Lion's Daily Blurb - Wed., - Friday, Feb. 4-6

[Lion]

The new economic stimulus package that the US senate is currently debating over is crammed full of pork-barrel spending. The proposed package has now grown in size to over $900 BILLION. A lot of the money in the package will benefit labor unions and liberal groups that helped get Barrack Obama elected President. Over 40% of this new stimulus package has NOTHING to do with creating jobs or helping the housing industry and peeps losing their homes. Granted, the actual pork that's in the package amounts to around $20 BILLION bucks. It's not a huge percentage of the $900 BILLION, but still no chump change. The package for instance includes over $120 million for new furniture for government offices, and $100 million to reduce the hazards of lead-based paints. Most paint manufacturers have stopped making lead-based paints years ago. Anyhoot, it might sound like I'm nit-picking, but unnecessary spending at a time in US history where our economy is nearing collapse is totally uncalled for. Obama did say in January that he would bar ALL pork-barrel spending. 'TAKE THIS PORK AND SHOVE IT!' Of course, the only people that believe that live in Fantasyland. Was that a pig I just saw flying over my house? Obama has a lot of democrats to pay off, and this new economic package will address that nicely for him. The American taxpayer is getting screwed, and there ain't anything we can do about it. I am optimistic that the US economy will eventually recover, but at what cost?

[truefeel]

I think you are looking things a bit too pessimistic, just b/c he is not the one you voted for. Keep an open mind. The money he does not spend on economy, will most likely be spend on welfare.

Anyhoot, 900 billion is a whole lot of money. That's almost triple the amount of the GDP of belgium. It's for the little man in the world completely surrealistic :looklive:.

[nilloC]

It'll be interesting to see this money go towards education, healthcare, and infrastructure investments instead of tax cuts and banks.

Granted, a large portion is unfortunately going towards tax cuts still (around $275 billion if I recall).

It is unfortunate there is "pork barrel spending", and it is misuse of tax payers money. But there does need to be some kind of government intervention during this economic crisis; the US is not the only nation to pass massive stimulus packages.

[truefeel]

yeh, look at Germany. Their GDP is only a fraction of the American GDP, yet they pumped a few months ago 600 billion euro's in the banks. That's I think roughly equal to what America is doing now.

[Ace]

Hell everybody is doing stim packs for the economy!
But hey nobody just wants to sit and watch everything sink down without trying to do something. :p
Well didn't he say he was going for infrastructure changes and replacing radiators in old goverment buildings and some other enviromental stuff? :D

[truefeel]

Happy 2006 peoples! :D Be happy and safe all! :)

Hey Ace, I don't know how they count years in Sweden, but in Belgium it's already 2009 :p.

[PennStateMatt]

I think you are looking things a bit too pessimistic, just b/c he is not the one you voted for. Keep an open mind. The money he does not spend on economy, will most likely be spend on welfare.

Anyhoot, 900 billion is a whole lot of money. That's almost triple the amount of the GDP of belgium. It's for the little man in the world completely surrealistic :looklive:.

I agree with true. Lion you mentioned some unnecessary spending, but what do you think Bush has done in 8 years? We are in such a hole right now thanks to that idiot it's unreal. You can say i'm putting too much blame on Bush, but im sorry to say that I contributed to his disapproval rating from day 1 he was elected.

[Lion]

I agree with true. Lion you mentioned some unnecessary spending, but what do you think Bush has done in 8 years? We are in such a hole right now thanks to that idiot it's unreal. You can say i'm putting too much blame on Bush, but im sorry to say that I contributed to his disapproval rating from day 1 he was elected.


So for the remainder of Barrack Obama's presidency, anything that IS bad or goes bad will be blamed on Bush? The time to look back in the past is gone. It's water over the bridge. Obama made a lot of promises to get elected. He's the one that touted CHANGE FOR AMERICA, and labeled himself as the savior for America.

Bush didn't put us in the hole we're in right now. Blame can be distributed to both democrats and republicans alike, and of course the greedy banks (credit cards) and wallstreet thugs.

[Derek]

I think you are looking things a bit too pessimistic, just b/c he is not the one you voted for. Keep an open mind. The money he does not spend on economy, will most likely be spend on welfare.
First of all, welfare spending doesn't help the economy. Second, its not even going to welfare to begin with. Its going to office furniture.

No, this is not what the country needs right now. Not at all. I would be interested, though, to find a list of exactly where all this money is going, does anyone know of a link?

