Speculations on crawlers and economy

[Blood Drinker]

Im not getting how they are going to pull this off... Do we have to drive our crawlers to certain collection points for tiberium? Or can we build our own refineries?

Also for crawlers... Has anyone seen the defense crawler yet? How is the turent and bunker system going to work if we cant do base building?

Correct me if im wrong, but cant crawlers also build units while they are moving and release them when the crawler deploys?

[SiDeWiNdEr]

I think I recall that they said somewhere there will be set refinerys put down for tiberium collection. Could be wrong though...

I also seem to recall them saying there will be base building for the defensive class. Maybe not specific bases but base type enhancements from experience? I dunno...

[Blood Drinker]

My understanding is that the defense class can place bigger and better turrents down as well as bunkers.

If the economy system is at preset tiberium collection points does this mean we will have to be constantly on the move going from refinery to refinery gathering tiberium?

[Frost Phantom]

i think the refinery system is gonna be similar to that of ra3, and that rather than establishing a base fortifying the hell out of it as many new players tend to do, this forces you to be on the move constantly since they prolly made it so that each refinery point only gives a small amount of income.

as for the crawlers and defensive structures, maybe its just that you can keep adding turrets and bunkers to the crawler itself? would be cool and all, but i can see this annoying the hell out of me if some noob decides to stall the entire game till they have a massive f-off crawler filled to the brim with advanced turrets and bunkered with advanced infantry....

support class should be interesting though, flying base =] that'd seriously limit the attack options against it

[Thumper]

its called Total Anihilation.

[Frost Phantom]

nah, TA only had the commander which was deadly interms of firepower but easily killed (which in turns kills everything around it :S )
what i was thinking was more on the lines of a massive friggin tank that has insane armor which takes like 10 ion cannon shots to kill....which is y it would be even more annoying if someone has upgraded it with like 100 obelisks or something.....

[TTFTCUTS]

Wouldn't something that tough kinda make turrets and such a little... obsolete? :rolleyes:

[Blood Drinker]

Depends if you could make an appropriate ambush with turrets and bunkers. You could always wall the enemy crawler into a section of the map with enough bunkers and turrets. Then just keep sending units in for the kill.

Or you could just leave bunkers everywhere you go with missile troops inside. Would make air assault very unpopular.

I am quite intested the defense crawler.

What is this by the way? Is it the defense crawler?

[Derek]

No, thats some kind of wrecked ship.

[Frost Phantom]

offensive sounds like the type most people are gonna go with though, unit spamming + power up skills :S
but support sounds like more fun, a flying base! =] man i can seriously piss some people off by parking it in the middle of nowhere floating ontop of water! :P

[EliteGi]

Guys, if the crawlers are upgradable with defensive stuctures, there's obviously going to be a limit on the number of structures that can be placed on it. I'm sure it's not going to take 10 ion cannon strikes to destroy either. :| In all likelyhood, it will have superunit armor (alike a mammoth MKII or M.A.R.V).

The crawler will be more of a support unit, and not something you'd want to run up against an army of tanks by itself. Unless you're a noob of course. :p

Off-topic, I hope there's carryall support for the MKII (or what that equivalent mech is in the pictures). Nothing quite like being able to leash surprise MKII buttsecks on the back of someone's base who is occupied with a battle elsewhere or some div has just decided to bunker in. :)

What is this by the way? Is it the defense crawler?
Looks like a new kodiac ship, a mobile command post for GDI.

[Blood Drinker]

I wonder exactly how thick crawler armor will be. Im hoping the defense crawler will be able to be upgraded with energy shielding. They had something similar with the firestorm base defense. Having that localized for a crawler would be excellent.

This does bring up an interesting point though.


What happened to power? Will we still build power plants? How else will we be able to power on the ion cannon and various super weapons. The developers have stated we can place down turrets. How will we power them? By allowing us to build power plants they are giving us weak and unmovable points in an otherwise fully mobile strategy.

[Derek]

I really don't think that power will play a role in this game.

