Harro ladies...

[NodMan]

I've visited this site for ages (both CNCDEN and RADEN (since CNCDEN had info about Tiberium Sun)) but I've finally decided to register on the Forums. So yah, harro Lion (you never return my EMails) I'm only looking for some loven :P

P.S. I've used "NodMan", since Tiberian Dawn the DOS version lol. :moonie:

[Thumper]

hey boy! ...we don't take kindly to yo kind 'round here!

get outta here boy! :shifty:

[EliteGi]

Hello thar! These be the forums where all the cool kids hang out, 'onest!

[nilloC]

Hi.

Do yourself a favor and never read The Culture of Time & Space: 1880-1918 by Stephen Kern. Just giving you a heads-up.

[Derek]

Ooh! I haven't gotten to do this one in awhile, I'm surprised no one has beaten me to it:

Don't feed the Rolk.

EDIT: BTW, I think the title of this thread should read either "Harro radies" or "Hallo Ladies". Use your incorrect pronunciations consistently!*


*Note: I am not actually sure if the position of /l/ in a word effects its (mis)pronunciation when stereotypical Asians try to say it.

[ein1017]

yeah you don't want to know when you do feed the rolk :shifty:

[Alpha and Omega]

*Note: I am not actually sure if the position of /l/ in a word effects its (mis)pronunciation when stereotypical Asians try to say it.

After half a year of life, Southeast Asians are physically incapable of vocally differentiating the R and L sound. So I don't think it really matters.

[NodMan]

Hehe fun times.

hey boy! ...we don't take kindly to yo kind 'round here!

get outta here boy! :shifty:

You don't like big black guys? Hmm

Ooh! I haven't gotten to do this one in awhile, I'm surprised no one has beaten me to it:

Don't feed the Rolk.

EDIT: BTW, I think the title of this thread should read either "Harro radies" or "Hallo Ladies". Use your incorrect pronunciations consistently!*


*Note: I am not actually sure if the position of /l/ in a word effects its (mis)pronunciation when stereotypical Asians try to say it.

Say "Harro" outloud, in a Chinese accent :P

[truefeel]

You don't like big black guys? Hmm



Seems Nilloc is going to "like" you rather alot:p.

Welcome to the forums.

[Toxic10x]

Hi. [/brevity]

[Derek]

After half a year of life, Southeast Asians are physically incapable of vocally differentiating the R and L sound. So I don't think it really matters.
But 'r' (actually /ɹ/) and /l/ are still very much different sounds, and its unlikely (though not impossible) for them to use to different representations (/ɹ/ and /l/) of the same sound (/l/).

[Camel]

:rockbrow:There is some linguistic confusion here....it`s the japanese alphabet that has no letter 'l' not the chinese, however I don`t know about other asian languages..... :wave:

(a visit to Wales, where a lot is spelt in welsh must be most confusing to a japanese...:lol:)

[SirSnake]

(a visit to Wales, where a lot is spelt in welsh must be most confusing to a japanese...:lol:)



Its confusing for everyone!

[Alpha and Omega]

:rockbrow:There is some linguistic confusion here....it`s the japanese alphabet that has no letter 'l' not the chinese, however I don`t know about other asian languages..... :wave:
(a visit to Wales, where a lot is spelt in welsh must be most confusing to a japanese...:lol:)

We were referring to speech ability. Not written language. It takes years of reformation of the vocal muscles for Asians who speak English as a second language to be able to separate the sounds.

[Camel]

We were referring to speech ability. Not written language. It takes years of reformation of the vocal muscles for Asians who speak English as a second language to be able to separate the sounds.


You are still confusing the chinese with the japanese...Chinese learn english faster than japanese:p

[Derek]

This started as a joke, but whatever. You're both under quite a lot of linguistic confusion actually, but mostly A&O.

Japanese has no sound equivalent to English 'l' or 'r' (IPA* [l] and [ɹ]), but it has a sound that lies somewhere in between, [ɽ], which can be heard by English speakers variously as /l/ or /ɹ/, though tending more towards /l/. This sound is also very close to the sound in the middle of "butter" in American dialects, which is called a flap and has IPA symbol [ɾ].

Korean has /l/, which can be expressed as either [l] or [ɾ].