[eLDiablo]

I think you are looking things a bit too pessimistic, just b/c he is not the one you voted for. Keep an open mind. The money he does not spend on economy, will most likely be spend on welfare.

Anyhoot, 900 billion is a whole lot of money. That's almost triple the amount of the GDP of belgium. It's for the little man in the world completely surrealistic :looklive:.
You can't spend your way out of debt.

[truefeel]

Did I say that ? No I did not. It CAN help though. Unfortunaly, you cannot know for sure it will. You need to wait a few years to see the result.

[nilloC]

The time to look back in the past is gone. It's water over the bridge.

Since I'm a history kind of guy, and it's sort of what I am going to go to grad school for next year, and that means I kind of want it to be my profession, I'm just going to point out that's an incredibly dangerous statement.

[eLDiablo]

This is the 2nd or 3rd Stimulus plan. Bringing the total spent to over a TRILLION Dollars.

The federal reserve, prints the bank notes that we trade in. They lend these bills to the government with the expectation of being paid back with interest. They continue to print fresh money to pay for these things but fail (or not) to realize that flooding the market with bills devalues the currency they represent in the first place.

The effects of inflation in America has hardly been felt, but it's been obviously occuring since the early 1900s if not before. When the "bubble" pops, **** will get bad.

[nilloC]

No, this is not what the country needs right now. Not at all. I would be interested, though, to find a list of exactly where all this money is going, does anyone know of a link?

Good question. I actually just got done skimming through certain portions of this, #2 is the bill that passed the house and the one I'm going to discuss briefly (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.1:). It sucks to read, but I'll tip off some of the important titles.

Title II deals with housing and rural development; an example is $2.76 billion to assist with waste removal and advancement in rural areas.

Title III seems important, as it is the "technology" based arm of the branch. An interesting point to note is the amount of money to improve wireless and broadband technologies (almost $4 billion!). Also there is a neat little section on the analog-digital television conversion thing.

Title IV is shorter and deals with additional funds to assist with defense infrastructure.

Title V has to do with energy, which I spent a lot of time looking over some of the renewable energy programs and "advancements" in that area.

Title IX was probably the most interesting to me, it had to do with the humanities and education programs. Really there is so much to go over I'm not going to bother.

If you have the time, it is most certainly worth looking over some of the programs mentioned. Going through and reading this behemoth of a bill really gives insight towards the massive scale of it. It's quite amazing, in my humble opinion. :p

[PennStateMatt]

Since I'm a history kind of guy, and it's sort of what I am going to go to grad school for next year, and that means I kind of want it to be my profession, I'm just going to point out that's an incredibly dangerous statement.
Yes agreed. Those who do not study history and learn from mistakes are bound to repeat it.

[truefeel]

The federal reserve, prints the bank notes that we trade in. They lend these bills to the government with the expectation of being paid back with interest. They continue to print fresh money to pay for these things but fail (or not) to realize that flooding the market with bills devalues the currency they represent in the first place.

I'll have to repeat myself from other topics: Printing more money does not change a thing. In order to create more REAL money, they need to print money AND give it an extra value. printing more money without doing that will decrease the overall value of money. I don't know if this is some kind of myth that is inbetween the American people or that the goverment is really that stupid to print foolishly money (which they did in the past and completely backfired in their face btw).

First of all, welfare spending doesn't help the economy. Second, its not even going to welfare to begin with. Its going to office furniture.

That was not my point, genius. If you read my post, you'll notice I seperated the 2. Welfare is not a bad thing, you know. Secondly, if it's not spend on welfare, I beg your pardon.

[Thumper]

black people would go ape (pun intended) if they found out obama was the biggest scam artist in US history... world history for that matter.

[nilloC]

black people would go ape (pun intended) if they found out obama was the biggest scam artist in US history... world history for that matter.

I don't even know how to ****ing respond to that. I can't even begin to fathom the intricacies of that statement. Truly a genius this world is not yet ready for.

[GoMilton]

I have absolutely no faith in the stimulus package. Its just another stimulus package created by the same retards that created the last one. It will be so loaded up with crap that nothing will get accomplished.

[Derek]

I'll have to repeat myself from other topics: Printing more money does not change a thing. In order to create more REAL money, they need to print money AND give it an extra value. printing more money without doing that will decrease the overall value of money. I don't know if this is some kind of myth that is inbetween the American people or that the goverment is really that stupid to print foolishly money (which they did in the past and completely backfired in their face btw).
Nah, they don't pay for this stuff by printing money (that is the myth). They pay for it by selling government bonds and getting loans from other countries. If all they did was print money then they would never have to pay it back, and that would cause inflation. But they have to pay back bonds and loans, which is why this is debt.