[EliteGi]

I really don't think that power will play a role in this game.
Agreed. Really I think the whole point of the crawlers is to take focus away from base building and resource gathering and more onto unit combat. The crawlers will of course be very important units but it's not like they will be super powerful indestructable gods of war.

I'm thinking they may provide interesting rush opportunities on small maps though. :chin:

[Blood Drinker]

Well according to the new data from todays news....


Defense class is the only one that can lay turrets or bunkers. This might be devastating, especially with the abilty of NOD turrents to burrow.

A circle of burrowed obelisks pops up around your precious crawler.... :lmao:

Burrowed SAM sites....

I wonder what they will give GDI? Perhaps shields or reinforced turrets and bunkers.

[Cylon Crusader]

If you ask me, EA is really going halo wars-ish on this one. Halo wars features socket bases so that they are easier and faster to control, the flow of resources is steady as well, all of this so that you can focus on combat more.

While i agree that this was a good idea for halo wars, i dont think that they should go along those lines for CNC 4. Granted, managing battles is the main point of the CNC series, but so is building and managing a base vast enough to propel your army to victory.

I like the fact that the tiberium series is ending on a big finale (sad to see it go though) but moveable bases is just too much. When i first heard that there were going to be moveable bases in CNC 4, i couldn't be happier. But when i later found out that the original base building in CNC has been completely replaced, I was taken back quite a bit.

Originally I envisioned the all in one base vehicle to be a super unit, something that costs max tech level and an insane amount of credits to build, and that we would still have access to our original CNC base building ways. The "portable base" is a good way to kepp moving around the battlefield and focus on battles personally, but it halves the essence of CNC by removing base building (almost) altogether.

In response to BloodDrinker's comment on power:

If you've played either star trek armada, or star trek armada 2, then you may be familiar with the ability to convert one resource into another in case you run low. What EA could do is something similar, with what i will henceforth refer to as the "upkeep" process. The upkeep process would basically tax the player a number of tiberium credits per minute in terms of buildings constructed on your crawler. For example, a barracks that would originally cost 2 power, would maybe cost 50 tiberium per minute to maintain, while a war factory (originally costing 5 power) would cost 100 to 120 tiberium per minute to maintain.

If one fails to meet the upkeep cost of the building, the "super buildings" such as ion cannons and advanced research centers would shut down until they are either sold or the upkeep is met again. The smaller scale buildings such as barracks, war factories and bunkers would show drastic slow down times in terms of unit production.

What do you guys think?
Could this work out?

[Blood Drinker]

It could be possible, but that would depend on the flow of tiberium in from the refineries.
I don't think we will be harvesting the tiberium. Thus it should come in at a set rate which would give us a building cap. I don't think EA will do that to us.

Also that would split resources from unit buiding to turrents and super weapons like the ion cannon. I do not think this will be an adequate strategy.

I believe that the better turrets and ion cannons wont take up power, but instead be ridiculously high up on the tech tree so that your crawler must be of good level to attain it.

[Cylon Crusader]

It could be possible, but that would depend on the flow of tiberium in from the refineries.
I don't think we will be harvesting the tiberium. Thus it should come in at a set rate which would give us a building cap. I don't think EA will do that to us.

Also that would split resources from unit buiding to turrents and super weapons like the ion cannon. I do not think this will be an adequate strategy.

I believe that the better turrets and ion cannons wont take up power, but instead be ridiculously high up on the tech tree so that your crawler must be of good level to attain it.

Yep, couldn't agree more.

[Blood Drinker]

Does anyone know what the defense crawler will look like? I have been skimming the magazine pages and have only found pics of the support and offense crawlers.

Also from the new information, does this mean that treaded standard mammoths are back?

A pic from the mag scans showed a mammoth tank getting upgraded with what looked like energy cannons and doubled tusk missiles.