Mandarin Chinese has /l/ and /ɻ/, the latter of which is close to an English /ɹ/ (and English /ɹ/ may in fact be expressed as [ɻ] in some contexts). Therefore Chinese speakers will be able to distinguish and pronounce /l/ and /ɹ/ correctly in English. According to Wikipedia, other Chinese dialects languages do not have /ɻ/ though, so these speakers may have trouble.

Its worth nothing that [l] is easier to pronounce than [ɹ] (and related sounds), which is reflected by the fact that [l] is more common in the above languages than [ɹ].

We were referring to speech ability. Not written language.
If a language does not distinguish two sounds in speech then it is extremely unlikely that they will be distinguished in spelling. If this occurs it likely represents the etymology of the word, or a sound that was lost in the language (like [x] in English). Regardless it wouldn't help speakers of the language learn the new sound at all.

The converse however is much more common: Sounds that are distinguished in speech by not in writing. For example, "th" in English represents both [θ] and [ð] (for example, "thigh" and "thy").

It takes years of reformation of the vocal muscles for Asians who speak English as a second language to be able to separate the sounds.
This is completely false. Muscles do not have to be "reformed" to make unfamiliar sound, though muscle memory does play a role in how natural it is to make a sound. Regardless, you can teach yourself to say a new sound passably well with just a little practice. Distinguishing these sounds and correctly using them in speech is another matter though, and like learning anything about a new language, takes exposure and real world practice to master.


*Notes on IPA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet): A symbol in square brackets "[]" represents the actual pronunciation of a sound. A symbol in slashes "/ /" represents a phoneme, which can be thought of as the "perceived" sound. There may be multiple different sounds that represent the same phoneme, but the differences will not be used to distinguish words, and indeed speakers may be unaware that they are using different sounds. For example, in American English the phoneme /t/ can be expressed as [t] ("Bet"), [ɾ] ("Better"), or [ʔ] ("Kitten").

If you want to know how any of these sounds are actually pronounced, copy and paste the symbol into a Wikipedia search.

[Alpha and Omega]

Lol. Don't mind me, I'm just going by what the speech pathologists here are telling me. Surely they know nothing of muscle formation or malapportionment, and they certainly don't have to deal with over 400 cases of this very thing every year. Perhaps I should have Wiki'd it before I mentioned what the people who wrote the books say, huh?

That'll teach me to listen to Doctors! :p

There is some linguistic confusion here....it`s the japanese alphabet that has no letter 'l' not the chinese, however I don`t know about other asian languages.....

Ironically, Cantonese has no 'r'. Maybe they should meet somewhere and figure it out.

[Derek]

Lol. Don't mind me, I'm just going by what the speech pathologists here are telling me. Surely they know nothing of muscle formation or malapportionment, and they certainly don't have to deal with over 400 cases of this very thing every year. Perhaps I should have Wiki'd it before I mentioned what the people who wrote the books say, huh?

That'll teach me to listen to Doctors! :p
And I'm a linguistics minor who has taught myself to pronounce many foreign sounds. Perhaps your problem is that you are talking to pathologists, people who deal with disorders of speech, not foreign language acquisition.

Ironically, Cantonese has no 'r'. Maybe they should meet somewhere and figure it out.
As I've already pointed out, Japanese doesn't have either 'l' or 'r', they have something in between, so thats not going to help too much :p (especially since 'r' is much more problematic than 'l')

[NodMan]

Now now ladies. It is funny and all that you don't get the little joke I made (has no one seen old kung-fu movies?). That however isn't grounds to turn this into a college thesis.

So remember, don't get irate masturbate.

I like boobs, that is all.

[Alpha and Omega]

Perhaps you're problem is that you are talking to pathologists, people who deal with disorders of speech, not foreign language acquisition.

Indeed.

So remember, don't get irate masturbate.

Just don't do both at once. Never masturbate angry, too dangerous.

[Derek]

Now now ladies. It is funny and all that you don't get the little joke I made (has no one seen old kung-fu movies?). That however isn't grounds to turn this into a college thesis.
I think we all got it. I was just making fun of it.

Just don't do both at once. Never masturbate angry, too dangerous.
I don't even think that would be possible. And think the two emotional states are opposed to each other.