[truefeel]

Nah, they don't pay for this stuff by printing money (that is the myth). They pay for it by selling government bonds and getting loans from other countries. If all they did was print money then they would never have to pay it back, and that would cause inflation. But they have to pay back bonds and loans, which is why this is debt.

Yeh, thx for confirming all of that. I was quite sure the problem was orientated around debt.

[berlin88]

The whole stimulus bill is a giant mistake.

1. How many jobs will it actually create? how many of them are temporary?

Answer: way less than than the 4 million jobs Obama said he will create, and almost all of them will be temporary.

2. Spending money to build a road or school may seem nice, but why do we need the federal government for that? Can't the states build their own schools and maintain roads? They did that all the time before the 1960's when there was no government funding for such a thing.

Secondly, if you spend stimulus money on "infustructure", then the people are only employed until the project is finished. Unless you want to rebuild the same road 5 times, they will be back on the unemployment lines once the job is finished.

3. The Dems are trying to make people dependent on the govenrment for their survival. If you depend on the Dems for your job and your social welfare programs, you are more likely to vote for them.

4. Stimulus packages create inflation/ jack up the debt.

You can't keep borrowing from other countries and printing endless ammounts of money, sooner or latter it will come back ot bite you in the $%@. The economists FDR hired when we removed the gold standard and enacted the New Deal said that very thing.

Had it not been for WW2, the New Deal would have failed and History would remember FDR as a failure not a hero.

5. We should only be spending as much money as the 50 states can provide in taxes. Spending more than you earn leads to trouble and bankruptcy.

What happens when China wants their money back? we can't afford to repay the loans, so they will demand compensation.


6. Whatever programs/ spending Obama's stimulus bill creates are not going to go away, they will in fact stick around. Every left socialists is getting in line to recieve handouts.

7. 90% of the American people won't even know whats in the bill, so enacting all these socialist policies will be rather easy.

8. We need not only tax cuts, but spending cuts.

All those jobs like manufacturing are outsources because government drives them out with high taxes, bad regulation and high wages.

9. Last but not least, 90% of the stimulus bill is spending/ funding that is illegal! Just read the preamble to the US Constitution

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

That statement outlines the role of the government, and the legit functions. Any and all spending mmust relate to one of those things, or else it is illegal.


EDIT: Obama signed the Children's health bill today, giving us another program we can't afford, and putting us one step closer to complete universal health care and socialism.

[Thumper]

black people would go ape (pun intended) if they found out obama was the biggest scam artist in US history... world history for that matter.

I don't even know how to ****ing respond to that. I can't even begin to fathom the intricacies of that statement. Truly a genius this world is not yet ready for.

yeah, i wasnt being super serious there. and yes there was a racist remark in my message. and the fact that i am not racist was the part that made it funny for me. and yes i am a genius, finally you and my mother agree on something. when will the two of you make up?

but anyhow, he sure the hell is a politician, and all politicians are basically scam artists... or all are hypocrites to some degree. but the reason i stated this to begin with is, i hope he does the right thing, then again, dont we all.

[nilloC]

yeah, i wasnt being super serious there. and yes there was a racist remark in my message. and the fact that i am not racist was the part that made it funny for me.

Hence the intricacies I cannot fathom.

and yes i am a genius, finally you and my mother agree on something. when will the two of you make up?

When she gets rid of her penis.



Anyways I'm reading through some of the amendments made to the bill through the Senate, interesting stuff if anyone is keeping up.

[Thumper]

When she gets rid of her penis.

she said that it wasnt hers, you didnt even notice the mailman was in the room? also, she said you didnt mind it for the first half hour :p





black people would go ape (pun intended)

yeah, i wasnt being super serious there. and yes there was a racist remark in my message. and the fact that i am not racist was the part that made it funny for me.
Hence the intricacies I cannot fathom.


the not-funny-in-reality joke was that i was comparing black people to monkeys. my black friend terrance got it and found it ammusing. maybe it comes through better in speech.

but yes i understand that it is offensive and not funny on its own, especially to those who dont know me.

------------------------------------------------------------

anyhow, i dont read amendments until it effects me, and then only when it pisses me off. Im a slightly above average american. (thats another joke, the above average part was pointed at the part where i mention i would actually bother to read something)

[berlin88]

Anyways I'm reading through some of the amendments made to the bill through the Senate, interesting stuff if anyone is keeping up.

