No Internet? No C&C4.

[ItalianPenguin]

http://www.joystiq.com/2009/07/14/command-and-conquer-4-requires-constant-internet-connection/

This is going to be fun when you lose your connection in the middle of a mission.

[C4]

Just when you think EA can't go any worse, it shows you otherwise.:gnarly:
Once more, a stylish fail.

[Derek]

Nothing wrong with this at all.

[wthigon]

New DRM approach?

[ItalianPenguin]

Nothing wrong with this at all.
So when my internet is out for possibly 4 hours some winter and I can't play C&C4 that's okay?

New DRM approach?
I thought that was obvious.

[Derek]

So when my internet is out for possibly 4 hours some winter and I can't play C&C4 that's okay?
Yep. But why the hell would your internet be out for 4 hours anyways?

[Fenring]

Yep. But why the hell would your internet be out for 4 hours anyways?
Obviously you don't live where there are severe enough thunderstorms to knock out power for hours.

[C4]

Nothing wrong with this at all.
Nothing wrong?! And for those that don't have internet? And if i were to plan to play it in an offline PC? Why do i have to knee before them everytime i want to play?:hmm:

From my angle, this is wrong and very. What worries me is that if this stupid idea goes along and future eventually good games (since i don't expect much from this one) turn to follow it. These EA focus on DRMs could find a much better use in building the games and beta testing.
Sorry Derek, we are in opposite sides in this.

[truefeel]

Obviously you don't live where there are severe enough thunderstorms to knock out power for hours.


Not that I agree with Derek, but following that same theory you wil not be able to play any video game.

Still,the need of being online constantly is utterly retarded for people who buy the game only for the single player. I sincerely hope EA gets some or other lawsuit for breaking the privacy (as I see this a violation of it).

[Statalyzer]

Bad move.

[Derek]

Obviously you don't live where there are severe enough thunderstorms to knock out power for hours.
And you're going to play games on your PC without power...how? Hell, I have cable internet, I can lose my power but still have a cable signal (just nothing to use it with).

The only real issue is LAN parties that lack internet access.

[ein1017]

Well It is a good thing more and more people are getting the internet. I was going to bash on this idea but the more I think about it, the less of a problem it really is. I realized how many of my games I actually play online, so what would make C&C 4 different in that respect? Granted I am still uneasy over the fact that even to play single player I need the internet but so do some other games (I think America's Army is like that). I am more concerned about gameplay then over the fact that I need internet to play.

[truefeel]

But what will happen if your internet connection is momentarily lost? I think that will be a big issue if not calculated in!

And besides that, I find it a huge breach in my privacy, knowing that I am "constantly watched".

[ein1017]

Be similiar to say playing Quake live. As far as I know you can't play that offline and I am pretty sure they keep track of your stats.

[truefeel]

Reason enough for me never to play Quake. I would buy and play CNC4 though but only b/c it's one of my favourite genres.

And even if it was to count the amount of clicks I make, I would still find it a privacy breach. It is just not right.

[Derek]

Reason enough for me never to play Quake.
You're missing out on an awesome game.

And even if it was to count the amount of clicks I make, I would still find it a privacy breach. It is just not right.
So you refuse to play any game that keep a permanent record of your stats?:rolleyes:

[truefeel]

So you refuse to play any game that keep a permanent record of your stats?:rolleyes:On the manner EA does it, yes. If you are speaking of ladder records, thats a different story (b/c you want to go online and accept that the server keeps track of your stats).

Sounds crazy, I do know that. It's just a mather of personal principles.

[Fenring]

Not that I agree with Derek, but following that same theory you wil not be able to play any video game.
That's patently false. I have a laptop and handhelds. They work without my house having power so ha. :p

[truefeel]

But for how long Fenny, for how long. While there is no power, your battery is slowly, but very steady running dry, and all you can do is just sit and watch painfully how your battery is going down :p.

[Derek]

And playing games is only going to make it drain that much faster :p

[Statalyzer]

So nobody here ever has internet connection problems except when the power goes out? Or ever has taken a computer any place where there might not be a good connection?

[Coldwar05]

truely if people see this as a problem and are readign this stuff OFF the internet... why should you have a problem? Jeez ur using it now are you not?

[C4]

truely if people see this as a problem and are readign this stuff OFF the internet... why should you have a problem? Jeez ur using it now are you not?
I'm ponderating to explain to you the difference about playing games online and answering to a forum, but... i'll give you more time to figure it out for yourself.:hmm:

[ItalianPenguin]

Yep. But why the hell would your internet be out for 4 hours anyways?
Pennsylvania. Some people actually get real winters and storms where they live. I've easily had my cable out for 4 hours and still have power.
I won't even start with the internet connection at my university, it's pathetic.
So nobody here ever has internet connection problems except when the power goes out? Or ever has taken a computer any place where there might not be a good connection?
Some people have magical internet connections, haven't you heard? It never cuts out and travels anywhere they do.

[Statalyzer]

truely if people see this as a problem and are readign this stuff OFF the internet... why should you have a problem? Jeez ur using it now are you not?

Right, I'm on the internet right now reading this stuff, which means by simple logical extension I'll have a good working internet connection at all times in my life.

[Coldwar05]

what I dont get is on that link you posted is people saying that they will not buy because of this... seriously? Your not gonna buy because of that 1 little thing... on top of that your posting online on that web site.

[Derek]

Pennsylvania. Some people actually get real winters and storms where they live. I've easily had my cable out for 4 hours and still have power.
How the hell do you lose cable without losing power? Cable is carried underground, its almost impossible for weather to effect it. Losing cable is usually the result of someone's careless digging.

[Fenring]

How the hell do you lose cable without losing power? Cable is carried underground, its almost impossible for weather to effect it. Losing cable is usually the result of someone's careless digging.
The cable transponder can lose power and you don't. It's not always the cables that are the issue, or the user's house. I've had no Internet and power plenty of times.

So yeah, weather can affect your Internet connection. It's done mine in a few times.

on top of that your posting online on that web site.
Apparently you've never heard of dial up.

[ItalianPenguin]

How the hell do you lose cable without losing power? Cable is carried underground, its almost impossible for weather to effect it. Losing cable is usually the result of someone's careless digging.
Not when you live out of the city and suburbs.
The cable transponder can lose power and you don't. It's not always the cables that are the issue, or the user's house. I've had no Internet and power plenty of times.
So yeah, weather can affect your Internet connection. It's done mine in a few times.
We have a winner.

[Coldwar05]

Apparently you've never heard of dial up.


acually I have, the problem is I dont know anyone who even has it.

[Ivan_Moscavich]

Christ, where the hell have I been?

I go away for another few months and the world turns to ****.

So some sort of online CnC game only? I'll have to do some reading up, but this honestly isn't looking promising at the moment.

Also Derek, keep in mind any sort of technical problem could result in an internet malfunction, meaning if you had a hardware problem, you would not be able to play this game untill it was fixed, which could take any ammount of time based on the problem, if it could be fixed at all.

I can't honestly believe you of all people would respond how you have in this thread, seems like you're losing your edge.

guess i'm needed once more.


Will enter additional imput after finding out what the hell you guys have been up to while I was away.

CnC4, online only, MMORTS, founders leaving.... god what is the world coming to?

[Ivan_Moscavich]

OH, also, Derek apparently you've never heard of static charge. many routers will maintain a charge after a series of thhunderstorms, rendering the router buggy, and prone to malfunction during use for days after the storms untill the charge disipates.

This is just one of many possible ways internet can go out.

Coldwar05, one little thing? Ha, one LITTLE thing? Yes, surely paying money for a product you wish to use, and can not use it due to a fault not your own is surely a simple, little thing.
Seems like you need a lesson in proper buyer/seller product laws.

[Derek]

founders leaving
Louis Castle hasn't been involved in CNC for years.

OH, also, Derek apparently you've never heard of static charge. many routers will maintain a charge after a series of thhunderstorms, rendering the router buggy, and prone to malfunction during use for days after the storms untill the charge disipates.
Surge protector.

This is just one of many possible ways internet can go out.
I've had internet go out before, but its a rare occurrence. If you're internet is regularly going down, then you should get a new ISP. And if you can't live without CNC4 for the four hours its down once a year, well, you have more serious problems.

Coldwar05, one little thing? Ha, one LITTLE thing? Yes, surely paying money for a product you wish to use, and can not use it due to a fault not your own is surely a simple, little thing.
Seems like you need a lesson in proper buyer/seller product laws.
I can't play TF2 when my internet goes down, does that mean Valve has done something wrong? No.

[Coldwar05]

surely we should at least have paying jobs... otherwise if you dont then I suggest that you stop typing and look for a job.

[Statalyzer]

I can't play TF2 when my internet goes down, does that mean Valve has done something wrong? No.

Probably. I don't know TF2 very well though. I can think of a very small minority of games where not being able to play without an internet would be the best way to do it.

[KrasnyOktyabr]

surely we should at least have paying jobs... otherwise if you dont then I suggest that you stop typing and look for a job.

I've got a job.

My job takes me to ****ed up places for long periods of time. Places where they have computers I can use for half an hour to check my email, this however being the extent of my internet connection. Places that chances are you'll never see. Places like, oh I don't know, Afghanistan.

We don't have internet gaming here, but Red Alert 3 got passed around my unit like a cheap whore. Why? Because you don't need the damn internet to use it.

[truefeel]

Seems like RA3 is a hype within the American Military. I readed somewhere an article about it; can't seem to find it anymore though.

[Coldwar05]

But we all find our own time to play a game dont we? when we are not busy, and we are on our day off we either sleep, go out to see friends, run some arons, play games is the last thing, but with my memory of all thing I need to before I do play games is longer than I like sometimes, but I am sure am I gonna get a lot of hate messages after this post but- we have things we like do to last but for me thigns are different, I my job I work on x box 360's with I repair every now and then because our business here isnt booming yet. So I get free time so much and not to even mention I am in my summer break from school, so for the past few weeks I been playing games, I have so much time that I decided to host a tournament for a mod, which I still need players for, I been working on the tournament for the past 2 to 3 weeks on. SO as you cant see unluckly I dont have a hosue, a car, or marrige (if any of you do have this), I am just heavy gamer at the age of 16 with a girl friend, who works in his father's work shop when ever we get game consoles that I know how to fix.