[NodMan]

I'm never angry (well when some jackass hit my car when it was parked outside my house so hard it ended up in my lawn, and then drove away. I was pretty mad there, but Pink Floyd and 24mg Hydromorphones cured that).

Isn't that funny how that works though? Angry make-up sex is great.

[Alpha and Omega]

I don't even think that would be possible. And think the two emotional states are opposed to each other.

You obviously haven't masturbated enough. :p

[Camel]

:rolleyes:One day, the great linguist called Derek will understand the difference between 'Your' and 'you`re'

Oh btw, I corrected your misuse of it a few posts up....:p:p

[C4]

You obviously haven't masturbated enough. :p
Give him time...:D

[kwark]

Hi there, don't mind Derek's answers and comments, he has no life other then reading wikipedia on various subjects.

...and don't call me a lady, that was a long time ago ;)

[Derek]

Hi there, don't mind Derek's answers and comments, he has no life other then reading wikipedia on various subjects.
Its true.

[SirSnake]

I thought he also went around t'interweb searching out debates and arguments on any and every subject with the crushing desire to win them all? :p


(love you really derek!)

[Derek]

I thought he also went around t'interweb searching out debates and arguments on any and every subject with the crushing desire to win them all? :p
No, just arguments here and on GR.org.

I also kill time on TVTropes. I highly recommend it, as long as you have a life to lose.

[SirSnake]

Irregular webcomic nearly got me into TV tropes in a bad way, and that man is badly addicted!


Arent you still trashing folk at ZH as well?

[Derek]

Arent you still trashing folk at ZH as well?
Sundays at 3:00 (US Eastern time) on Hamachi.

I'm mostly playing QuakeLive these days.

[EliteGi]

No, just arguments here and on GR.org.

I also kill time on TVTropes. I highly recommend it, as long as you have a life to lose.
Aww looks like Derek just needs some loving. Come here and give me hug :p

[truefeel]

Aww looks like Derek just needs some loving. Come here and give me hug :p

Can I has some:shy:?

[C4]

Can I has some:shy:?
Of course you can. Big hug and a rubbing in the head to you TF.:)

[Statalyzer]

TV Tropes is addicting, but also a pain in the ass b/c when you go to a particular movie/show, they list about 100 tropes it has and only on maybe 10 of them does it actually tell you what in the show fits that trope. So if you want to know, you have to visit about 90 different trope pages and scroll down to see if they list that particular show/movie.

But 'r' (actually /ɹ/) and /l/ are still very much different sounds

But formed nearly identically. One can switch back and forth from emitting a constant rrrrrrrrrrrr to a constant llllllllllllllllll with a very slight movement of the tongue (against the back of the teeth for the L's).

This sound is also very close to the sound in the middle of "butter" in American dialects, which is called a flap and has IPA symbol [ɾ].

Interesting, because that 'flap' sound is formed in almost the same way as the L and R, but is much closer in sound to a D.

I don't even think that would be possible. And think the two emotional states are opposed to each other.

Huh? Of course it's possible. The mental states are not really opposed either, they are very similar as far as stimulation and adrenaline goes. And even if they were, emotions are not generally paired as ends of binary switches. Emotions we think of as 'opposite' can usually be felt at the same time.

[NodMan]

Don't forget some purple soda.

[Derek]

But formed nearly identically. One can switch back and forth from emitting a constant rrrrrrrrrrrr to a constant llllllllllllllllll with a very slight movement of the tongue (against the back of the teeth for the L's).
Yes, they are closely related sounds, which is why speakers of languages that do not distinguish them may get them confused.

Interesting, because that 'flap' sound is formed in almost the same way as the L and R, but is much closer in sound to a D.
Thats because they are all alveolar sounds: Formed by placing the tongue on (or near) the alveolar ridge. Additionally, all the sounds except /t/ are voiced. The difference is in the manner of articulation: /t/ and /d/ are a stops, /ɹ/ is an approximant, /l/ is a lateral approximant, and /ɾ/ is a flap. Thus if you form /ɹ/ or /l/ but briefly stop the airflow, you'll likely end up with /ɾ/. Likewise, if you form /d/ but quicken it (so you don't stop the airflow for as long), you will also end up with /ɾ/.

And for the record, /r/ is a rolled 'r', like in Spanish. A flap is also like an 'r' that is rolled exactly once. So as you can see, a flap lies at the crossroads of many other consonants.

[Statalyzer]

Something else I just randomly notice is that you can hold out the English L and R sounds, but not D.

I'm not sure how you "quicken" the D sound b/c it's made with the tongue only barely touching the teeth and then instantly removing the contact again. Hard to make that movement any faster than it is.

[Derek]

Something else I just randomly notice is that you can hold out the English L and R sounds, but not D.
Actually you can hold a D, but it won't sound like much. Strictly speaking, you can hold any sound, but only voiced sounds will produce anything, and further stops will not sounds like much, since they require stopping the airflow. /l/ and /ɹ/ are approximants, so they do not completely stop the airflow, and can be held. Additionally, they are sonorants, which means they make more sound than most consonants, and thus are able to form the nucleus of a syllable in English, as in "bird" (/bɹd/) and "bottle" (/bɑtl/).

I'm not sure how you "quicken" the D sound b/c it's made with the tongue only barely touching the teeth and then instantly removing the contact again. Hard to make that movement any faster than it is.
First of all, you're describing a dental /d/, where as a flap corresponds to an alveolar /d/. This is a free variation in English, and most speakers would never tell a difference (there are, however, languages that distinguish dental and alveolar /d/ and /t/, such as Hindi). So instead of making a /d/ by putting your tongue behind your teeth form it by putting your tongue on the flesh behind your teeth (think about how you say the /d/ in "lad").

Now, as for what I mean by quicken, I'll quote Wikipedia for a more formal definition: "The main difference between a flap and a stop consonant is that in a flap, there is no buildup of air pressure behind the place of articulation, and consequently no release burst. Otherwise a flap is similar to a brief stop."

As I said, this quickening is the difference between a flap ("ladder") and an alveolar /d/ ("lad"). So the answer to "how do you quicken /d/" is "you flap it". As long as you can tell the difference between the [d] in those two words (I can pretty much guarantee you have it, its all but universal in American English), thats it.

[Statalyzer]

I still don't see how you can hold a movement in place.

As I said, this quickening is the difference between a flap ("ladder") and an alveolar /d/ ("lad").

I form those d's in the same way. But it sounds like by "quickening" a sound you mean something other than "do it more quickly"

[Derek]

I still don't see how you can hold a movement in place.
/d/ does not strictly require movement. What you're thinking of as "movement" is probably the release, which is when most of the sound is heard. But you can just put your tongue and mouth the position to form a /d/. But since the airflow is stopped, you'll hear no sound. Then when you release it, you'll hear the familiar "duh". There are words in which the /d/ (usually at the end) remains unreleased though, and in these cases you will hear almost nothing where the /d/ is. Its presence is instead felt in its affect on the previous vowel.

I form those d's in the same way.
Extremely unlikely, though you may not realize the difference (its very subtle).

But it sounds like by "quickening" a sound you mean something other than "do it more quickly"
I use "quickening" informally. Thats why I posted the quote from Wikipedia, which gives a more technical description.

[Statalyzer]

Well, you said the difference was that the ladder-D is where the tongue hits the teeth, but the other D - "form it by putting your tongue on the flesh behind your teeth (think about how you say the /d/ in "lad")" but my tongue hits the same part of my mouth either way.

But you can just put your tongue and mouth the position to form a /d/. But since the airflow is stopped, you'll hear no sound.

Then you aren't holding out any sound. You can hold out the "duh" sound, but only the "uh" part gets drawn out.

I do find it a bit odd that, as you mentioned, English uses the th blend for thin and then. The 'th' of then is very similar to a D. Knowing this helped a lot when taking Spanish b/c the Spanish D is a sound that English doesn't have, it's kind of midway between English D and English hard th. Wonder why we didn't just use th and dh instead of using the same letters for both.

[Derek]

Well, you said the difference was that the ladder-D is where the tongue hits the teeth, but the other D - "form it by putting your tongue on the flesh behind your teeth (think about how you say the /d/ in "lad")" but my tongue hits the same part of my mouth either way.
That was a different distinction. "Lad" and "Ladder" will both be formed by touching the tongue to the alveolar ridge (instead of behind your teeth). The difference is that in "Lad" you will fully stop the airflow, while in "Ladder" (said casually) you will release it before air can build up behind it.

Then you aren't holding out any sound. You can hold out the "duh" sound, but only the "uh" part gets drawn out.
You're still holding the consonant. The consonant just doesn't produce a sound.

I do find it a bit odd that, as you mentioned, English uses the th blend for thin and then. The 'th' of then is very similar to a D. Knowing this helped a lot when taking Spanish b/c the Spanish D is a sound that English doesn't have, it's kind of midway between English D and English hard th. Wonder why we didn't just use th and dh instead of using the same letters for both.
Thats because the 'th' in "then" (/ð/) and /d/ are both voiced, while the 'th' in "thin" (/θ/) and /t/ are both unvoiced. Icelandic uses different letters for these two sounds: 'ð' ("eth") for /ð/ (can you guess where the IPA symbol came from?) and 'þ' ("thorn") for /θ/. Old English possessed both of these letters as well (they derive from the runic alphabet), but used them interchangeably.

Notably, "the" was once spelled "þe". In cursive scripts, 'þ' gradually shifted in shape, the top bar was reduced and the loop was increasingly opened until it resembled (but was still distinct from) a 'y'. This is the originin of the misconception that "the" was once pronounced "ye", as in "ye olde shoppe". In reality it has always been pronounced the same, but was once written as "þe" instead.

As for the Spanish 'd', Wikipedia says that it is a "laminal denti-alveolar", which seems to match your description as "between /d/ and /ð/".

[NodMan]

How and why is this still going on?

[Statalyzer]

while in "Ladder" (said casually) you will release it before air can build up behind it.

You have to do that to make the 'er' sound.

How and why is this still going on?

Because Derek and I like discussing linguistics and pronunciation.

Old English possessed both of these letters as well (they derive from the runic alphabet), but used them interchangeably.

Do you actually mean "Old English" there (which is totally unintelligible to us today and really a totally separate language - even Chaucer's Middle English is quite a chore to make sense of), or the common meaning of "Old English" which is actually the early modern English of the King James Bible or Shakespeare?

[Derek]

You have to do that to make the 'er' sound.
No you don't :p

You will not flap the [d] before stressed syllables. I can't think of a good word pair to demonstrate this for [d] (for [t] just think about "atom" and "atomic"), but try "Adam" and "a dam".

Do you actually mean "Old English" there (which is totally unintelligible to us today and really a totally separate language - even Chaucer's Middle English is quite a chore to make sense of), or the common meaning of "Old English" which is actually the early modern English of the King James Bible or Shakespeare?
Do I look that naive? :p

[truefeel]

Do I look that naive? :p

Well that's a bit difficult cause you never post a freaking picture of yourself!

:p

[KrasnyOktyabr]

Well that's a bit difficult cause you never post a freaking picture of yourself!

:p

Yeeearrrrg!

[Statalyzer]

(for [t] just think about "atom" and "atomic"), but try "Adam" and "a dam".

I pronounce atom like Adam (same with latter and ladder, as most people do with t's in many words). Difference between Adam and a dam is the vowel sounds are both different.

[Derek]

I pronounce atom like Adam (same with latter and ladder, as most people do with t's in many words).
Thats precisely it. Both [t] and [d] become /ɾ/ in that situation.

Difference between Adam and a dam is the vowel sounds are both different.
Which is why I said I couldn't find a good pair of words, thats the best I could come up with in a few minutes. But the [d] in the two words (or rather, word and phrase) are also different.

[nilloC]

When I was 8 I couldn't properly pronounce my "R"s. Instead I replaced them with a "W" sound. But that wasn't nearly as bad as friends who instead replaced the "N" sound with "M"s. Also, one kid I knew couldn't properly speak "S", but instead performed more of an "Sh" maneuver.

Riddle me that. :p

[C4]

Shaushages...:yummy:

The "sh" is somewhat common as a deviant pronounce. And chinese are known for their "how ale you mistel?", isn't that tlue?:D