The Senate version is just as long if not longer than the house version. Some copies I have seen were over 600 pages.

Creating a bill that is 600 pages long is a way to hide where the money is going, so people are less likely to object to the bill. How many people will actually read this entire bill? Even the politicians in Washington are not going to read it. Did Obama read all 600 pages of the House bill?

Its just Pelsoi and the far left writing the bill, then convincing the other Dems to vote for it. They proposed a 600 page bill and then without much debate voted on it less than a week later. There was almost no debate and no one was given ample time to read it.

This bill was a gift horse for all the left wing socilists/ radicals. All the Bush loyalists got some funding when 'W' was in office, so now Pelosi is steering billions towards the far left. Seems like politics as usual, no change here.

During the debates Obama promised to reject/ veto any bill that had "ear marks" and "pork barrel spending" in it, is he going to do that with the House and Senate bills? This stimulus bill will define his administration for the first 4 years. He won't get a second chance if the 900 billion isn't enough or fails to spur job/ economic growth. Trial and error is not an option unless he wants to risk a public backlash.

[Ace]

Its a stimilus package of mammoth tank size, of course its gonna be a few hundred pages. :D
Maybe Obamas people wanted to have the text explain things in detail or something :P

[GoMilton]

There was almost no debate and no one was given ample time to read it.

Any time someone would question something in it, all you would hear is "There is no time to debate, we must pass this now or bad things will happen"

[berlin88]

Any time someone would question something in it, all you would hear is "There is no time to debate, we must pass this now or bad things will happen"

That was said to try and get the bill passed while they had the votes. They didn't want to give the GOP time to disect the bill and expose the socialist aspects of the bill or all the left wing lobbyists who are going to benefit from the bill.

[starscream007]

The so-called stimulus is nothing but a joke and does NOTHING and I mean NOTHING to stimulate jobs. Its full of pork and nothing but pay outs to the groups that helped Obama get elected. In addition this will continue to make the economic crisis a hell of alot worse.

[berlin88]

The so-called stimulus is nothing but a joke and does NOTHING and I mean NOTHING to stimulate jobs. Its full of pork and nothing but pay outs to the groups that helped Obama get elected. In addition this will continue to make the economic crisis a hell of alot worse.

Yes, and it will also pass and be sent to President Obama for Approval.


Five things to keep in mind though:

1. If Obama fails to win GOP support, his party will pay the price unless this Stimulus bill works. Even if Gregg (a GOP member) becomes Commerce Secretary, he still needs GOP support if the Dems want to deflect blame should the Stimulus bill fail. Or at least try and make the bill look bi partisan.

2. Senator Gregg is up for nomination as Commerce Secretary, but that is a meaningless appointment. Commerce Secretary may seem like a nice position, but you can't do much without the support of Congress and the President. Pelosi isn't going to listen to Gregg, she's just going to do her own thing. Gregg is nothing more than a fallback. He is in the minority part and has little or no ability to challenge Pelosi, but is in a position where the Dems can blame him if something goes wrong.

Dems wants Gregg as Commerce secretary so they have a scapegoat when things go badly.

3. The Dems might blow their opportunity though. When Clinton took office in 1993 they went crazy and started advancing the far left agenda. Two years later they got thrown out of office when the GOP finally retook Congress after decades of being the minority party. Dems didn't seem to learn from previous failures, as they are now repeating the 1990's again.

Sure the Bush loyalists got their share of the funding when he was in office, but they didn't do it right away. The Bush loyalists were semi- smart, in that they secured their positions before they started sending money to the lobbyists.

4. The only reason the GOP lost in 2008 is because they couldn't communicate with the Voters and were acting more like Democrats then Conservative Republicans.

Abraham Lincoln, Theodore Roosevelt, Dwight Eisenhower and Ronald Reagan all won in landslides because they could communicate their message to the voters. They made it very clear how they were going to fix the problems, they didn't leave the voters guessing.

5. Lastly, the Republican Party is afraid Obama's ideas might work. If he gets the job done and is successful, the Dems might run the show for the next 12-16 years, leaving the GOP out of power. Had Bush been more successful, the GOP might have won in 2006 and 2008.

[WILL!!]