[Frost Phantom]

well the examples i used like 100 obbys or 10 ion shots were a bit exagerated, but you get the gist of it...
and yes, this will give a whole new meaning to MCV rushs! =]

i dont like the idea of pre-set harvesting points though, cuz then it'll be like ra3 and you get a constant but slow stream of income which really takes the edge out of any serious early game shock and awe tactics....that and alot of cnc has always been harvester microing to maximise profit but with the whole relay nodes system, you just have to place the refinery and forget about it...this also seriously limits harrassment strategies cuz even if you do attack the relay node when your opp is making a puch for your base, they'll prolly ignore it cuz the max they'll lose is a harvy and a ref whereas with the tib field harvesting system, if they dont split their attention and defend their tib field, they risk losing a crapload of harvesters and multiple refineries, effectively crippling their economy.

[Blood Drinker]

Will we be allowed to build harvesters and place down the Tiberium collection network things? Or will they be prebuilt and we build harvesters to get money from them?

How will money work? Will it be like the tiberium spike method or will we have harvesters going back and forth from our crawlers to the tiberium network?

Shock and awe tactics have been pretty much eliminated. Pop cap and tight economy have pretty much obliterated them from gameplay.

[Frost Phantom]

yeah, it sucks though, cuz there nothing better than pwning someone by outnumbering them like 10 to 1 :P

as for the money system, im fairly sure its gonna be like the way its done in RA3....afterall, they are using the same engine as RA3

[Blood Drinker]

For one who did not like the look or units of RA3 could you tell me what the economy was like for it?

I never bought the game.

I vaguely remember something about depletable ore mines. Thought it was kind of like starcraft with finite resources.

Overall I am thinking this game will literally revolve around crawler combat now, as we have unit caps. Who cares if your opponent sends 20 measly units at you? Run them over with your crawler and try to kill the other one since neither of you can make more than the pop cap which is miniature.

[ArmoredBear]

For one who did not like the look or units of RA3 could you tell me what the economy was like for it?

I never bought the game.

I vaguely remember something about depletable ore mines. Thought it was kind of like starcraft with finite resources.

Overall I am thinking this game will literally revolve around crawler combat now, as we have unit caps. Who cares if your opponent sends 20 measly units at you? Run them over with your crawler and try to kill the other one since neither of you can make more than the pop cap which is miniature.
Economy worked sort of like Starcraft/Warcraft, yes (Think it's best described as collecting Vespene in Starcraft actually). There were ore nodes, and your harvester drove up to it, had ore dumped in, and dropped it off at the refinery. There was only 1 harvester per node needed (unless you for some reason didn't build it at the optimal location.) When the node was depleted you would get a fraction of a full load. It helped to regulate the amount of resources a player could have so someone couldn't just suck up an entire field of ore and crank out a huge army right away. That's probably how it'll work for C&C4, which is a good thing.

As for the unit cap, I personally don't like it, but I don't think the game will revolve around crawler combat because of it. My guess is crawlers will be strong, but definitely not strong enough to repel an attack on their own, unless it's a very weak one. Hopefully the unit cap ends up being a lenient one that's only there to prevent someone from stalling the game out for a really long time, not to force everyone to use small armies. It's probably needed, unfortunately, since the game engine will probably suck. I can't see the game engine (Sage 2.0 or whatever) handling 10 massive armies even without bases, seeing how RA3 could only handle 6 players max instead of the usual 8.

[Frost Phantom]

basically, each ore mine has limited ore and you build your ref next to it and the harvy goes back and forth between the two. so overall, you get a steady stream of funds throughout the whole game rather than the old CNC style of quickly getting lots of money by mining up your initial field and spam units, then massive slow down of production whilst you establish new base, then repeat....

but there was usualy plenty of oil rigs (same as tib spikes) so you get some income from that too.
i didnt play RA3 much and didnt pay much attention when i did, but i think that even once the mines are depleted, the harvies will still extract ore from it, just much smaller amounts rather than full load dumps of cash....

but since there is a unit cap, this system would prolly work alright cuz the unit cap voids lots of unit spam tactics.

as for the size of the unit cap, i read on the cnc forum's Q&A thingy that they are doing a cap of like 100, but its per base or something...eitherway, its not an overall unit cap, but more like each crawler (or watever provides the unit upkeep) can support 100 units, so if you want more, you just gotta build more of those...but obviously, those things will prolly be realy expensive and hard to get, or maybe they are neutral resource points you can capture (kinda like how some cnc3 maps have "Expansion Point" buildings)

[Blood Drinker]

I'm hoping the economy will function alot like the generals zero hour china economy.

