Magnetron

[truefeel]

Originally Posted by theprime

Yes, I fear that we may be drifting slightly from the point here...


Also, I was reading the "why do you hate yuri?" thread, and someone there mentioned killing 8 rhinoes with 3 mags. How would such a thing be possible, especially against someone who moves their rhinoes around?

It's not the magnetrons actually which does the killing, but units like lasher tanks do that. It does not matter if the rhinoes are moving, b/c if they do, you have 2 options: either they are moving away from and are fleeing, or they are attacking in which case the magnetrons can possibly keep 5 rhinoes from getting to you. If you have like 7 lasher tanks, then he is outgunned with his 3 rhinoes, b/c the other 5 were massively slowed down.

[Statalyzer]

Also, I was reading the "why do you hate yuri?" thread, and someone there mentioned killing 8 rhinoes with 3 mags. How would such a thing be possible, especially against someone who moves their rhinoes around?

If that's all the forces that are available, the Rhinos win easily.

But here's how mags are so power. Let's use equal forces - A has 12 rhinos (price = 10,600) and Z has 11 lashers and 2 mags (price = 10,700 counting the Psychic Radar).

Now, Mags have the range advantage, so before any tanks exchange fire, each of Z's mags picks up a rhino from the front of the A's force. Now it's (temporarily) 10 rhinos vs 11 lashers, which is still an advantage for A. But the battle hasn't begun yet. If A charges Z with his 10 remaining rhinos, then he risks one or both of the airlifted Rhinos dropping on top of another tank, killing both. So, he could have 12, or 10, or 8 tanks still alive, so let's go with 10 as the middle case. This loss is permanent, but in the time it takes him to charge Z, the mags will pick up 2 different tanks, so it might be 10 vs 11, but the fight is 8 vs 11.

A can avoid this if he doesn't charge Z, but if he just sits there than A can calmly drop both rhinos right in front of his whole tank force and easily destroy them without losing a lasher, because each rhino will only get one shot off. So it's still down to 10 rhinos vs 11 lashers, and then the mags can pick up 2 more and the process begins again.

So clearly, staying in place isn't an option for A. He must retreat and regroup, or fight. But remember if he fights, he's got 8 rhinos fighting 11 lashers (because 2 rhinos are in the air), which is an even battle. Now of course those 2 rhinos will eventually land and get to fight, but before they do, Z can pick up 2 more rhinos. Units take a second to fall to the ground, so there will be 4 rhinos in the air at once.

The only way for A to win this fight is to:

1) If he's a much better player, he can probably outproduce Z and fight with a more powerful force. Or he can micro much better. Of course, this won't work with players who are close in ability, since Yuri usually has the easiest economy to manage.

2) He can beat Z before Z gets up the radar and builds mags. It's doable but tough since Yuri can use bunkers and brutes and usually save himself from an early rush - or he might rush A back with an early Gatt and threaten to wreck his power, buying himself more time.

3) He can use terror drones, but this will only work if Z doesn't see them being built and counter with Gatts, which ravage drones.

4) He can crawl slowly forward with Desolators - one of the few things Yuri has trouble with. This is tricky though, since there's no obligation to fight and Yuri can always draw back and regroup - which is easier for him to do than for the Soviets to do, since he isn't slowed down by walking infantry and isn't being mag-harassed if the armies get close together. And the time pressure is on the Soviets, because once Yuri gets discs the Desolators are in trouble.

[theprime]

Hmm... how many tanks can one mag juggle at one time? I heard somewhere that it was 5, but surely that's ridiculous. I think it's more like 3, but i'm not sure. and as for you're post, Stat, unless you drop a rhino on another one, the fight is 8v11, which as you said is fair. That gives me the impression that mags are fair, which obviously doesn't seem to be the case.

[truefeel]

B/c it does not stop with that. In reality it would go from 8v11 to momentarily 6vs11 to maybe 5vs9 to 3vs9 to ultimately all rhinoes are killed, while there are still alot of lashers.

Could someone explain how xfire works in vista? maybe we could set up a game then.

[Statalyzer]

I think it's more like 3, but i'm not sure. and as for you're post, Stat, unless you drop a rhino on another one, the fight is 8v11, which as you said is fair.

Yes, you might fail to drop any rhinos on top of others, but then again you might also drop BOTH rhinos on top of others, killing 4 tanks! So I went with the average of one rhino dropped and 2 kills.

[truefeel]

Depends hugely on how big your tank force is. A big group has almost 100% to get tanks on top of eachother, but a small group has alot of chance to avoid it.

Not that if you play it smart you'll have to face this; if you are even on planning making rhinoes early game, only make 3 to 4 and keep yuri's units away from your tanks with desolators, while you use your tanks to stop him from teching up. Number one target should always be his power. Most yuri players only keep one powerplant and if that goes down he a) can't use psy towers b) all of his production slows down and c) he lost his radarmap.

What you also can do on small maps is playing very cheap and alting his war factory with your miner. Now he can't damage the miner without damaging his own factory too, giving a great opertunity to quickly take out the war factory if you throw in a tank or 2. But like I said that's playing cheap and most online players would not appreciate it, even though it is not bug abuse and thus it stays within rules.

[apple23]

one thing I did recently against a yuri player of decent skill that ultimately won me a game was i flanked him. I engaged him head on with about 50% of my force (full force was about 20 rhinoes; he had about 20-ish lashers, and 4 mags) while the mags were playing with my 10 rhinoes at front (and i kept retreating and leading him on, meaning few losses for me cuz he didnt charge me with the lashers), I came in from the back and whooped his mags with my other 10 rhinoes. Then his lashers had nowhere to go and i sandwiched them and he didnt have enough time to rebuild a force (he tried making a battle lab, but i saw it and it was the first building i killed).

But even that is really hard to pull off, and he made a few mistakes. Overall there just isn't any practical , cost-effecient solution to magnetrons, and his mix of units is incredibly deadly.

[truefeel]

Yeh good job Apple. Things like outmaneuvring is what ultimately is needed to defeat a yuri player. Using splitters can work. Just be carefull with a player who gets to know about.

And yeh, also terrific job denying him tier 3 units. As long as he can't build masterminds and floating disks he can only do so much if you have a large force.

We should do a few games perhaps in the weekend?

[Statalyzer]

What you also can do on small maps is playing very cheap and alting his war factory with your miner. Now he can't damage the miner without damaging his own factory too, giving a great opertunity to quickly take out the war factory if you throw in a tank or 2. But like I said that's playing cheap and most online players would not appreciate it, even though it is not bug abuse and thus it stays within rules.

I never knew you could do that. It sure sounds like a bug.

[truefeel]

No, it's not. It just parking a vehicle at "the 3-row-cell step" of the war factory. If you do that and somebody shoots your tank, the warhead also lands on the cell of the factory, effectively damaging the war factory. You can see it as unforced forced firing your own war factory.

Olaf van der Spek, the one who is in charge of xwis, said it is within the rules (got to mention though he is kinda "in favour" for alting as he has been spotted doing it numerous times). Personally if I had anything to say I would simply forebid it, but b/c I don't have it ends there and the only thing you can do is add it to the "gentlemen rules".