Go ahead reply back saying I am lucky I am not, I have problems daily I cant fall asleep when I like to without meds and I cant stay focused without my meds for that.

[ArmoredBear]

I don't get the complaining about the need to be online. Anyone who has a computer capable of playing C&C4 is gonna have some sort of internet connection (probably a high speed one) and is probably not going to have any issues. I could see this affecting people who travel a lot or something similar, but I'm guessing that this won't affect a large majority of the C&C population. Maybe your internet goes out for a few hours during a storm and you can't play, but oh well, it's probably not the end of the world; go find something else to do. The online-only necessity could possibly help reduce cheating (depending on how much effort EA puts into stopping it) and it'll probably help prevent against some piracy. It sure won't stop all of it, but if they can put even a dent into it, then it's beneficial to EA.

Plus, with the way the unlocking system will work, it would be a lot easier to abuse the system while offline.

[Statalyzer]

I could see this affecting people who travel a lot or something similar, but I'm guessing that this won't affect a large majority of the C&C population.

Yeah, screw the rest of them!

could possibly help reduce cheating (depending on how much effort EA puts into stopping it)

Haha.

[Fenring]

If you're internet is regularly going down, then you should get a new ISP.
This stood out. Not everyone has a choice like in foreign nations or more rural towns like where I live. I have two choices - Comcast or dial up. You see which I would be forced to choose. So, "just getting a new ISP" is not a viable option in many cases.

surely we should at least have paying jobs... otherwise if you dont then I suggest that you stop typing and look for a job.
I suggest you shut the hell up. Simply having a paying job does not automagically mean you afford all of those nice luxuries mommy and daddy paid for when you mooched. You're 16. You don't know a tenth of what you think you do. Again, shut up.

Go ahead reply back saying I am lucky I am not, I have problems daily I cant fall asleep when I like to without meds and I cant stay focused without my meds for that.
No, you're still a lucky **** compared to a lot of people. Step down and shut up.

I don't get the complaining about the need to be online.
Of course you don't.

Anyone who has a computer capable of playing C&C4 is gonna have some sort of internet connection (probably a high speed one) and is probably not going to have any issues.
While this may be true to an extent, I know many people who have "gaming rigs" that are not connected permanently to the Internet.

The online-only necessity could possibly help reduce cheating (depending on how much effort EA puts into stopping it) and it'll probably help prevent against some piracy.
No and no.

[ArmoredBear]

Quote:
The online-only necessity could possibly help reduce cheating (depending on how much effort EA puts into stopping it) and it'll probably help prevent against some piracy.

No and no.
Quote:
could possibly help reduce cheating (depending on how much effort EA puts into stopping it)

Haha.
Yeah, OK, I get that the cheating argument isn't the strongest argument since it's EA. It's more of a hope than an expectation. Maybe it happens...I can still understand it being used to help prevent piracy rather than DRM. I'm guessing EA will actually try harder with preventing piracy than cheating since it costs them money.

Quote:
I could see this affecting people who travel a lot or something similar, but I'm guessing that this won't affect a large majority of the C&C population.

Yeah, screw the rest of them!There's always someone who will end up left behind when a new game comes out (ex those whose computer isn't good enough to run the game). I think this is another one of those situations. It's unfortunate but it's hard to please everyone when technology moves forward. I hope there's a way that the game can be played offline, even if it's just the single player campaign or something (I'll have to look again but I don't remember that being tracked, while I think skirmish and everything else is tracked and updated).

[pipinowns]

Yeah, OK, I get that the cheating argument isn't the strongest argument since it's EA. It's more of a hope than an expectation. Maybe it happens...I can still understand it being used to help prevent piracy rather than DRM. I'm guessing EA will actually try harder with preventing piracy than cheating since it costs them money.

Wait...This is them trying to prevent piracy? If I was to ever pirate a game, it would be this game. They are forcing me to only play it online, so I might as well get the game online too.

While I enjoy playing games online, I enjoy the simplicity of just purchasing a game at the store, installing it on the computer, and playing it offline without any lags or other problems. This is probably because I never had internet when I was younger, which is when I was a lot more into gaming. So the nostalgia plays a lot in this.

In the end, this does seem to be the unfortunate future of gaming. I'm seeing more and more games which require internet to play. I find this frustrating, as it seems like the simple concept of "casual gaming" can only be found in consoles now, which sucks, because I hate consoles. :\

I suppose this is the price of the advancement of technology.

Go ahead reply back saying I am lucky I am not, I have problems daily I cant fall asleep when I like to without meds and I cant stay focused without my meds for that.

I recommend joining a support forum, where you can cry a river and get replies from people who give a damn.

[Derek]

and playing it offline without any lags or other problems.
There wouldn't be any lag, you're not playing online, you're just connected to the internet.

[pipinowns]

There wouldn't be any lag, you're not playing online, you're just connected to the internet.

I realize that, I'm simply saying I miss the days where the system requirements for games didn't take hundreds of dollars to meet, and when gaming was generally much simpler.

[Derek]

Umm, meeting system requirements was actually a lot more expensive in the past. Back then the bare minimum PC would cost your over $1000, probably around $1500. These days for that price you can get a machine that will play all the newest games for several years to come.

[pipinowns]

Umm, meeting system requirements was actually a lot more expensive in the past. Back then the bare minimum PC would cost your over $1000, probably around $1500. These days for that price you can get a machine that will play all the newest games for several years to come.

Well, I had one PC for as long as I can remember which worked fine with Half Life, System Shock, Tiberian Sun, Red Alert, and all the other good old games. Then I got another one, which became too old in five years, and my newest computer I've only had for three, and Dawn of War 2 barely works on it.

[Derek]

Well, I had one PC for as long as I can remember which worked fine with Half Life, System Shock, Tiberian Sun, Red Alert, and all the other good old games. Then I got another one, which became too old in five years, and my newest computer I've only had for three, and Dawn of War 2 barely works on it.
The newest game you mentioned there is Tiberian Sun, which came out in 1999 and requires a minimum of Windows 95, therefore that computer played new games for five years. We can also work backwards: From 2009, minus three years, minus five years, giving 2001, plus whatever remainder. So no, that old computer of yours didn't play games for as long as you thought. Nostalgia is a wonderful thing, isn't it?

[pipinowns]

The newest game you mentioned there is Tiberian Sun, which came out in 1999 and requires a minimum of Windows 95, therefore that computer played new games for five years. We can also work backwards: From 2009, minus three years, minus five years, giving 2001, plus whatever remainder. So no, that old computer of yours didn't play games for as long as you thought. Nostalgia is a wonderful thing, isn't it?

And what have you accomplished from this?

[Derek]

Disproved your notion that you PCs have been growing outdated faster and faster.

[ArmoredBear]

Wait...This is them trying to prevent piracy? If I was to ever pirate a game, it would be this game. They are forcing me to only play it online, so I might as well get the game online too.

Maybe you're more likely to pirate it, but they're more likely to find ways to stop you from playing illegally if you have to be online every time you play.

And yeah, as Derek said, there won't be any lag if you're playing a game mode offline. If you read what was posted about it, it's basically there to collect data. It's not doing anything that requires a fast connection, and it won't affect your gameplay.

[KrasnyOktyabr]

But we all find our own time to play a game dont we? when we are not busy, and we are on our day off we either sleep, go out to see friends, run some arons, play games is the last thing, but with my memory of all thing I need to before I do play games is longer than I like sometimes, but I am sure am I gonna get a lot of hate messages after this post but- we have things we like do to last but for me thigns are different, I my job I work on x box 360's with I repair every now and then because our business here isnt booming yet. So I get free time so much and not to even mention I am in my summer break from school, so for the past few weeks I been playing games, I have so much time that I decided to host a tournament for a mod, which I still need players for, I been working on the tournament for the past 2 to 3 weeks on. SO as you cant see unluckly I dont have a hosue, a car, or marrige (if any of you do have this), I am just heavy gamer at the age of 16 with a girl friend, who works in his father's work shop when ever we get game consoles that I know how to fix.

Go ahead reply back saying I am lucky I am not, I have problems daily I cant fall asleep when I like to without meds and I cant stay focused without my meds for that.

I should hope that wasn't a reply to my post, if it was then you completely missed my point. The point I tried to make was that not everyone has unlimited access to the internet, not always due to circumstances within their own control, so why would EA deny this still existing consumer base the product they are trying to shill.

Provided that was not a reply to my post then I am lost, what the hell does anything you wrote about have to do with anything. You're just going off on some overly long, poorly written, tangent that makes me think either English is your second language- or that maybe you should nix the job and pay attention in school.

[Coldwar05]

I am going to ingore that, and just say if your on the internet now you can find your own time to play games.

[KrasnyOktyabr]

Ok. Let me break this down.

I am serving in Afghanistan as a mechanic with the United States Army, I have access to two computers. One is a Gateway laptop, my personal computer, it has no access to the internet. The other computer is this old Dell, located at what is known as an MWR, it has internet access. However it is only for accessing the internet, no gaming or any of that crap.

Do you see how this could pose a potential problem? I have time to play games, I do play them, however a game requiring an internet connection is a no-go for me, as it is for many others in many different situations.

I hope I made my point, I really don't think I could break it down any further without wanting to cause myself physical harm.

[Fenring]

I am going to ingore that, and just say if your on the internet now you can find your own time to play games.
You don't listen too well, do you?

[eLDiablo]

**** you EA. Stop ignoring the actual statistics of DRM/sales/and piracy.

[Daishi]

In my opinion, this is the single worst thing EA has come up with for our franchise since integrating unmoderated Gamespy servers into Generals Online.
The pirates are going to break this arbitrary limitation with an intercepting responder and EA will remove the feature completely to save face. That is, if they remember to patch it before the dev team's next project is rushed out.

I think this just goes to show what EA thinks of their paying customers. Though the real reason I'm not buying C&C4 is I don't play console RTS.