The Chinese had a building called internet hacking or something. You stick engineers inside and it made money per engineer you put in.

I looked at the tiberium control network and it looks like this could be the case as there are 4 slots for rigs. Perhaps the rigs drive up grab some tib and come back, but you can only use 4 rigs. And since tib is such a fast growing resource I'm hoping the tib control will be infinite.

Sort of like vespene gas only without running out and a few more slots.

I don't like this unit cap at all. Never was one for microing, and thats what this may turn out to be.

[Derek]

Internet center and you put hackers into it. They also did just fine hacking out in the open. That was China's tertiary economy though, you hardly ever saw it.

[Blood Drinker]

That hi res defense crawler pic looks great. I am impressed with turret size and what looks to be a heavily armored crawler, although i didn't see any turrets on the crawler itself. Pity.

[Frost Phantom]

i like microing, cuz unlike unit spamming, which just require you to memorise a build pattern, microing actually requires skill...that and i've been playing dota a fair bit lately so im used to controling fewer units whilst them having lots of skills/abilities to use =]

[Blood Drinker]

this may be slightly more difficult than DOTA since we have to keep track of our crawlers.

This does bring up a good point though... Can we have more than one crawler?

[TTFTCUTS]

That would seem unlikely considering that there is a respawn mechanic for losing ones crawler. It could be just for the final one on the field, but I bet that respawn is the only way to get one.

[Frost Phantom]

not realy, cuz just like dota, each unit with have multiple command abilities, and you'll have to keep track of everything thats happening through the minimap and constantly rechecking every hot engagement zone you got forces in.

[Blood Drinker]

Either way this doesn't sound too promising.

Might as well wait for them to unveil more on the crawlers before i make my judgement.

[Ivan_Moscavich]

You know what really annoys the **** out of me.

You can't at any time have complete acess to your entire army

Your army will be limited as to what crawler you have.

Seriiously, WHO even considering bringing this idea to EA?


:tantrum:

[Blood Drinker]

Thats EA for you...

It is troubling that we most likely will never have full access to all units within our own faction wihout letting our crawler die and respawn.

There goes the mammoth and air support charge....

[Ivan_Moscavich]

There goes the mammoth and air support charge....

Oh those mother ****ers...

[Blood Drinker]

Most of our strategies are probably not going to work in CNC 4...

No tank spam....

No shock and awe....

No harvester hunting....

No superweapons... (unless we have the support crawlers)

No scrin....

This does not look to be good. I may just go def class and turret crawl my way to victory at this point since there is a unit cap and probably economy constraints.

[Ivan_Moscavich]

Most of our strategies are probably not going to work in CNC 4...

No tank spam....

No shock and awe....

No harvester hunting....

No superweapons... (unless we have the support crawlers)

No scrin....

This does not look to be good. I may just go def class and turret crawl my way to victory at this point since there is a unit cap and probably economy constraints.

I'll just do whatever I need to do to get it all done and over with, then I'll go into the corner with my classic CnC with nostalgia goggles and complain about the new CnC.

[Blood Drinker]

I say sheer turret spam with defense in campaign and have a buddy be support class and ion cannon everything that stands in your way.


I don't like how EA is basically ignoring us when it comes to the game. They just want to chug along even when they know most of us are not happy with the direction the game is going.

[apple23]

the prospect of this game just becomes more and more and more unattractive as I think about it...

[Thumper]

I don't like how EA is basically ignoring us when it comes to the game. They just want to chug along even when they know most of us are not happy with the direction the game is going.

they are prolly spending as little as possible on concept art and game art and directing funds to the hype machine, sell some units and then announce cnc5.

[apple23]

thus the classic EA formula.

Wouldn't surprise me too much but it would be weird if they just came out and said "oh just kidding CNC4 isnt the end CNC5 is!"