the wages. Compared with other areas of power though, politicians are reasonably accountable for what they do. They can baffle you with campaign ads and stuff but at least you can vote for the suckers.

The main problem is that many areas of power, especialy economic power, are totally unnacountable and it means when we have a mess like the current one, these guys can get away with it. We want to see them booted out on the street but we don't get a say.

[Mpdabunny]

I'm sure some are there for power. However, I'm sure a lot are there because it's a very well paying job, with little work, long frequent vacations, great perks, not to mention money and favors from "lobbyists".

Yeah, I can even see the money argument is weak. I'm just.. err steaming as much as anyone else over them dragging their feet to fix a situation that effects the entire nation.. while not so much them with their big paychecks. Hell, if it starts to effect them, they'll just vote to raise their pay.. AGAIN. Ugh.. Or.. well, they don't vote to "raise" it they vote against not raising it. Their pay system is as corrupt as they themselves are.

I'm not a big believer in the bailout either. I heard someone call it a "crap sandwich" that sounds about right. I'm not buying this chicken little BS.

There are a lot of problems. Like term limits.. though that's more than just the Congress and the Senate.. once they get elected their focus goes right back to being re-elected back to their nice comfy jobs. :irked: They get elected.. and they start running again immediately. They get elected to get something done for the "people", but all they do is stay in this perpetual campaign state, more worried about appearances of their actions than anything else.

[Pr0SEAL]

I'm sure some are there for power. However, I'm sure a lot are there because it's a very well paying job, with little work, long frequent vacations, great perks, not to mention money and favors from "lobbyists".

Yeah, I can even see the money argument is weak. I'm just.. err steaming as much as anyone else over them dragging their feet to fix a situation that effects the entire nation.. while not so much them with their big paychecks. Hell, if it starts to effect them, they'll just vote to raise their pay.. AGAIN. Ugh.. Or.. well, they don't vote to "raise" it they vote against not raising it. Their pay system is as corrupt as they themselves are.

I'm not a big believer in the bailout either. I heard someone call it a "crap sandwich" that sounds about right. I'm not buying this chicken little BS.

There are a lot of problems. Like term limits.. though that's more than just the Congress and the Senate.. once they get elected their focus goes right back to being re-elected back to their nice comfy jobs. :irked: They get elected.. and they start running again immediately. They get elected to get something done for the "people", but all they do is stay in this perpetual campaign state, more worried about appearances of their actions than anything else.

Don't forget their health benefits too. Anyway on to the subject, these officials are suppose to represent us. "We the People", but the problem is we don't have enough of that anymore. The bail out passing is proof of this. Most of them represent the special interest on both sides, and everyone of them gets some kind of a kick back aside from their wages. The General Election is a joke, both of them don't give a rat's ass for this Country. They just want the power, and continue on their agenda even if it takes America further down the tubes and it will.

[Korona]

Well the good thing about democratic institutions is that people are incentivised to work towards the public good else they loose their job, which is different to the bankers where its all about personal gain even at the expense of the public good.

My own view is that the banks had the politicians over a barrel, there was little they could do at this late stage. If the banks went down they would have taken the rest of the economy with them.
There clearly should be change but it needs to be aimed at addressing the structural problems in the economy. Ideally to prevent this type of crisis from ever occuring.
The cause of the crisis was banks looking out for the own short-term self interest at the expense of the long term and of society at large. Extending democratic accountability and oversight seems the best method to address this. If they were to make it so the voters do get to boot these guys out if they screw up, then ultimatly their profits must be balanced against long term stability and the greater good.

Will this happen? No but it's nice to dream :)

[Mpdabunny]

The problem with the "democratic" argument is they work very hard to "appear" to be doing what's right. Most voters don't pay enough attention to really understand the motivations of these people to know if they're working for themselves, or the people who elected them. I guarantee all those congressmen saying NOTHING was wrong with these banks 4-5 years ago, while others told them flat out that there was, will be re-elected to their nice comfy jobs. Just watch.

[Statalyzer]

What's really ridiculous is that Congress voted down one bailout bill, and then came out with a WORSE VERSION and passed that one! I'm generally in favor of lower taxes but if we're going to blow 700 billion dollars it's stupid to lower taxes because that just makes it harder to come up with the money without sinking our blissfully ignorant selves farther into debt. So the second bill that passed with a bailout plus tax cuts was inferior to the first, whether you were in favor of the bailout or not.

Demanding that the market forces be allowed to continue unchecked in the face of total collapse seems analogous to ordering everyone to go down with his ship instead of getting out the lift boats.

The problem here is "The market would have collapsed" is an opinion being presented as fact.

It's also a very short-term view of things. By bailing out failing companies we are encouraging companies to make the same decisions that lead to these failures in the first place because we've removed the risk to their bad behavior. This current overdramatized "market collapse" wouldn't even have been a problem if not for a previous bailout that improved things short-term but in the long-term made companies more likely to pursue the same policies that, sure enough, lead to the same situation happening again.

You let the full consequences happen once, the market takes a natural dip, companies fold, and then by natural selection you end up with the more sound companies still afloat and the market is healthier in the long-run because nobody else wants to take risks that are likely to make their company die.

None of what I said there should be controversial, because it's all based on fundamental principles of human behavior.

Politicians may be garbage but at least they are somewhat accountable. Sadly the people in the firms behind this mess are unaccountable

They are definitely unaccountable when they make dumb financial decisions and the government rewards them for it by paying them huge sums of other peoples' money!

[Thumper]

oh yeah, this presidential administration is real accountable.

[Korona]

I think there are plenty of incentives already for companies to act in their own short-term interests rather than in the wider and more long term interests of society at large. The bail-out doesn't really seem to be the key issue since it is addressing a problem that should never have happened in the first place. The issue for me isn't really whether the bail-out is right or wrong but that the financial system itself needs a major overhaul. Either that or let everyone borrow directly from the Federal Reserve and cut out this volatile middle-man entirely.

[Mpdabunny]

*Watches the stock market sink like a lead ship* Hahahahaha.. Yeah, The government really hit it out of the park with that bill. :drunk:

I give up on trying to understand this crap. From what I've read the problem was excessive leading here in the U.S., and these giant banks buying "bad paper" or loans that people couldn't pay back. After seeing how it's affected the rest of the world.. errm. Excuse me for being dumb, but how do corrupt banks here effect the rest of the world to this degree :freek:?

No politicians are taking responsibility for this mess. You know... Bush couldn't have burst into Congress toting a gun and threatening these morons to oversee these banks. Though.. all the people who portray him as a warmonger idiot would have crapped their pants with glee if he had.

Everyone one dropped the ball.. right back to Clinton. The finger pointing is just annoying, people need to start losing their jobs, and their political careers overall.

[ein1017]

Excuse me for being dumb, but how do corrupt banks here effect the rest of the world to this degree :freek:?


Well our banks deal with other banks and companies in other countries. That is what happens in a global economy. It works vice versa too, foreign banks have investments in American companies so if they fail.....