[truefeel]

Exactly my thoughts Daishi. I dearlly hope the selling results are so bad it takes EA down the pit.

[Derek]

I don't play console RTS.
Seriously, this is what everyone should be complaining about, but no, they're too caught up with some insignificant little thing that is going to negatively affect all of 1% of the community. :rolleyes:

[Fenring]

Seriously, this is what everyone should be complaining about, but no, they're too caught up with some insignificant little thing that is going to negatively affect all of 1% of the community. :rolleyes:
It's more than 1%. Don't be foolish.

[truefeel]

They will not get any money from me. I'm fed up with the policy EA is using. Really, apoc and co. can stick a **** in their arse.

[Ivan_Moscavich]

Derek: Louis Castle hasn't been involved in CNC for years.

Ivan: That doesn't change the fact he is a founder, Bill Gates isn't working in microsoft anymore, but that doesn't make him any less the founder now does it?



Derek: Surge protector.

Ivan: Perhaps you din't catch that, wireless router, static, a surge protector does NOT prevent static capture FROM THE ATMOSPHERE.
Yet another case of Derek opening his mouth before the gears have turned.
Edit: Turns out it was a antenne problem caused by outdated equipment no one was aware was outdated untill a day ago, it's fixed now on my end.



Derek: I've had internet go out before, but its a rare occurrence. If you're internet is regularly going down, then you should get a new ISP. And if you can't live without CNC4 for the four hours its down once a year, well, you have more serious problems.

Ivan: Yes because everyone can choose from fifty billion ISPs. Stop being so naive. Chances are I'll be playing CnC3 still, so it doesn't bother me as much.



Derek: I can't play TF2 when my internet goes down, does that mean Valve has done something wrong? No.

Ivan: Was Team Fortress Two single player offline beforehand? No, no it was not, don't make rediculous comparrisons, you're enough of an idiot already.

[Statalyzer]

Having just played TF2, I can say that yes it would be dumb if we couldn't play it over a LAN that didn't have internet access.

[Ivan_Moscavich]

Having just played TF2, I can say that yes it would be dumb if we couldn't play it over a LAN that didn't have internet access.


Well technicaly you wouldn't be playing anyways.

[David_belgae]

Well, if my internet connection drops out, it drops out. I will just have to make sure I save frequently.
And if I my internet dissapears? Guess I will have to go watch the ending on Youtube I guess. (On a friends computer mind you.)

As for the rest, I do not care. :)

[Statalyzer]

Well technicaly you wouldn't be playing anyways.

What?

[Frost Phantom]

meh, i got a constant high speed connection so none of this matters to me. so wat i cant play on my laptop when im out, not like cnc4 is the only game that exists, nor is gaming the only thing that can be done to procrastinate....

i get not everyone has a constant connection and this would prolly piss them off, but oh well, its just the same as not being able to play a game because you dont have a new enough graphics cards, its a requirement like any of the other requirements for a game.

besides they are only doing this because the majority of their customers obviously do have the ability to meet those requirements, hell my mate who now lives in the outback working on his parents farm has a 20mbs connection, sure its expensive as hell considering he's in the middle of nowhere, but if someone in an area as remote as that can get a high speed connection, it realy shouldnt be an issue for most people since the majority of gamers are in major cities/towns

as for storms and what not taking out the power/cable, its not exactly like that happens on an everyday basis, its just life, **** happens, build a bridge and get over it...that or find something else to do till the powers back...

[truefeel]

That or just don't buy the game b/c it is just not right you have to be constantly online, b/c it's not really ethical.

[Frost Phantom]

meh, to each their own, besides its not like as if there wont be cracked versions floating around on the net
ra3 had a similar system of requiring player to be online to play yet reloaded's cracked version of the game was out within hours of the ra3 release....
as for people wanting to have lan parties, you'd obviously have enough computers so just set one up as a fake server and have the rest connect to it.
and yes this is doable, its just the same logic private WoW servers...
PS all that does count as piracy, but hey lets not fool ourselves into thinking that EA's new DRM method is gonna do anythign to stop piracy.
its never worked for them in the past, and it'll prolly never work in the future....

[truefeel]

I predict Spore Pirating Situation Second Version, New and Improved!!

EA is very lucky they get their initial sales in the first weeks, when torrents and cracks are not floating around on big scale, else the sales would turn out to be a HUGE flop.

[Frost Phantom]

nah, they'll still have a massive amount of dedicated fans that would buy the game regardless of the availability of pirated versions.
me being one of them....most of the stuff on my pc is pirated but i've bought every CNC game released, and its just about the only set of legit games i got lol...

[Dracaveli]

hell my mate who now lives in the outback working on his parents farm has a 20mbs connection, sure its expensive as hell considering he's in the middle of nowhere, but if someone in an area as remote as that can get a high speed connection, it realy shouldnt be an issue for most people since the majority of gamers are in major cities/townsback...


things are not as simple as that, I stay in rural NC (Ayden)...moved here from wash d.c. ...Cable is a pipe dream, and Sat corps hold you by ransom

Our plight made NBC nightly news as residents complained that the $7.4 billion in Stimulus money available for broadband deployment has yet to be spent in rural NC.

here's a website detailing NC woes in high speed service http://www.publicknowledge.org/node/2522

e-NC authority, is an organization created eight years ago by the state legislature to track the availability of Internet services


Needless to say, this is yet another cautionary tale of the perils of broadband mapping, and shows that it’s now more likely than ever that the telephone and cable companies will prevail in their fight to control the information on which a national broadband plan is based. Oh, yes, and up to $350 million of taxpayer money will be totally wasted.
Last week, State Rep. Bill Faison (D), who chaired the state House Select Committee on High-Speed Internet Access in Rural Areas, sent around an invitation to the July 9 press briefing. Faison said that he and other members of his committee were “very pleased to tell you that our efforts to achieve a statewide map accurately and precisely depicting broadband availability have finally borne fruit.”
The fruit is not the product of the state agency, however. Faison used his announcement to criticize e-NC: “Until now, we have not had a map showing street address availability of broadband. e-NC has generated maps based on information disclosed by the providers which are based on the average number of customers with broadband access in a wire center. Unfortunately, information provided in this fashion does not allow you to see where broadband is and where it is not, it does not allow you to see the holes in the Swiss cheese, and depending on the area the hole may be larger than the cheese.”
Note the circular logic here. Faison and other members of his committee are criticizing e-NC for their maps, which were based on information supplied, or not, as it were, by the telecom industry. The state agency has been hampered by AT&T’s unwillingness to supply broadband data and its insistence on a very restrictive non-disclosure agreement for information the company did supply.



but I digress, I am stuck with a $2000 dollar plus PC and as it seems in the future no games to exploit it.

[Derek]

things are not as simple as that, I stay in rural NC (Ayden)...moved here from wash d.c. ...Cable is a pipe dream, and Sat corps hold you by ransom
You can't get cable there? Christ, we can get it on Topsail Island, and even Bean, who lives in rural Vermont, was eventually able to get broadband.

[Statalyzer]

Our plight made NBC nightly news as residents complained that the $7.4 billion in Stimulus money available for broadband deployment has yet to be spent in rural NC.

The government is taking 7,400,000,000 dollars of various people's money away to pay for somebody else to have faster internet? :rolleyes: :flame:

[Dracaveli]

Well yes and no, it is meant to put ppl back to work and keep others from losing theirs. Often then not the states play politics with the money and hoard the cash to shore up other budget losses, which NC has around half a billion or more for this year alone.

No one wants to run against a opponent with the mantra "He/She cut educational jobs and health services, but was able to bring in cable t.v."

keep in mind that's the total sum (7.4 bil) set aside for all 50 states not just NC.

Edit:
Now I'm not a lawyer, but I wonder if this is bordering on the antitrust issue, not so much price fixing but forcing gamers to have not only cable access but high speed internet, cable modem renting etc...

[Frost Phantom]

well seriously, when major game developer put new games on the market, they dont realy consider the difficulties outback gamers will have because they represent a portion of gamers so small, they can put it down as acceptable losses. they'd much rather sacrifice half a million sales to outback gamers through out the world for the ability to enforce DRMs on the majority of gamers who aren't all that good with computers and thus unable to get around it. sure most people here like me would be able to get around just about any DRM those companies can come up with, but the majority of gamers are casual and would have no choice but to pay for it if the DRM involved anything more than a keycode

and dont count on much more infrastructure spendings, america's largest lender, china, along with many other major world economies in europe have recently refused to lend america anymore money... and seeing as the current american national debt is at $11,613,619,930,873.67. oh and the saudis are being pressured to cease their oil for infrastructure trade with america, and the UN is withdrawing support for the american backed IMF system. and the US is under world pressure to set an example of reducing carbon emissions since they've recently been so keen to force that issue on all the developing nations. oh and the US nation health care systems have gone so bad kids under the age of 5 are now twice as likely to die from health complications than kids under the age of 5 in a third world country like czech.......and the list of problems goes on and on....

so with ALL those problems facing the US, i dont think faster internet connections is on the government's priority list at the moment....or gamer satisfaction for that matter...

[Ivan_Moscavich]

Me thinks OLD CnC fans fall within acceptable losses category to EA.

[Frost Phantom]

well its the very last chapter, no matter how badly they may screw it up, all the old CNC fans will still go and buy it just for the story even if they know they'll end up hating the gameplay....i know i would...

[Cylon Crusader]

well its the very last chapter, no matter how badly they may screw it up, all the old CNC fans will still go and buy it just for the story even if they know they'll end up hating the gameplay....i know i would...

I couldn't have said it better, as much as i dont like the way the game is turning out, i am still compelled to buy it, just to finish the storyline that started it all.

[Cylon Crusader]

things are not as simple as that, I stay in rural NC (Ayden)...moved here from wash d.c. ...Cable is a pipe dream, and Sat corps hold you by ransom

Our plight made NBC nightly news as residents complained that the $7.4 billion in Stimulus money available for broadband deployment has yet to be spent in rural NC.

here's a website detailing NC woes in high speed service http://www.publicknowledge.org/node/2522

e-NC authority, is an organization created eight years ago by the state legislature to track the availability of Internet services




but I digress, I am stuck with a $2000 dollar plus PC and as it seems in the future no games to exploit it.

I can take that PC off your hands if you dont need it.

[Statalyzer]

I couldn't have said it better, as much as i dont like the way the game is turning out, i am still compelled to buy it, just to finish the storyline that started it all.

That's why you don't like the way games are turning out.

[Ivan_Moscavich]

well its the very last chapter, no matter how badly they may screw it up, all the old CNC fans will still go and buy it just for the story even if they know they'll end up hating the gameplay....i know i would...

I couldn't have said it better, as much as i dont like the way the game is turning out, i am still compelled to buy it, just to finish the storyline that started it all.

Yep, basicly what I said in the other thread.

I am thruroughly hating this game more and more by the day, but that just gives me more motivation to get it done and overwith so i can get back to the good stuff.

[Ivan_Moscavich]

That's why you don't like the way games are turning out.

No, he doesn't like the way the game is turning out because he doesn't like the way the game is turning out, not because he's not expecting to like the game for how it's turning out, in addition to the way the game turns out being of a result he does not desire, this makes his statement of not liking the way the game is turning out into a simple case of distaste.

That is all.

[Statalyzer]

No, he doesn't like the way the game is turning out because he doesn't like the way the game is turning out, not because he's not expecting to like the game for how it's turning outFine but that's got nothing to do with what I said.

I said that he doesn't like the way things are turning out because he feels compelled to buy games even when he doesn't like the way they are turning out.

They don't care if you like or don't like the way the game turns out - you vote with your purchasing decisions and so if you buy it you vote: "I like it"

[LJGoose]

http://www.joystiq.com/2009/07/14/command-and-conquer-4-requires-constant-internet-connection/

This is going to be fun when you lose your connection in the middle of a mission.

Looks like I will be passing on this. GG EA

[Ivan_Moscavich]

Fine but that's got nothing to do with what I said.

I said that he doesn't like the way things are turning out because he feels compelled to buy games even when he doesn't like the way they are turning out.

They don't care if you like or don't like the way the game turns out - you vote with your purchasing decisions and so if you buy it you vote: "I like it"

You were supposed to remark on the redundancy of the statement.

But I don't agree with "You buy it you like it"

You pay bills, and you don't like paying bills do you?

[Derek]

You pay the electricity bill because you like electricity. You pay the water bill because you like water. You're not paying for the bill, you're paying for the service.

[truefeel]

Well, strictly seen water and electricity are basic human rights and should be freely available, but lets not go there.

I agree with that if you want something, you are willing to pay the bill for it. No questions about it.

Possible exception: Many people out there know they are gonna be disappointed with the game, but buy the game anyway b/c it is some sort of tradition to follow the storyline. So they don't really know what they want. I think they should draw the line for themselves and not buy the game; they'll end up probably finishing the campaigns and throwing the game in one or other dark corner in the room.

[Ivan_Moscavich]

You pay the electricity bill because you like electricity. You pay the water bill because you like water. You're not paying for the bill, you're paying for the service.

You pay for water because it's a human requirement, you pay for electricity because it is very difficult to live without that.

And you ARE paying the bill, no one payed the water to be water, you're just paying for the water to be in the pipes and in your house.

[Ivan_Moscavich]

Possible exception: Many people out there know they are gonna be disappointed with the game, but buy the game anyway b/c it is some sort of tradition to follow the storyline. So they don't really know what they want. I think they should draw the line for themselves and not buy the game; they'll end up probably finishing the campaigns and throwing the game in one or other dark corner in the room.

more than that, it's more something mental, to put your mind to rest, you've been with CnC for over 14 years, and now it's supposed to be done, one last hurrah, to put our minds at ease that the greatness that has become a nightmare is finaly over.
I feel like due to the time put into CnC, I owe it at least enough to finish it off. I'm sure I'm not alone on that.

[Derek]

You pay for water because it's a human requirement, you pay for electricity because it is very difficult to live without that.
Exactly, you would like to have those things.

And you ARE paying the bill, no one payed the water to be water, you're just paying for the water to be in the pipes and in your house.
You're not a very good reader, are you? No one said anything about "paying water to be water", that doesn't even make sense. You are suggesting that people pay for bills, as if they like a scrap of paper with some writing on it enough to pay for one every month. No, people pay for the service of having water piped to their house, the bill is just a statement of the charge. Thats like saying that you pay for a receipt, thats retarded, you pay for a product and get a receipt saying that you paid.

[truefeel]

Exactly, you would like to have those things.

Yes, but your example of electricity and water are very extreme ones. Of course you would like to have those things; without those you can't live. You need to classify those more as a need then something you just like to have.

You're not a very good reader, are you? No one said anything about "paying water to be water", that doesn't even make sense. You are suggesting that people pay for bills, as if they like a scrap of paper with some writing on it enough to pay for one every month. No, people pay for the service of having water piped to their house, the bill is just a statement of the charge. Thats like saying that you pay for a receipt, thats retarded, you pay for a product and get a receipt saying that you paid.

He is just saying you pay the bill to get he water, the bill meaning the right to use the water (if I interpreted it right). You are right, but I think this is just malcommunication between you 2.

more than that, it's more something mental, to put your mind to rest, you've been with CnC for over 14 years, and now it's supposed to be done, one last hurrah, to put our minds at ease that the greatness that has become a nightmare is finaly over.
I feel like due to the time put into CnC, I owe it at least enough to finish it off. I'm sure I'm not alone on that.

Which in other words is a bad move. I personally only buy games which atleast have a good reputation (and I'm not talking about the whole series here, just one game). CNC3, KW and RA3 were such games for example, but key elements like base building, harvesting wild growing tiberium and above all not such extreme methods of DRM, are not returning in CNC4, which is the reason why I will not buy the game unless the game becomes hugely popular after all, something I doubt highly. I will certainly not gonna feel more or less at ease b/c I didn't bought a game which I knew before buying I will not like.

[Derek]

Yes, but your example of electricity and water are very extreme ones. Of course you would like to have those things; without those you can't live. You need to classify those more as a need then something you just like to have.
You don't need electricity to live, millions of people around the world live without electricity, and you don't need indoor plumbing either, you can easily get water from numerous free sources outside your home. Both electricity and indoor plumbing are luxuries. They are so universally common in modern society that people can't imagine living without them, and yet most people did just that not one hundred years ago. So yes, you can stop paying your electricity and water bills, and stop receiving those services, and you'll be just fine. But you won't enjoy it much, which is why you choose to pay the bill every month.

[truefeel]

You don't need electricity to live, millions of people around the world live without electricity, and you don't need indoor plumbing either, you can easily get water from numerous free sources outside your home.Don't be so sure about that. You are so much more dependant on electricity then you are willing to accept. The people without electricity have generally grow up without and know how to survive without. About the "free sources": many of them contain lethal deseases. What you have running in your pipes at home has been more then 90% destiled. Don't take your "privilege" for granted.

Both electricity and indoor plumbing are luxuries. They are so universally common in modern society that people can't imagine living without them, and yet most people did just that not one hundred years ago. So yes, you can stop paying your electricity and water bills, and stop receiving those services, and you'll be just fine. But you won't enjoy it much, which is why you choose to pay the bill every month.We are not people from 100 years back. People don't know anymore how to life without electricity, including you and me. are you gonna tell me if you were dropped deep within the amazon without any electric means and without any drinkable water at hand, you would survive?

So in short, yes the human in the society we know is heavily dependable on those 2 aspects ans would not survive without.

[Cylon Crusader]

What i meant was:

I dont like the way the game is turning out, but i still want to buy the game to FINISH THE STORY THAT STARTED IT ALL.

Video games have that affect on people, take a look at halo 3, its a decent game, but i see people hating it all over, yet over 8 million people have bought the game, simply to finish the storyline that halo 1 started.

This is the same, except in CNC.

Lets cut this little mini-discussion off here and get back on topic with CNC 4.

[Derek]

Nope, this thread is going off topic.

Don't be so sure about that. You are so much more dependant on electricity then you are willing to accept. The people without electricity have generally grow up without and know how to survive without. About the "free sources": many of them contain lethal deseases. What you have running in your pipes at home has been more then 90% destiled. Don't take your "privilege" for granted.
Public water fountains don't contain lethal diseases. Neither do public bathrooms.

We are not people from 100 years back. People don't know anymore how to life without electricity, including you and me. are you gonna tell me if you were dropped deep within the amazon without any electric means and without any drinkable water at hand, you would survive?
So in just 100 years we have devolved to the point that, without water and electricity, we would helplessly die? Please. People do this **** all the time for fun. These are not human necessities, these are not human rights. These are luxuries, items we could do perfectly fine without, we just don't want to.

[truefeel]

Public water fountains don't contain lethal diseases. Neither do public bathrooms.

Paid by tax money. To clarify: I do mean absolutely not one form of paid water, so no water from the pipes at home, no water from the mall, no water in soda, no water indirectly paid with tax money, etc. So only one option left actually: water from nature, and if that water is not drinkable, you got a huge problem.


Please. People do this **** all the time for fun. These are not human necessities, these are not human rights. These are luxuries, items we could do perfectly fine without, we just don't want to.

Then you should read the international agreed human rights, b/c electricity and especially water are accepted as basic rights. Not in every country, but in the more welfaring countries they are. And the people who do that for fun know what they are doing; they know how to survive in such cases, b/c they learned how to. regular people don't.

So in just 100 years we have devolved to the point that, without water and electricity, we would helplessly die?

Unless your parents or other persons have teached you ways to survive without: certainly yes.

[Derek]

Paid by tax money. To clarify: I do mean absolutely not one form of paid water, so no water from the pipes at home, no water from the mall, no water in soda, no water indirectly paid with tax money, etc. So only one option left actually: water from nature, and if that water is not drinkable, you got a huge problem.
I never said that though. I said you can live without paying the water bill. You can.

Then you should read the international agreed human rights, b/c electricity and especially water are accepted as basic rights. Not in every country, but in the more welfaring countries they are. And the people who do that for fun know what they are doing; they know how to survive in such cases, b/c they learned how to. regular people don't.
Yeah, people have a nasty tendency to add luxuries to lists of "basic human rights". Its a sign that these people are afraid to live without them. Just because something in universally available, does not make it a right. Human rights are things like freedom of speech. In fact, all basic human rights are freedom from impositions. There is no human right to have anything given to you. There are rights to allow you to get things for yourself, but anything given to you is beyond a human right.

Unless your parents or other persons have teached you ways to survive without: certainly yes.
lol. I don't know about you, but most people aren't stupid. If they had to live without that stuff, they would. Would they be happier? No. Would they be healthier? No. Would they choose to? Hell no. But they would live. You severely overestimate the importance of electricity to basic survival.

[LJGoose]

You don't need electricity to live, millions of people around the world live without electricity, and you don't need indoor plumbing either, you can easily get water from numerous free sources outside your home. Both electricity and indoor plumbing are luxuries. They are so universally common in modern society that people can't imagine living without them, and yet most people did just that not one hundred years ago. So yes, you can stop paying your electricity and water bills, and stop receiving those services, and you'll be just fine. But you won't enjoy it much, which is why you choose to pay the bill every month.

I agree with electric. Electric is not necessary for survival. It makes survival a hell of alot easier but is not necessary. However indoor plumbing is filtered and alot healthier than bodies of water. In our age it is necessary to live. To many pathogens and bacterias are in the world now to not have clean fresh water.

[truefeel]

I never said that though. I said you can live without paying the water bill. You can.

You have to calculate in every possible way of paid water; you can't just say that option not, but that option is valid; else it would be too easy, don't you think?

Yeah, people have a nasty tendency to add luxuries to lists of "basic human rights". Its a sign that these people are afraid to live without them. Just because something in universally available, does not make it a right. Human rights are things like freedom of speech. In fact, all basic human rights are freedom from impositions. There is no human right to have anything given to you. There are rights to allow you to get things for yourself, but anything given to you is beyond a human right.

weirdo:wtf:. So you say you can survive without ANY form of water? What kind of creature are you?
I've readed somewhere in the declaration of the human rights humans have the right to forfill in their basic needs, I'm not so sure about electricity (although that is certainly also a right), but water was certainly one of them.

lol. I don't know about you, but most people aren't stupid. If they had to live without that stuff, they would. Would they be happier? No. Would they be healthier? No. Would they choose to? Hell no. But they would live. You severely overestimate the importance of electricity to basic survival.

Again my question: would you survive if you were dropped in the middle of Amazon forest without any electric appliances and without any bottled desease-free water? Would you know how to filter dirty water?

[Frost Phantom]

human rights only apply to those that can afford it or enforce it -_-
if you didnt live in a militarily advanced country, you'd understand the true reality of human nature, and it definitely isnt pretty.
human rights only exist because of democracy, which in turn only exists because two opposing factions are at a stalemate. if one side was able to annihilate the other side easily without any damages to themselves, then you'd end up with a dictatorship.
so no, there is no such thing as been entitled to water and electricity, they are merely privileges of living in a wealthy nation.

an example of what i mean is the fact that the declaration of human rights only apply to the countries which the UN can enforce it on. so far, its had no effect on equally powerful countries like china and north korea since no one is able to enforce it on those countries without sustaining massive losses themselves. and no clean water and electricity arent something every person in those countries have access to.

[truefeel]

human rights only apply to those that can afford it or enforce it -_-
if you didnt live in a militarily advanced country, you'd understand the true reality of human nature, and it definitely isnt pretty.
human rights only exist because of democracy, which in turn only exists because two opposing factions are at a stalemate. if one side was able to annihilate the other side easily without any damages to themselves, then you'd end up with a dictatorship.
so no, there is no such thing as been entitled to water and electricity, they are merely privileges of living in a wealthy nation.

an example of what i mean is the fact that the declaration of human rights only apply to the countries which the UN can enforce it on. so far, its had no effect on equally powerful countries like china and north korea since no one is able to enforce it on those countries without sustaining massive losses themselves. and no clean water and electricity arent something every person in those countries have access to.


Indeed, and thats why there needs to be done more effort to get the decleration through in such countries. hunderds of people are just dying every day b/c they have no acces to clean water.

I'll say it otherwise: in our society it is a right to have a minimum of water and electricity, but compared to other societies it is a privilege.

[Derek]

You have to calculate in every possible way of paid water; you can't just say that option not, but that option is valid; else it would be too easy, don't you think?
Exactly, its not hard at all. I have never once said you could live without water, I have said you could live without indoor plumbing. There is a reason I'm not changing it.

weirdo:wtf:. So you say you can survive without ANY form of water? What kind of creature are you?
Yeah, again, never said that. And btw, water is not a "basic human right", it is a "basic human necessity". Rights are things that every human deserves, but they won't die without. Necessities are things you need to survive.

I've readed somewhere in the declaration of the human rights humans have the right to forfill in their basic needs, I'm not so sure about electricity (although that is certainly also a right), but water was certainly one of them.
"Fulfill", ie, they have the right to get them for themselves, but this does not imply the right to be given them.

Again my question: would you survive if you were dropped in the middle of Amazon forest without any electric appliances and without any bottled desease-free water? Would you know how to filter dirty water?
Again, never said that. I said I and just about anyone in the world could survive without indoor plumbing and electricity. You're the one that keeps trying to expand this to some sort of extreme survival challenge.

[Statalyzer]

Whether a privilege or a necessity, you're paying for them b/c you want to have them.

There is no inherent concept of worth. Worth is whatever someone's willing to give up.

And when it comes to being a consumer, there is very little gray area - it's a binary proposition. You either buy the product or you don't. That's why most customer service is so poor - as long as they don't annoy you enough to make you not buy their product, nothing else matters.

[truefeel]

Again, never said that. I said I and just about anyone in the world could survive without indoor plumbing and electricity. You're the one that keeps trying to expand this to some sort of extreme survival challenge.

No, I did not. I might was not clear enough from the beginning though: I really did mean any form of paid water: that does mean no pipewater, but also not fountain water or whatever is directly or indirectly paid.

"Fulfill", ie, they have the right to get them for themselves, but this does not imply the right to be given them.

Thats just how you interprete it. I'm not gonna discuss this any further, as the discrepantion is too big here.

[Ivan_Moscavich]

He is just saying you pay the bill to get he water, the bill meaning the right to use the water (if I interpreted it right). You are right, but I think this is just malcommunication between you 2.



Which in other words is a bad move. quote]

>but I think this is just malcommunication between you 2.
It generaly is.

>Which in other words is a bad move.
I'm willing ot accept that.

[quote=Derek;406737]Nope, this thread is going off topic.


Public water fountains don't contain lethal diseases. Neither do public bathrooms.


So in just 100 years we have devolved to the point that, without water and electricity, we would helplessly die? Please. People do this **** all the time for fun. These are not human necessities, these are not human rights. These are luxuries, items we could do perfectly fine without, we just don't want to.

If you're suggesting we can just walk around without water, I'm afraid you would indeed die within a week, (assuming you didn't eat or drink anything with ammounts of water in it, because personaly, I've gone a week or more without drinking specificly water)

>Public water fountains don't contain lethal diseases. Neither do public bathrooms.
>Neither do public bathrooms.
Go to New Jersey and tell me that again when you get back...

[eLDiablo]

Go to New Jersey and tell me that again when you get back...

He obviously meant the water in the pipes you ass.

[Ivan_Moscavich]

He obviously meant the water in the pipes you ass.

It was obviously a joke, you're not from New Jersey are you?

[eLDiablo]

Born and raised actually. Probably longer than you spent there, considering your grasp of the English language.

[Derek]

No, I did not. I might was not clear enough from the beginning though: I really did mean any form of paid water: that does mean no pipewater, but also not fountain water or whatever is directly or indirectly paid.
But you didn't start this. Ivan did when he mentioned paying bills. The only water you pay a bill for is your indoor plumbing. You're trying to twist this into something far more extreme than it is, but you can't.

[Ivan_Moscavich]

But you didn't start this. Ivan did when he mentioned paying bills. The only water you pay a bill for is your indoor plumbing. You're trying to twist this into something far more extreme than it is, but you can't.

The bill is the medium between the service provider and the consumer, I stand by my point. You are paying THE bill, you're not directly paying the service provider person themself.

Also, through taxes you're essentialy paying for every ones water.

[Ivan_Moscavich]

Born and raised actually. Probably longer than you spent there, considering your grasp of the English language.

Like I said it was a joke, I'm sorry you apparently can't grasp humor.

I've actualy never been to New Jersey.


I'm sure it's been cleaned up in the past twenty years anyways, :D.

[eLDiablo]

So you know nothing about New Jersey and yet still make jokes about it. That's nice.

You tried to inject retarded completely untopical political humor into what was apparently a serious discussion about utilities.




for ****s sake, you want humor?

How many Isrealis does it take to change a light bulb?
5:
1 to unscrew the bulb
1 to haggle with a hardware store employee
3 to storm a palastinian home kill all of its occupants and steal the lightbulb


There's your humor.

[truefeel]

But you didn't start this. Ivan did when he mentioned paying bills. The only water you pay a bill for is your indoor plumbing. You're trying to twist this into something far more extreme than it is, but you can't.It evolved into something similar and no, I'm not trying to twist things, that just how things go at DGNF: you start on topic, someone talks about something related and before you know you got multiple discussions where nobody understands anythng from anybody. Also from what I know you came up with the water from fountains and public bathrooms; you expanded it. That's fine with me, but don't cry afterwarths I tried to make it more extreme and such.

Lets limit it back at running water at home and lets keep it at that: in more developped countries you have the right at a minimum of free running water, if I am right (you never know) that also includes the USA. It's not like that when you stop paying the bills they completely shut off the water. Same with the electricity: you'll end with just enough to run only a few appliances a time if you don't pay. Hell, in Belgium you even have the right on whats called a social home if you are in the situation of being completely broke and have no roof above your head. Why am I saying this: you do have rights on some particular aspects freely, you otherwise have to pay for, if you can't afford them. Running water and electricity are ones of those. Ok, not in every country you have those rights or they simply ignore those rights, but the countries we life in we certainly have those rights (and again, having the rights and being able to use those rights is a big difference mind you).

Besides, fresh clean water is not a luxury good. A car is, a computer is, heck soda that contains water is, but water on its own is completely not a luxury good.

Lets get back on topic now, shall we. If you like to answer, then be free to send a PM. Getting off topic is ok, but talking about water in a cnc4 topic goes a bit far :p.

@Ivan: ignore ELTroll, he's trying to pull off his signature mark again.

[eLDiablo]

No I'm not just trolling here, people constantly try to claim an unfunny joke as funny. My joke had far more relevance to the topic of fundamental human rights than Ivan's did.

[Derek]

It evolved into something similar and no, I'm not trying to twist things, that just how things go at DGNF: you start on topic, someone talks about something related and before you know you got multiple discussions where nobody understands anythng from anybody. Also from what I know you came up with the water from fountains and public bathrooms; you expanded it. That's fine with me, but don't cry afterwarths I tried to make it more extreme and such.
I brought those things up as sources of clean water when you don't have water in your home.

Lets limit it back at running water at home and lets keep it at that: in more developped countries you have the right at a minimum of free running water, if I am right (you never know) that also includes the USA. It's not like that when you stop paying the bills they completely shut off the water. Same with the electricity: you'll end with just enough to run only a few appliances a time if you don't pay. Hell, in Belgium you even have the right on whats called a social home if you are in the situation of being completely broke and have no roof above your head. Why am I saying this: you do have rights on some particular aspects freely, you otherwise have to pay for, if you can't afford them. Running water and electricity are ones of those. Ok, not in every country you have those rights or they simply ignore those rights, but the countries we life in we certainly have those rights (and again, having the rights and being able to use those rights is a big difference mind you).
Those things are not fundamental rights. They are things freely given to everyone by your country, but they are not human rights. And in the US, if you stop paying your water or electricity bills, they will cut service (though in some parts of the country I think water might be paid as a mandatory tax, instead of a service charge).

[truefeel]

No I'm not just trolling here, people constantly try to claim an unfunny joke as funny. My joke had far more relevance to the topic of fundamental human rights than Ivan's did.


yeh, yeh, you are right. Happy birthday, eL.

[Dracaveli]

Quick google search: UN rejects water as basic human right

March 25, 2008

a special resolution proposed by Germany and Spain at the UN human rights council was stripped of references that recognized access to water as a human right. The countries also chose to scrap the idea of creating an international watchdog to investigate the issue.

I don't know much about Jersey save for my cousin who stayed there (only visited him once) near east orange...but the water in Magnolia, De was polluted like hell, it was advised to only shower with it and cook...bottle water was recommended for consumption. probably due to it being by Dover airbase, seems like bases have trouble keeping the surrounding area free of pollutants. Since I moved to NC, local news been reporting on contaminated water at the Marine corps base Camp Lejeune.

[truefeel]

Ok, point taken then. However it is still a right in multiple countries.

[Frost Phantom]

not rly. if it's a basic right, then you wont be paying for it... however i'll agree that it is a neccessity which means just about everyone pays for it anyways. the only right you have is the right as a consumer to get what you pay for ie you pay for clean water, thus you'd expect clean water.

and as for whether there needs to be more done about improving human rights in developing countries, well as proven by the UN IMF scheme, america loves to have dibs in everything, sure they supply 40% of the money that goes towards these developing nations, but that moneys comes with many strings attached. for militarily independant nations like china and NK, thats just not gonna happen. and its quite impossible to force it on them since china has a ready to fire nuclear arsenal, and NK has hundreds of thousands of ballistic missles aimed at south korea and any military advancement against them will result in a guaranteed death of millions of civilians.

[truefeel]

not rly. if it's a basic right, then you wont be paying for it... however i'll agree that it is a neccessity which means just about everyone pays for it anyways. the only right you have is the right as a consumer to get what you pay for ie you pay for clean water, thus you'd expect clean water.

You don't have to pay for it if it is obvious you just cant pay the bills, but you will have only small quantities of it, just enough for your basic needs. You have the right at a minimum of fresh running water, if you can afford it you have to pay for it.

[Frost Phantom]

okay, dont pay your next water bill and see if the water company turns off your supply or just diminishes it ....

companies dont care if a single person dies of dehydration, its just good business to not care about your customers. especially if its quite obvious the services you're providing is essential.

[truefeel]

okay, dont pay your next water bill and see if the water company turns off your supply or just diminishes it ....Dont need to; it never happened to me, but I'm very sure if I would not pay up, I still will have running water, but in smaller quantities. I do know the laws in my country, my friend ;).

companies dont care if a single person dies of dehydration, its just good business to not care about your customers. especially if its quite obvious the services you're providing is essential.The water company here belongs to do the goverment and that makes all the difference here. A few years back that was the same with the electricity company, but that one got privatised, but they still are bound by laws to give a minimum of electricity if you can't pay up.

Again I have to state this is in only SOME countries (including mine).

[WNxAnthrax]

Big turn off is C&C 4 is having to connect to the internet to play the game. Seriously? What the hell is the point of having to connect to the internet to play the OFFLINE version of the game???? This is the reason why i stopped buying C&C After Kane's Wrath and simply pirated the rest. I give C&C 4 a week after it launches before the piracy company cracks it.

If they wanted DRM, they should just you STEAM. Hard as hell to crack a lot of those games. I bought Dawn of War 2 off steam recently cause pirating it was more work than it was worth. yet another C&C i wont buy. (it can be doable but theirs of other crap u gotta do)

[Frost Phantom]

Dont need to; it never happened to me, but I'm very sure if I would not pay up, I still will have running water, but in smaller quantities. I do know the laws in my country, my friend ;).

The water company here belongs to do the goverment and that makes all the difference here. A few years back that was the same with the electricity company, but that one got privatised, but they still are bound by laws to give a minimum of electricity if you can't pay up.

Again I have to state this is in only SOME countries (including mine).

ironically, laws like that are just about the definition of communism!! lol the exact opposite of western right wing values of capitalism!
and it has a huge flaw, the same one that eventually led to to fall of communism in russia and the end of the cold war, when people realise they get these essential needs regardless of whether they pay or not, they will just stop paying, thus screwing over the system.
i mean sure they'll let you keep having water/power if you miss one or two bills, but if you just choose to outright refuse to pay the bills indefinitely, they will eventually cut you off regardless of your needs. that i can be sure off since for every law there is a loophole. that is, assuming you're in a western nation other than sweden.

[Statalyzer]

If they wanted DRM, they should just you STEAM. Hard as hell to crack a lot of those games.

I'm glad C&C doesn't work like that and you just start up the damn game if you want to play it.

[truefeel]

ironically, laws like that are just about the definition of communism!! lol the exact opposite of western right wing values of capitalism!No, it is socialism. Big difference.

and it has a huge flaw, the same one that eventually led to to fall of communism in russia and the end of the cold war, when people realise they get these essential needs regardless of whether they pay or not, they will just stop paying, thus screwing over the system.Except that Belgium is not a communistic land. It has a free market economy, but goverment interference. And oh yeah, you will keep getting water for free when you don't pay up, but you will get a lawsuit on your ass and if you can afford it after all, they will make you pay! This is not some or other utopian project; the goverment has laid down rules and control system to avoid abuse.

i mean sure they'll let you keep having water/power if you miss one or two bills, but if you just choose to outright refuse to pay the bills indefinitely, they will eventually cut you off regardless of your needs. that i can be sure off since for every law there is a loophole. that is, assuming you're in a western nation other than sweden.No, you get transferred to a social plan. You are forced to keep paying, but if you are not able to do that they can't cut off water/electricity.

This is not America, my friend (not pointing that you are from America, but you obviously follow American Ideals). Here in Belgium we don't have to ask what we can do for the goverment, but the goverment asks what it can do for us. And although it is not a perfect plan, I do find it a way better method of living. You sacrifice maybe a bit of free life and free economy, but you still have freedom at such a degree you barely notice the difference, yet we have a much smaller gap between poor and rich and it does partly make up for the failures of pure capitalism.

(Besides, there are some whacky laws also in Belgium: If you escape from prison you cannot be punished for the breaking out, as it is "an act of freedom".)

[Frost Phantom]

socialism is the extreme left wing version of communism, the difference is, in socialism, you get appointed a leader whereas in communism, the leader is chosen from a select group through a vote by that group.
oh and socialism involves even more death penalties.

and i thought you were american! :P if you're belgian then its understandable you have better social plans, but thats besides the point. what i was saying when i told you to not pay your bill meant just outright refusing to pay, ie dont pay it even if you can afford it, then ignore any/all lawsuits being filed against you and if they send cops to arrest you, fight them off with lethal force if necessary.

and no im not from america, but here in australia, we have fairly similar social security systems, which is prolly why our economy crashed as well....5% of the damn population refuses work and get still get paid (rather well) through social security checks :S

both pure capitalisma and pure socialism are theorectically ideal systems, and both get ruined by a single characteristic, human greed. kinda funny how all that can be solved if we just let an AI program run everything :P

[truefeel]

Depends if you take the terms literally or in function of history. Communism in theory means no leader actually, but I'll assume you look at it how it turned out. However, Socialism in Europe has almost nothing to do with communism; it's more flattening out the alcove inbetween poor and rich, but on a democratic and actually capitalistic manner. Socialism as we know it in Europe is actually far less deathly then Capitalism in America.

[quote]and i thought you were american! :P if you're belgian then its understandable you have better social plans, but thats besides the point. what i was saying when i told you to not pay your bill meant just outright refusing to pay, ie dont pay it even if you can afford it, then ignore any/all lawsuits being filed against you and if they send cops to arrest you, fight them off with lethal force if necessary. Yeh, I'm Belgian, you got problems with that :p?

And it's a bit different then that. They don't explicitly tell you not to pay your bills. It's very hard to make abuse of it. And I don't you are gonna use lethal force when 10 policemen are knocking at ya door :p.

and no im not from america, but here in australia, we have fairly similar social security systems, which is prolly why our economy crashed as well....5% of the damn population refuses work and get still get paid (rather well) through social security checks :SEconomy has crashed everywhere. You can't just assume it was at the cause of such systems! it is a worldwide problem and lands with actually little to none social security as China are alse having problems handling it. If you think your social systems fails, then there are probably not enough control systems stopping abusement. Simple is that.

both pure capitalisma and pure socialism are theorectically ideal systems, and both get ruined by a single characteristic, human greed. kinda funny how all that can be solved if we just let an AI program run everything :P

No; I do find freedom to a degree very, very important. I would agree with letting the current regulations be controlled by an AI, but not my whole life. Therefore I bound to a society system controlled by humans, even if it is not the best thing to do.

[Statalyzer]

If you think your social systems fails, then there are probably not enough control systems stopping abusement.

And that - stopping injustice and abuse - is the proper function of government. Not stopping inconvenience. Not micromanaging anything that isn't the way they like it.

[truefeel]

And that - stopping injustice and abuse - is the proper function of government. Not stopping inconvenience. Not micromanaging anything that isn't the way they like it.

There lies a small problem in your statement, Statalyzer: I agree with you completely with you that the goverment has to back off sometimes, but what way should they micromanage then? The way important businessmen want? The way a rockstar wants it? The way your neighbour wants?

Thats the issue: there is no way to satisfy everone. You are either helping the rich or helping the poor, but you can't help both.

[Derek]

Thats the issue: there is no way to satisfy everone. You are either helping the rich or helping the poor, but you can't help both.
And this is where you make your key mistake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma). You can help both, by promoting the general economic welfare, which is done best by laying off of interference.

[Statalyzer]

I agree with you completely with you that the goverment has to back off sometimes, but what way should they micromanage then?

They should micromanage in no way. Their job is to prevent "cheating", so to speak. It's like the job of a referee in a sporting event - they are to make the game fair for everyone and have it be a "level playing field", not to try and tell one team or the other how to run their offense.

You are either helping the rich or helping the poor, but you can't help both.

That is not true. Sometimes you can help both by helping neither, at least not as a bloc. People don't deserve help just for "being poor" so you can appear compassionate, or for "being rich" so you can encourage investment.

Now, of course are good ways to have compassion for the oppressed and to encourage investment, but neither involves invoking special privileges for someone based on social status.

And those of us in the West have a VERY screwed-up definition of poor anyway. We think somebody with a car and big-screen TV and an internet connection is poor b/c they can't afford to go out to eat very often and b/c the parents have to share one car.

[truefeel]

They should micromanage in no way. Their job is to prevent "cheating", so to speak. It's like the job of a referee in a sporting event - they are to make the game fair for everyone and have it be a "level playing field", not to try and tell one team or the other how to run their offense.

Well, thats more personal believe I think. A goverment not that influent has its advantages, but also disadvantages. The thing is the goverment over tries to make equal teams to make things that way "fair".

That is not true. Sometimes you can help both by helping neither, at least not as a bloc. People don't deserve help just for "being poor" so you can appear compassionate, or for "being rich" so you can encourage investment.

Doing nothing means in big terms rich getting richer and poor getting poorer. Again this is personal believe and I do find that rich and poor should get the same chances, not that the rich have to work completely for the poor, just to contribute to a better world.

Now, of course are good ways to have compassion for the oppressed and to encourage investment, but neither involves invoking special privileges for someone based on social status.

Counting on human compassion? Dude, that's pretty optimistic, but yo are not going to get far with compassion, as there is not that much compassion.

And those of us in the West have a VERY screwed-up definition of poor anyway. We think somebody with a car and big-screen TV and an internet connection is poor b/c they can't afford to go out to eat very often and b/c the parents have to share one car.

Nah, I mean like being poor and living on the streets.

[Derek]

Doing nothing means in big terms rich getting richer and poor getting poorer.
No, it doesn't.

[WNxAnthrax]

I'm glad C&C doesn't work like that and you just start up the damn game if you want to play it.


Well you can play offline modes offline in STEAM. You go to Offline Mode and it restarts steam into offline mode until you go back and switch it to Online mode.

[Statalyzer]

I know that.

The thing is the goverment over tries to make equal teams to make things that way "fair".

That isn't fair though. Forcing teams to be evenly matched is unfair, unless they became unevenly matched through something fraudulent or unjust.

Counting on human compassion? Dude, that's pretty optimistic, but yo are not going to get far with compassion, as there is not that much compassion.

Context, dude... Connect that sentence of my that you quoted with the sentence I said right before it.

Nah, I mean like being poor and living on the streets.

You've been talking about the rich and poor this whole time as if you mean by poor "people with below average income"

[truefeel]

No, it doesn't.

Look at places like Africa. Little to no influence from the goverment and you got a handfull riches and millions of poor people.

And this is where you make your key mistake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma). You can help both, by promoting the general economic welfare, which is done best by laying off of interference.Wasn't you one of those guys that wants a goverment that does not interfere with the economy? :p

And what would economic welfare help? The largest part of the money flows to the rich. Of course more poor people would be able to get a job, but that would only be temporarily until the next crisis.

That isn't fair though. Forcing teams to be evenly matched is unfair, unless they became unevenly matched through something fraudulent or unjust.

That would be the way you look at it. If you let 2 equally strong men fight to the death and one gets a machine gun (rich guy) and the other one gets a potato knife (poor guy), would you call that fair? If you want a fair fight, then give both equal oppertunities and not the rich a headstart. You don't play rugby either by forcing one team to give the other one 10 seconds headstart, b/c that is what rich people and especially rich kids are getting now, on other words: it never is a fair fight b/c the rich already has an in my eyes unfair advantage in my eyes already.

Context, dude... Connect that sentence of my that you quoted with the sentence I said right before it.You missed my point last time, partly responsible by me by using rather the wrong words. When I ment "helping" I did ment helping as a society and by inbending rules, some sort of "forced" help. Forced b/c most people would not give a thing about poor people.

You've been talking about the rich and poor this whole time as if you mean by poor "people with below average income"Yeh ok, I excegerated there. In the discussion with Derek I ment people who can't get meet ends, but have a home, atleast very temporarily. Same here. I also never talked about "average income". What I would mean is an income to get ends meet good enough to have a proper life, not a hugely luxury life, but a life in which you can forfill your basic needs.

Can we get on topic back now btw? If you want to continue to discuss, then plz PM.

[Statalyzer]

Sorry, but you don't get a free last word by making all your points publicly and then saying "The end".

Look at places like Africa. Little to no influence from the goverment and you got a handfull riches and millions of poor people.

That is a huge misdiagnosis of the situation. The problem is not a lack of government interference in the form of forced redistribution of wealth. The problem is a lack of government interference in it's proper realm - quashing injustice, enforcing safety, protecting people from robbery, theft, fraud, backstabbing in contracts. And the problem is too much dictatorial government interference - people generally don't have the rights to their own life, liberty, and property. For example, they may have land and a home, but no Title to protect it from seizure. They may have a vote, but the elected government could fall to a coup at any moment. And another huge problem is TONS of wars across the continent which tend to destroy residences and agricultural and infrastructure alike.

The national governments taxing the rich more and inventing social security and food stamps wouldn't help a bit. Food stamps don't help you if you don't have food to buy them with and couldn't keep it safe from rebel marauders even if you did! Taxes mean little when General Wrathful can pull his army up to the capital, take over the government, and raid the treasury for his personal gain.

The largest part of the money flows to the rich. Of course more poor people would be able to get a job, but that would only be temporarily until the next crisis.

Not only would poor people be able to get more jobs, but they'd be able to keep more of their own money! Right now the guy who gets an $8/hour job as a cashier is only really making $6.80/hour because of medicare and social security. SS is a ripoff that both Socialists and Libertarians alike should be railing against - it takes from the poor and gives to the rich! In the USA at least (and probably most of the West), if you divide the population by decades of ages (20-29 year olds, 30-39 year olds, etc), every single age group is richer on average than all younger age groups and poorer on average than all older age groups.

Oddly enough, many of the younger generation are in better long-term financial shape than the older generation, and it has nothing to do with the higher percentage of university degrees. It has to do with credit-card debt. A large number of those who've had more than sufficient income to provide an average or better standard of living for their household have spent FAR above their means and maxed out credit cards with irresponsible behavior. And our government REWARDS those people by giving them bonus retirement money taken from people who on average earn decidedly less money than they do.

If you want a fair fight, then give both equal oppertunities and not the rich a headstart.

That is a very funny definition of "give". You seem to think that "giving" means "failing to take away".

If one team is bigger and stronger and faster than the other, is the referee "giving" that team an advantage by refusing to actively intervene to take away the advantage? Current government policies are equivalent to forcing the best team in the league to trade some of their best players away to the worst team.

In your example, the fight may not be an EVEN MATCH, but that doesn't mean anything is INJUST about the situation. If I bring a knife to a fight and when I show up I realize that someone else has a gun, nothing is "unfair".

Now, if there was such a fight, you as a bystander might need to intervene - but such intervention has nothing at all to do with the weapons disparity. It should be based ONLY on who is right and who is wrong. For example, if the guy with the gun is in his own house protecting his child from being kidnapped by the guy with the knife, you should intervene on the side of the guy with the gun and help make sure the other man doesn't escape and get away.

And there's also the issue of why the one guy has a gun and the other guy has a knife. Maybe he has a gun because he knows how to use it and chose to spend his own time training while the other guy didn't. Or maybe he stole it - most rich people did not steal, or inherit their money, FWIW. But those who do deserve tougher penalties.

For example, one thing government should do to make things fair is punish all theft equally. A poor guy who robs a financial institution in person and a rich guy who joins the board of directors and rips people off secretly are currently treated much differently and "white-collar" crime often results in slaps on the wrist relative to "blue-collar" crime. And since protecting against crime is an obviously natural role of governments, this is a big failing in my opinion.

Forced b/c most people would not give a thing about poor people.And it's governments job to force people to contribute to what they happen to think is a worthy cause? Wish I could do that. Start up a worthy charity and make you donate money to my charity, and if you fail to do this, I'll come to your house and drag you away in cuffs and if you fail to passively let me do this, I'll shoot you.

Oddly enough, those people who "would not give a thing" include the very politicians who vote for these bloated social welfare programs and the people who vote for them. If you want to help out "the poor", any idiot can be generous with money and assets that don't even belong to him - if they put their own money where their mouth is, then I'll respect their opinion. Otherwise it's pure hypocrisy.

What I would mean is an income to get ends meet good enough to have a proper life, not a hugely luxury life, but a life in which you can forfill your basic needs.

You just described most people who are getting massive government assistance in the USA and Western Europe. Liberal social programs (and more and more these days, conservative ones as well) provide services that most people who are receiving them could have provided themselves.

[truefeel]

Sorry, but you don't get a free last word by making all your points publicly and then saying "The end".Check PM ;). It just got way out of hand and I just like to stop it here. If you really want that hard to continue in public, then post your answer back here. if not then stop acting so proudly. I feel your post was just you willing the last word yourself.
SOMEONE had to get this discussion away from this topic. You were not going to do it, so I did that. You have my answer with PM. Again, if you are so eager to continue this in public, then do so, although it would be far wiser to stop messing up this topic and essentially handing it over to the spam dump.

[Derek]

Hey Stat, if he sent you a PM continuing this discussion, could you post it here? I'ld like to keep following this discussion.

[Cylon Crusader]

As harrowing as this discussion is, I feel that we ALL need to get back to the topic.

If you guys want to continue this, i suggest going forward with PMs and/or pagers.

Please I implore you all, bring out the best of the CNC community and continue this discussion in private.

[Frost Phantom]

but the topic is dead. everyone has agreed that making C&C4 internet only for DRM is a stupid idea.

as for the issue of the rich getting richer, and the poor getting poorer. you also gotta remember that those people come from two ends of society. and those with an education will just about always come out on top.
not that im saying poor people are stupid or anything, but those from the lower end of society tend to value education less. eg the suburbs where i grew up, most kids would not give a damn about school cuz their parents didnt have a high level of education and still get along in life fine on $40-50k a year.
when i started high school and moved to a more classy area in the city, most of the kids there have high ambitions and some were ruthless in their pursuit of those goals.
obviously, its the kids with ambitions that are gonna get further in life. and the more ruthless they are, the further they will get.

no i dont believe that society should help the poor with government hands outs and everything. our government provides a free education to any citizen that wants it and they pay for all university costs for those that get accepted into courses. so its merely up to those people to help themselves. if they choose not to, why should the rest of society be forced to support them? as i said in an earlier post, there is something like 4-5% of the population that outright refuses to work and live off government hand outs all their life, then constantly complain about how the world is unfair and they have to live on bare minimums, whilst others are wasting money on luxury goods like giant TVs, sports cars etc.

and this apply to alot of things, not just education. even startup businesses get massive grants and tax exemptions from the government, but no one from the lower end of society ever seize those opportunities.

everyone wants what they dont have, its just a matter of whether you have the balls and abilities to take it. and funnily enough, being smart goes alot further than being a brute. this applies to both the legit side of the law and the not so legit side.

[truefeel]

Hey Stat, if he sent you a PM continuing this discussion, could you post it here? I'ld like to keep following this discussion.


Or just ask him to PM through? You know what, I'll send the PM I sended to Stat to you.

It would be better though if we could get on msn and discuss it that way.

but the topic is dead. everyone has agreed that making C&C4 internet only for DRM is a stupid idea. It is still really strange: talking about politics in a topic completely not related to. You got to understand that somewhere the lie has to be drawn and I like to continue this discussion where it can be fitting, which is not here. So check your PM.

[Statalyzer]

not that im saying poor people are stupid or anything, but those from the lower end of society tend to value education less. eg the suburbs where i grew up, most kids would not give a damn about school cuz their parents didnt have a high level of education and still get along in life fine on $40-50k a year.

There's nothing wrong with not having a high level of education and getting along fine at 40k-50k a year.

We've actually made education *too* important nowadays b/c it's an expensive arms race for anyone who wants to go past high school, but yet a lot of jobs won't even consider you without a college degree, some for good reason, but many are things you could actually do just fine without one.

It is still really strange: talking about politics in a topic completely not related to.

He's got a point. My issue was that he didn't say "We're off topic by being political, let's stop", but he made a bunch of off-topic political points first and then said "Ok now that I got my say in, let's everybody stop."

[truefeel]

He's got a point. My issue was that he didn't say "We're off topic by being political, let's stop", but he made a bunch of off-topic political points first and then said "Ok now that I got my say in, let's everybody stop."No, I did not expected that it would get that out of hand; I thought it would only last like a page, but not like this. I'm now trying very hard to get the discussion out of this topic. I never claimed to stop the discussion itself (hence why I wanted to continue it with PM), nor did I stopped here to so called have the last word. If you don't realise that I had good intentions instead of pretending I did that to save my arse or something, then I have to sadly say I judged you too high:(.

And yeh, maybe I made a mistake last time by posting first my answer then saying we should PM instead of posting here. I did not thought it would be interpreted like I wanted to bail out publicly by having the last word. That was NOT the intention.To be frankly though, I also find it very hypocritical of you saying I want the last word, while you actually do want it for yourself.

[Statalyzer]

To be frankly though, I also find it very hypocritical of you saying I want the last word, while you actually do want it for yourself.

But I don't.

[truefeel]

Then try to avoid to give that impression. You first complained that I wanted to have the last word publicly, come up with your answer own publicly and you don't answer the PM. It gives the impression that you only needed to have the last word publicly and dont care about the discussion anymore.

[Frost Phantom]

yeah, prolly easier to continue in pm, but everyone has their own views, and each country is ran differently. so obviously, all our opinions will be different.

i for one dont believe in social welfare simply cause i know first hand that even someone from a low/average income family can make it to success if they just tried. blaming society is merely another example of people refusing to take responsibility for their own mistakes. but that view is distorted by the corrupt and failing social welfare system in my country.

how'd we get into politics anyways lol.

[Cylon Crusader]

yeah, prolly easier to continue in pm, but everyone has their own views, and each country is ran differently. so obviously, all our opinions will be different.

i for one dont believe in social welfare simply cause i know first hand that even someone from a low/average income family can make it to success if they just tried. blaming society is merely another example of people refusing to take responsibility for their own mistakes. but that view is distorted by the corrupt and failing social welfare system in my country.

how'd we get into politics anyways lol.

Funny story actually, this was sparked off by one of my earlier comments on this thread, about not liking the way CNC 4 is turning out but getting it anyways.

One thing led to another and lo and behold, here we are in this gargantuan discussion on politics.

[truefeel]

yeah, prolly easier to continue in pm, but everyone has their own views, and each country is ran differently. so obviously, all our opinions will be different.The same reason why this debate got way out of hand.

[Statalyzer]

Frost, just curious, what's your country?

You first complained that I wanted to have the last word publicly, come up with your answer own publicly

But I didn't say nor hint that I wanted my own public answer to be the last one! I was fine with you answering back in public.

In fact, there have been several points made on this thread since my last point.

and you don't answer the PM.

Oh good grief, I'm going to answer it, but I have to actually sit down and devote some time to thinking about it as opposed to whipping up this short reply that takes me 2 minutes to type out.

Hey Stat, if he sent you a PM continuing this discussion, could you post it here?

If he wants to keep it private, I don't think I should post it publicly. I'd be upset if I PM'ed someone and they stuck it out on the whole forum.

[truefeel]

Oh good grief, I'm going to answer it, but I have to actually sit down and devote some time to thinking about it as opposed to whipping up this short reply that takes me 2 minutes to type out.It just caught my mind it took far less time for you to reply in public then to reply with PM.

But I didn't say nor hint that I wanted my own public answer to be the last one! I was fine with you answering back in public.I made it clear that I would not post anymore in public about it, then you came up with that post, but whatever, I believe you:). But do know that it never was my intention to have the last word that way. I was a bit upset by that remark actually.


In fact, there have been several points made on this thread since my last point.Well, it was the last word against me publicly (not that I am that important).

If he wants to keep it private, I don't think I should post it publicly. I'd be upset if I PM'ed someone and they stuck it out on the whole forum.No, its ok if you really want to. I made that clear in a previous post. I just was at opinion it would be better for the sake of the topic (Like common! if someone sees "no internet? no cnc4!", clicks on it and sees a discussion about politics I think he would be like "WTF is this"). You can do it if you want, but I already sent the same PM I had send to you, to him.

[Derek]

Yeah, posted this in the wrong thread a couple hours ago:

He didn't want to keep it private, he just wanted to stop posting off topic. A new thread may have been a better idea.

So yeah, he kind of just confirmed that.

[truefeel]

That would be an option too, but should we then take off were we left? Or post prevous posts too to avoid confusion? But if so, where to start?

[Frost Phantom]

<<<is aussie

our government + social setup is a cross between the british and american systems. but slightly more left wing than those two systems.

[Ivan_Moscavich]

If I plan to take part in dicussions i need to stop by more than once a week, all my repsonses become dated. :/

[C4]

truefeel, Stat, i'd gladly join your discussion, in the apropiate topic, of course.

[truefeel]

http://forums.cncden.com/showthread.php?t=25532

[ItalianPenguin]

http://www.joystiq.com/2010/03/07/ubisoft-drm-authentification-server-is-down-assassins-creed-2/

LOL.

Edit: Sorry, I just couldn't contain myself.

[Frost Phantom]

I'd be fine with DRM if it actually did anything.
Even prior to these new DRM systems, people werent able to play online without legit copies, so the only thing these DRMs effect is offline/lan. So far, every major title that comes out have been pirated within days of their release regardless of what DRM they use... Which is why i dont see why they still bother... The only people it screws over are owners of legit copies of the game!