This sounds alot like what is happening her in Australia, good ole Kevin Rudd wants to spend 20 billion dollars (pales to your sums but is a lot for our country) in pay outs to the poor basically, and we don't need it quite yet if we need it at all. He just wants to act as though he is doing something. Good thing liberals are blocking it just a waste of money,

[Ace]

Its a difference randomly handing out money to people and actually setting up some sort of plan what to do with the money, I guess thats the difference between goverment spending and my own go shop something eatable at the food store thinking :p
I wonder if this thread will make it 5 pages :P

[GoMilton]

4. The only reason the GOP lost in 2008 is because they couldn't communicate with the Voters and were acting more like Democrats then Conservative Republicans.
5. Lastly, the Republican Party is afraid Obama's ideas might work.

The GOP did act like Democrats. They spent like crazy and they lost their seats in 06 because of it. Since 06 the Democrats have done such a stand up job :rolleyes: that we voted even more of them in.

Obama's ideas might actually work(maybe not all of them) but his original ideas are so much an afterthought in what the bill is now that there is no real "stimulus" anymore. Pelosi's idea is anything the government does is a stimulus.

[Jeffman12]

Okay, this is more in response to the OP than anything else, but having read the beginning and end, I think it's pretty much carrying the same flow.

I'm an American Independent, I've spent the past 19 years living with my over-the-top liberal parents and trying really f'ing hard not to punch a couple of my over-the-top gun-toting redneck friends out cold. There have been a few cases where I'm sure I would have, had they not been protected by this thing we call the internet, as nobody likes an internet tough guy.
Needless to say, I've experienced the LOWEST on both sides. The Neo-con tends to be the worst of both worlds. The few actual Republicans I've met are pretty decent and upstanding people.

The way I see it, the last 8 years was only the culmination of the past 24 (Or more if you want to count Reagan).

Here's the things I know;
1. Don't complain about taxes, you're pretty much spending the money on your own well being, and if you think paying for something is stupid because it doesn't apply to you, it probably will at some point.
2. I voted for the candidate less likely to send me off to die for beliefs I don't hold.
3. Bush is going to be getting the blame for crap going wrong until Obama has a chance to get something through. At least, that's the logical way to go about it, but Obama's already getting blame for Bush presidency mistakes. Even before he was inaugurated.
4. Don't count your chickens before they hatch, conversely, don't count your broken eggs before they break, cuz you'll just end up breaking them all to make a point. This means, stop saying the next 4 or 8 years are going to suck hard because there's a Democrat in office. Or maybe I should call you Miss Cleo.
5. Bush isn't Republican, he's Neo-Con. I found looking at it this way to be more fitting, and makes it less awkward when I'm hanging out with a real Republican.
6. McCain's pretty old, I didn't so much have a problem with him being president. Palin taking office, should he have died, would have been un-bearable.
7. I come here for gaming stuff, latest news on C&C, tips and tutorials on mapping (should I decide to go back into mapping). I don't really want to get embroiled in politics. It's a good way to keep the community alive, I respect that. Everyone's got an opinion and a right to it, unless you're on the O'Reilly Factor. But I'd recomend weeding out the intolerence of the forums with the, oh say, racism. I'm talking about that comment on the first page a few posts down. It's not befitting a legitimate discussion OR intelect.
8. I had to listen to some guy (at school, mind you) complain about taxes from the Clinton administration that payed for the free education he was getting. Of course he didn't have to pay those taxes, it was run-off from his parents' whining cuz they couldn't afford to send him to a private school anymore. This was in 2006, well into the Bush presidency. Don't be this guy.

Anyways, yeah, the economy's probably gonna get fixed, it'll probably take a while, and I'm sick of listening to people saying "THE ECONOMY IS SCREWED UP, WHY IS BARACK NOT FIXED ECONOMY YET?" cuz he's only been in office a couple weeks now. I'm not pointing any fingers at any posts I've read here (There probably are some on the pages I didn't read)
But hey, lets not blame him for stuff that was set rolling 1-8 years ago. Give credit/blame where it's due, I'm sure Obama'll give you something worth complaining about, I mean, nobody's perfect.

[truefeel]

FINALLY an American we has atleast an open mind and waits with claiming this and that until there are any results. Cheers man :).

[nilloC]

FINALLY an American we has atleast an open mind and waits with claiming this and that before there are any results. Cheers man :).

Hey hey, why don't I fit into that category? :p

[truefeel]

The dominican republic people are not relevant due everyone there is corrupted/and or high on drugs; how on earth can you give an objective opinion ? :p

Then again: corruption and drugs is a double negative, which mean... :eek: